MOE Relooking P1 registration - Too much priority to alumni
-
vicki:
if what you say really happens, then no more chances for 2B n 2C. N u consider it a cap to 2A!
How so? -
mum_sugoku:
Ok. Let me try to explain.
Er.. actually, except phase 1, there's a cap on every phases--including 2A. Just so happened that so far, the quota for P2A had never been filled up (ie no. of applicants under 2A were always < places allocated for 2A) so whoever applied under this phase had been successful.
Unless my understanding is wrong, the current system works this way:
Say a school has 300 places for Pri 1.
Example 1:
Phase 1 took 80 places.
Phase 2A1 took 60 places.
Phase 2A2 took 100 places.
We now have 300 - (80+60+100) = 60 places left to be divided evenly between P2B and P2C so P2B gets 30 and P2C gets 30.
Example 2:
Phase 1 took 80 places.
Phase 2A1 took 80 places.
Phase 2A2 took 160 places.
At end of P2A2, there are already 320 applicants so 80 from Phase 1 and 80 from Phase 2A1 will be registered but the 160 from Phase 2A2 will have to go through balloting for the remaining 300 - (80+80) = 140 places and this balloting will go according to distance priority.
For school in Example 2, since there is no cap for Phase 2A (be it P2A1 or P2A2) and all places are taken up by end of P2A2, there will no longer be any places left for Phase 2B and Phase 2C.
This is why some are suggesting for a cap for P2A to allow at least some or more places for subsequent Phases such as P2B and P2C.
This is my first time illustrating this system so please help to correct me if there were any incorrect info. Thanks.
-
dorisp:
There indeed is a cap on phase 2A as well. The related MOE site is unavailable at the moment so let's say the cap on phase 2A1 of the school in your example is 70, then
Unless my understanding is wrong, the current system works this way:mum_sugoku:
Er.. actually, except phase 1, there's a cap on every phases--including 2A. Just so happened that so far, the quota for P2A had never been filled up (ie no. of applicants under 2A were always < places allocated for 2A) so whoever applied under this phase had been successful.
Say a school has 300 places for Pri 1.
Example 1:
Phase 1 took 80 places.
Phase 2A1 took 60 places.
Phase 2A2 took 100 places.
We now have 300 - (80+60+100) = 60 places left to be divided evenly between P2B and P2C so P2B 30 and P2C 30.
Example 2:
Phase 1 took 80 places.
Phase 2A1 took 80 places.
Phase 2A2 took 160 places.
At end of P2A2, there are already 320 applicants so Phase 1 80 and Phase 2A1 80 will all be registered but the 160 from Phase 2A2 will have to go through balloting for the remaining 300 - (80+80) = 140 places and this balloting will go according to distance priority.
For school in example 2, since there is no cap for Phase 2A (be it P2A1 or P2A2) and all places are taken up by end of P2A2, there will no longer be any places left for Phase 2B and Phase 2C.
This is why some are suggesting for a cap for P2A to allow at least some places or more places for subsequent Phases such as P2B and P2C.
This is my first time explaining this system so please help to correct me if there were any incorrect info. Thanks.
for your example 1, since there are only 60 applicants under 2A1 (<70), therefore all will be successful.
whereas for your example 2, since there are 80 applicants under 2A1 (ie 10 more than 70), therefore balloting will be conducted.
However, so far, the scenario for example 2 (applicants under 2A > allocation for 2A) had never happened and hence, whoever applied under 2A had been successful lor. -
:thankyou: very much mum_sugoku, for clarification, as not many people realize that 2A has already been capped subtedly. Much appreciated.
:goodpost: -
Dear phtthp n mum_sugoku,
I give up.
I believe we are on the wrong frequency. Here we all talking abt capping 2A so that more vacancies can be ‘allocated’ to the 2B n 2C n there u guys are talking abt Yes Yes there is a cap cos not all applicants who apply in 2A will get in if there are more applicants than vacancies available in 2A.
Do u see the diff?
Mine scenario: Cap to free up spaces for 2B n 2C.
Your scenario: Cap cos too many applicants in 2A. Too bad for 2B n 2C cos after 2A is ‘capped’ n balloted for - there are no more vacancies left for the later phases.
Pls do correct me otherwise if I’m wrong but pls don’t quote me a ‘1977’ MOE policy cos we had just had a ‘healthy discussion’ on a ‘1990 policy’ or a 'school imposed alumni admission restriction (2a1) policy cos ‘if cant join alumni then go via 2a2 old boys/ old girls lor’.
Thank you. -
vicki:
Perhaps what Phtthp n mum_sugoku meant is there is a 'cap' but according to each school discretion while what Vicki propose is to reduce/limit of phase 2A intake? As we can see at balloting history that phase 2A intake for example at some bkt timah popular prm schools 2010 btw 27-36% of vacancies which is high enough leaving just abt 18-41% vacancies for the rest of the remaining phase.Dear phtthp n mum_sugoku,
I give up.
I believe we are on the wrong frequency. Here we all talking abt capping 2A so that more vacancies can be 'allocated' to the 2B n 2C n there u guys are talking abt Yes Yes there is a cap cos not all applicants who apply in 2A will get in if there are more applicants than vacancies available in 2A.
Do u see the diff?
Mine scenario: Cap to free up spaces for 2B n 2C.
Your scenario: Cap cos too many applicants in 2A. Too bad for 2B n 2C cos after 2A is 'capped' n balloted for - there are no more vacancies left for the later phases.
Pls do correct me otherwise if I'm wrong but pls don't quote me a '1977' MOE policy cos we had just had a 'healthy discussion' on a '1990 policy' or a 'school imposed alumni admission restriction (2a1) policy cos 'if cant join alumni then go via 2a2 old boys/ old girls lor'.
Thank you. -
limlim:
Why not look at it this way..verykiasu2010:
aiyo, really, wasting so much ink arguing on alumni
talk as if the whole singapore all got alumni problems......if anyone noticed at all, most schools alumni phase of registration are having few take up, really pak bang on those days of registration
Alumni priority is not highly regarded for most/many schools.. why not just remove it? :evil:
on the other hand..
Everyone wants the school \"to be\" at the doorstep if they could.
Some may appreciate alumni school \"more\" than \"the\" nearby school.. but that is their individual preference..
Fact is, for the sch that they attended, EVERYONE appreciates it to be nearby. Who doesn't like to attend \"a school that is nearby\"?
Never hear anyone complain \"This popular school that my kids attends is right next door.. so irritating.. better for it to be further away.....\".. No right? so, distance is ALWAYs appreciated.
On the other hand.. you may hear \"I'm not interested in the alumni school\".. OR \"My alumni sch which is so popular is so far away.. not practical for my kids\".. So, alumni priority is NOT always appreciated. (Of coz, the very rich alumni can shift house and buy the nearby house for a guaranteed place.. I'm talking about average SC..)
Hence, Which one should have more priority? Naturally, the one that serves the greater interest.. right? right??
\"Shorter travel distance is ALWAYs welcomed\" (regardless of whether it is valued over alumni)
FYI, Many average SC will move within 1km of branded school! Many of my friend moved just for their kids. One of them already alumni, still moved within 1km, Plus became PV, just to be triple sure that their kids go to Taonan! Another moved within 1km, N joined Hokkien Huay guan as member Just for the DS. :salute:
I myself also bought a flat within 1km of branded school! I m just an average SC and I think many like me do what it takes for our kids to get a better chance.
Dun underestimate what 'kiasu' parents will do just becos u r not like them.
If u read d newspaper even PR move near 1km of branded school, regardless of how slim d chances to get a place, of course now it's almost hopeless for them.
If it's just proximity n nothing else, I'll be very happy! But I just dun think that it benefits average Singaporean in d long run, b'cos I know that I'll be LOL$$$ if this ever happen. :imsorry: -
wow..it took me quite a while to plough through all the pages of discussion. Let me give a personal example on this alumni vs proximity issue:
I stay <500m from Taonan. Chose the place mainly for the freehold ppty, food, amenities and proximity to the East Coast Park. My son was not even on the cards when we shifted in.
I'm alumni of HIPS in Hougang (Nearest school to where I used to stay back then and my family is Buddhist). The main advantage then was the ability to walk to school within 15mins all by myself. Still remember vividly the secret little detours I used to take when coming back from school to see alternate sights, buy tidbits or just simply try to catch that elusive black/white fighting spider I saw among the bushes. My childhood memories are getting indistinct as one ages, but a few things stood out....I do not have to undergo tuition or any \"enrichment\" classes and that I do not have any school mates of other races I think partly due to religious affiliation of the school. Will I send my son back to my alumni?
To be frank, I'm not keen. I did fairly well in the PSLE for my batch back then but I'm not too sure if I am the exception rather than the rule for the school. Further more, I am now located much much further away, so the proximity advantage is lost on me. :skeptical:
My wife's primary school no longer longer exist, so she is officially Primary School Alumni-less.
Moving on to secondary school, I'm alumni of CHS (backward affliated) and my wife of NYGHS (not backward affliated).
Although I was in CHS for only 4 years, being active in student councillor (a.k.a prefect in other schools) executive position, NPCC executive position and other leadership roles, I was able to appreciate the school and it's culture on a deeper level than most other students. I have many school and class mates who raised through the CHS primary school section to the secondary section and I dare say I experience first hand the product of CHS Primary school system. Back then, there were the SAP classes (mixture of CHS primary alumni and students from other primary schools) and the Express classes (almost purely CHS alumni).
SAP classes:
My CHS Primary Alumni classmates were all well-adjusted and well-mannered boys. I'm not too sure if it is the product of being in the \"top\" class, all of my CHS Primary Alumni classmates kick my ass when it comes to academic performance. :boogie:
Express classes:
The express classes were invariably viewed and deemed to be of lesser capability. Although they were rowdier and tend to test the limits of the system and the discipline master's patience, they were still pretty tame compared to other neighbourhood schools' situation whenever we interact with other prefects.
Thus, I think I can say I am confident of the CHS Primary School's education, discipline and culture.
Personally, I think alumni priority vs proximity comparison is too simplistic, there are other factors that parents consider then choosing a school eg the program, cca, future secondary school choices.
For one, we would want our son to go onto the IP program and skip the redundant O level.
Some may think we are thinking too far ahead but here goes.....
--if we choose Taonan, we have to try to go in via 2B/2C route, but chances are slim despite us practically staying just across the road....so near yet so far.... AND Taonan do not have any secondary school with IP program affiliation.
--if we choose NYPS, we still have to go in via 2B/2C route, the chances are even slimmer because of the distance BUT NYPS is affiliated with Chinese High School and thus the IP program.
--if we choose CHS, we go in via 2A1 under the current system. Distance although almost similar to NYPS, the traffic condition during school rush hour is much better. Icing on the cake? CHS is offering IP program from 2013 :evil:
So, it's kind of brainless to choose CHS under the current pro-alumni system and frankly my son's education is not compromised except that he has to wear green shorts even when in Sec 3/4
Let's look at some of the popular suggestions on how to tweak the system:
1) Keep the current system, bring down the cap on 2A or abolish it totally to offer more space for 2B/2C.
----> I will not have guaranteed space for my son in any of the 3 choices anymore. Alumni priority is not my birth right, but I earned it by gaining entry into CHS on my own capability and I should have the distinct priority in letting my son return to my alma mater. If I decide for whatever reason that I do not want my son to go back to CHS, the space can then be released to anyone else interested.
2) Full revamp of the system giving space based on proximity.
-----> My choice will automatically be Taonan although that will mean my son will have to work harder to overcome the COP handicap when choosing a secondary school with IP program after PSLE. He will be able to walk to school and wake up later. And my property price will double in the next few years giving me the dilemma of cashing out or staying put....
Be it Alumni Priority or Proximity Priority there will rarely be one true winner....
From my example, when I give up my primary school alumni priority in HIPS, I open up one more space for those who live nearer to the school and the parents of the child who gets the space will be grateful to me.
When I decide to pass over Taonan, the parents of the child who gets the space in 2B/C for <1km will be grateful for the reduced odd during balloting. I would have wasted the premium factored in the buying price of my current property (despite us not choosing the location for reason of proximity to Taonan).AND, I do not call for the alumni/SHHK priority to be abolished just because I live so near and yet can't get my child into Taonan.
BUT, when I claim my priority in 2A1 for CHS, parents of children living <1Km from CHS will be cursing me because I will be taking away one chance for their children despite paying top dollars for properties around CHS. Should these parents call for the alumni priority to be abolished?
From what I see, it's all personal agenda. It's the MIW's job to balance all the different personal agendas. To be fair, I must say its not easy to meet everyone's expectation when issue at hand concerns their future generation.
That said, the system is transparent, the rules are fixed, play the game. If you are disadvantaged by the system, put in effort to correct it instead of shouting for change of rule to tip things in your favor midway through the game.
In the PARADISE SOCIETY condition where every primary school is the same and equal as officially stated by our dear education minister, this issue of alumni vs proximity priority will never surface because everyone will just go to any school nearby since there is no shortage of primary schools in Singapore.
Now, the stark reality is some schools are just that little bit more equal and just that little bit more coverted than others. So alumni parents will cling on to their dear life for this priority advantage while non-alumni parents are desperately trying all means to join the club. :siam: -
Hi veratenza,
Actually I hve another grouse which I hope the govt can look into.
Because u went to CHS in secondary (I presume) n CHS is a ‘full school’, therefore u will be considered hvg priority cos u are also a alumni. This will mean u hve priority into 2 schools.
I don’t find this ‘fair’.
Why should some schools be considered as ‘full school’ n some schools don’t?
U may argue that culture same etc or even that if a kid changes primar school (he would also hve 2 ‘alumni’ schools to choose from.
To this I say;
1) Alot of other schools hve same culture but not considered as Full schools - why the diacrepancies?
2) Number of kids changing schools (per school) each year is not overly significant unlike ‘Full Schools’ with one whole cohort of students graduating each year for ‘O’ levels.
Do away with ‘Full School’ alumni (2A) connections I say… -
vicki:
I guess some are just trying to create confusion to deflect the suggestion to limit the priority of phase 2A.Dear phtthp n mum_sugoku,
I give up.
I believe we are on the wrong frequency. Here we all talking abt capping 2A so that more vacancies can be 'allocated' to the 2B n 2C n there u guys are talking abt Yes Yes there is a cap cos not all applicants who apply in 2A will get in if there are more applicants than vacancies available in 2A.
Do u see the diff?
Mine scenario: Cap to free up spaces for 2B n 2C.
Your scenario: Cap cos too many applicants in 2A. Too bad for 2B n 2C cos after 2A is 'capped' n balloted for - there are no more vacancies left for the later phases.
Pls do correct me otherwise if I'm wrong but pls don't quote me a '1977' MOE policy cos we had just had a 'healthy discussion' on a '1990 policy' or a 'school imposed alumni admission restriction (2a1) policy cos 'if cant join alumni then go via 2a2 old boys/ old girls lor'.
Thank you.
If there is INDEED a cap, then its not apparent to me. Its certainly not stated on the MOE website and just to be funny, I called up my son's school (which is a popular school with more than 50% takeup rate at phase 2A (1 & 2) and they confirmed there is no cap. They will admit as many Alumni's child as there are vacancies available. And if its not apparent there is a cap and as what Blessed777 suggested, at the discretion of the school, then phase 2A is not transparent at all just like some suggested church, clan, GRL and PV schemes are not transparent too.
To avoid such arguments of who has more priority (its subjective anyway), just simplify and put all `connections scheme' like alumni, PV, GRL, Clan, Church under the same phase. If there are more applicants than vacancies, ballot. Also remove the `distance based' priority, let the parents decide whether to subject their kids to long commute time or not. This will also remove the arguments that `distance based' priority favours the rich and maginalize the average SC.
I'm sure, in the long run, it will reach a steady state where a lot of such arguments will no longer be valid.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login