Reddit forum : Is every school really a good school?

Reply to Reddit forum : Is every school really a good school? on Sun, 19 Nov 2023 05:51:27 GMT

Not_Kiasu — Sun, 19 Nov 2023 05:51:27 GMT

The discussion points touched on many raw nerves that are best left untouched as it’s too sensitive. Even the highly educated politicians want to siam the topic yet the commoners want to talk about it.

Reply to Reddit forum : Is every school really a good school? on Wed, 25 Jan 2023 01:28:06 GMT

bbbay — Wed, 25 Jan 2023 01:28:06 GMT

DPM Heng clarifies what “Every school is a good school” mean:

https://www.pmo.gov.sg/Newsroom/DPM-Heng-Swee-Keat-at-Raffles-Institutions-199th-Founders-Day

“…….Every School a Good School is about bringing out the best in every child. The mission is the same, but the context differs across schools. And we equip each school to achieve this same mission…..”

Reply to Reddit forum : Is every school really a good school? on Mon, 12 Dec 2022 11:31:26 GMT

sushi88 — Mon, 12 Dec 2022 11:31:26 GMT

pirate\" post_id=\"2091940\" time=\"1670821943\" user_id=\"66252:

Your post is much more informative and your opinion more balanced than the article in the OP. And not so wordy! :goodpost:

Also very charitable interpretation of parts 2 & 3.

I read parts 2 & 3 as rant, rant, MOE doesn't really care and is only interested in pidgeon holing according to social class, the system is designed to perpetuate the advantages of the upper class, rant, rant, garment bad.

My personal view is that every child IS different, with very different strengths and weaknesses, and develops at very different paces in very different areas. MOE now (as compared to say during my generation in the 1970s and 80s) realize that this diversity is actually a strength in the 21st century as Singapore tries to overcome the middle income trap. MOE is trying within available resources, to nurture every child to his or her or their potential in whatever diverse field or area the child's strength and passion may be, at a pace or method of learning suitable for the child.

MOE has moved well past the one size fits all mindset. Some parents, on the other hand, have not, and are still stuck in the must become doctors or lawyers mindset.

Of course it is and will forever be a work in progress, as the world keeps changing.

This is why I see parts 2 & 3 as pointless emotional stirring, rather than any genuine attempt to bridge the gap in expectations.

I agree with you that MOE has seen that while it is easier to group students of the similar learning pattern to teach them, they also recognise that diversity is also an important point as part of the growing and learning process, especially in the interaction and exchange of ideas. The best learning environment especially in life skills is actually not a homogeneous one. Personally, I would see learning values is also easier in a diverse environment than a homogeneous one. Managing a diverse setting is definitely more challenging for a teacher. Anyway, the subject-banding approach in secondary is addressing this now with a fixed diverse setting for common non-academic subjects and homogeneous setting for the academic subjects. And the multiple pathways to get to the U also offers options.

MOE, being the centre for education, certainly will hold a bigger picture to the trends in the labour market. Parents will take a while to embrace the changes.

Part 2 and 3 title suggested that they were problems so that kind of set my expectations that there would be no solutions.

Reply to Reddit forum : Is every school really a good school? on Mon, 12 Dec 2022 05:12:23 GMT

pirate — Mon, 12 Dec 2022 05:12:23 GMT

Your post is much more informative and your opinion more balanced than the article in the OP. And not so wordy! :goodpost:

Also very charitable interpretation of parts 2 & 3.

I read parts 2 & 3 as rant, rant, MOE doesn't really care and is only interested in pidgeon holing according to social class, the system is designed to perpetuate the advantages of the upper class, rant, rant, garment bad.

My personal view is that every child IS different, with very different strengths and weaknesses, and develops at very different paces in very different areas. MOE now (as compared to say during my generation in the 1970s and 80s) realize that this diversity is actually a strength in the 21st century as Singapore tries to overcome the middle income trap. MOE is trying within available resources, to nurture every child to his or her or their potential in whatever diverse field or area the child's strength and passion may be, at a pace or method of learning suitable for the child.

MOE has moved well past the one size fits all mindset. Some parents, on the other hand, have not, and are still stuck in the must become doctors or lawyers mindset.

Of course it is and will forever be a work in progress, as the world keeps changing.

This is why I see parts 2 & 3 as pointless emotional stirring, rather than any genuine attempt to bridge the gap in expectations.

Reply to Reddit forum : Is every school really a good school? on Mon, 12 Dec 2022 04:41:23 GMT

sushi88 — Mon, 12 Dec 2022 04:41:23 GMT

pirate\" post_id=\"2091909\" time=\"1670768433\" user_id=\"66252:

Good summary of Part 1.

But I still dunno the point in Parts 2 & 3.

Part 2 and 3 of OP's POV of the definition of the problem in the discussion between VB and CSJ which I can appreciate as his/her view of the discussion, which may not be exactly the same as mine. The key point made in Part 2 is Part 1's definition of a good school is different from what people think a good school should be....ie to include network, alumni, etc....which I infer should be referring to what he/she deemed as high value network/alumni because every school would have network/alumni anyway, right? In a way, part 2 explains why this \"slogan\" has been in debate for many years because of the mismatch in understanding and the expectations from Part 1.

Part 3's key point is to emphasize that wealth and privilege has an effect on the outcome of education, hence back to amplifying inequality of opportunities here which the slogan is an ill-fit.....again a mismatch of understanding.

So now I give my view of the problems stated. Many things in life go in a natural flow, this flow here has a bit of problem in terms of perception because of where the popular primary schools are located, so-called in the rich bukit timah belt. What people rant about is mainly the physical location of the popular primary schools, which is inaccessible to people living in the heartland unless one is an alumni or PV. In CSJ's argument of the list of secondary schools and JCs, I find them not-so-relevant because the entry to these schools are merit-based. Personally, I find it better for popular secondary and JC to be located centrally so that it is easier for students from all over Singapore to travel there.

Let's talk about the popular primary schools now. Yes, it is certainly something the government can look into to move all the popular primary schools to heartland area. However, based on the natural flow of things, the property in that area would suddenly go up and if it is a HDB-heavy area, then HDB prices will sky-rocket as well and in turn affect the rest of the HDB prices. When the rich has deep pockets, they would find ways to buy a flat there. In the end, HDB dwellers will groan and moan and that would affect a bigger population.

My personal feel is if the land becomes too expensive to house a school, most likely the secondary/JCs will move out of the Bukit Timah zone instead of the primary schools(just like RI and RGS were both \"booted out\" of district 9) because any residency area should have nearby primary schools to cater for the kids living in that area right? Or maybe move the popular primary schools out to heartland areas and build new primary schools in BK to reset the popularity indicator? Solving popularity issue is never easy....

Reply to Reddit forum : Is every school really a good school? on Sun, 11 Dec 2022 14:20:33 GMT

pirate — Sun, 11 Dec 2022 14:20:33 GMT

Good summary of Part 1.

But I still dunno the point in Parts 2 & 3.

Reply to Reddit forum : Is every school really a good school? on Sun, 11 Dec 2022 11:16:43 GMT

sushi88 — Sun, 11 Dec 2022 11:16:43 GMT

\"Every school, a good school\" is an intent by MOE as specified in the article. I find the article insightful in trying to explain the big picture of HSK which perhaps some people have missed during his running of MOE. People typically do selective comprehension so only his \"Every school , a good school\" has been picked over the years as a statement for debate. I am glad to know from the article that he has made 4 statements to his student-centric and values-driven education vision:

“Every Student, an Engaged Learner”·

“Every School, a Good School”;

“Every Teacher, a Caring Educator”; and

“Every Parent, a Supportive Partner”.

I see intent as slightly different from aspirations. We can always aspire for things that are sky-high, like being an astronaut, be a sky-diver etc even when we do not know if we are equipped to be one, it is an expression of desire without the form of getting there yet.

Intent usually comes with knowing at least the means of getting there. Like most of the things we do for our kids, I would see it as intent and not aspirations. So in the same way, MOE's intent to make every school a good school is something, on their part, they can make it happen as much as possible by means of
1. Advice to the school
2. Budget for the school
3. Staff strength/quality for the school
4. Infrastructure/facilities of the school

And the \"good school\" is centred around providing an environment conducive for growing and enjoying learning and wanting to learn as a lifelong skill. This is in fact the essence of learning. Not so myopic on good grades only. Good grades is just an outcome if the 4 statements above work in tandem. So good school is only 25% of the formula....and caring teachers another 25%.....the other 50% lies squarely with students and parents, in supporting as part of the edu-ecosystem. So every component is imperative to make student-centric, values-driven education work.

Reply to Reddit forum : Is every school really a good school? on Sat, 10 Dec 2022 10:36:36 GMT

pirate — Sat, 10 Dec 2022 10:36:36 GMT

Liew Nga Wing\" post_id=\"2091871\" time=\"1670665813\" user_id=\"195250:[quote=\"Liew Nga Wing\" post_id=2091871 time=1670665813 user_id=195250]
Why need to label the schools to be good or bad schools? It is also not fair to compare different schools as different schools may have their own specialities. As a whole, all should try to uplift the academic standards for all Singapore schools national wide and not concentrate on whether school A is better than school B.[/quote]

Sorry. Dun know. Apparently I missed the whole point of that lengthy rant the OP was referring to. :imanangel:

Reply to Reddit forum : Is every school really a good school? on Sat, 10 Dec 2022 09:50:13 GMT

Liew Nga Wing — Sat, 10 Dec 2022 09:50:13 GMT

Why need to label the schools to be good or bad schools? It is also not fair to compare different schools as different schools may have their own specialities. As a whole, all should try to uplift the academic standards for all Singapore schools national wide and not concentrate on whether school A is better than school B.

Reply to Reddit forum : Is every school really a good school? on Sat, 10 Dec 2022 09:00:50 GMT

pirate — Sat, 10 Dec 2022 09:00:50 GMT

tinker_bell\" post_id=\"2091868\" time=\"1670659874\" user_id=\"194652:

So we can come to a conclusion that \"every school, a good school\" motto by MOE is just an aspiration, it is not reality and it is not practical.

I disagree, unless people can name a few bad schools. MOE never said \"every school is equally good\".
:evil:

Reply to Reddit forum : Is every school really a good school? on Sat, 10 Dec 2022 08:11:14 GMT

tinker_bell — Sat, 10 Dec 2022 08:11:14 GMT

So we can come to a conclusion that \"every school, a good school\" motto by MOE is just an aspiration, it is not reality and it is not practical.

Just like how lee kwan yew during https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/in-his-own-words-equality-is-an-aspiration-it-is-not-reality-it-is-not-practical said in 2009 that the \"equality of men\" in the singapore pledge is just an aspiration, it is not reality, it is not practical and it will lead to grave and irreparable damage if we work on that principle.

Reply to Reddit forum : Is every school really a good school? on Sat, 10 Dec 2022 07:02:53 GMT

Liew Nga Wing — Sat, 10 Dec 2022 07:02:53 GMT

MrsKiasu\" post_id=\"2091671\" time=\"1670466926\" user_id=\"43981:

I tried to be better in this area..but was torturous to me that's why I believe I m quite a selfish person. Recently dh and I were chatting..I told him I really disliked feeling suppressed esp at work and dh says few times that's because.. you don't have to worry the financial part.. that left me a bit confused feeling if I m a little bit detached from the reality world. I feel I just want be someone able do what I want to do..maybe also a reason I give my kids more freedom?

Yes, I agree with your DH, going to work is to earn a living even I dislike lot of people and policies in my company.

Reply to Reddit forum : Is every school really a good school? on Sat, 10 Dec 2022 05:08:18 GMT

kaisuism — Sat, 10 Dec 2022 05:08:18 GMT

phtthp\" post_id=\"2091852\" time=\"1670646444\" user_id=\"35251:

MOE can post this relief Tr, to teach Lower primary, P1 and P2, since she is so enthusiastic !
But, not at P5 / P6 PSLE level.

(P1 and P2) :
long way more to go, before hit PSLE years

P1 and P2 students not easy to handle as they are still young. So I don't think MOE and school will assign inexperience teachers to these students.

Reply to Reddit forum : Is every school really a good school? on Sat, 10 Dec 2022 04:27:24 GMT

phtthp — Sat, 10 Dec 2022 04:27:24 GMT

Imp75\" post_id=\"2091845\" time=\"1670639205\" user_id=\"2358:

Yea every Sch has its fair share of different types of teachers but I noticed my kids pri Sch do focus their best teachers in P6 and in top classes only. My younger ones, they had English relief tchr for 2 terms in a row who is NIE trainee in P5. The tchr is enthu but lack experience to teach. I complained to principal and the tchr was switched out the next term. No choice cos the students were not trained to be in psle mode.

MOE can post this relief Tr, to teach Lower primary, P1 and P2, since she is so enthusiastic !
But, not at P5 / P6 PSLE level.

(P1 and P2) :
long way more to go, before hit PSLE years

Reply to Reddit forum : Is every school really a good school? on Sat, 10 Dec 2022 02:26:45 GMT

Imp75 — Sat, 10 Dec 2022 02:26:45 GMT

Yea every Sch has its fair share of different types of teachers but I noticed my kids pri Sch do focus their best teachers in P6 and in top classes only. My younger ones, they had English relief tchr for 2 terms in a row who is NIE trainee in P5. The tchr is enthu but lack experience to teach. I complained to principal and the tchr was switched out the next term. No choice cos the students were not trained to be in psle mode.

Reply to Reddit forum : Is every school really a good school? on Sat, 10 Dec 2022 00:04:42 GMT

mystique_j — Sat, 10 Dec 2022 00:04:42 GMT

I think all schools are good schools that MOE is preaching is more of the school being a good fit for the child, not just academics. Which is why ranking in S1 posting is important now. It forces parents to find out more about the school, and not just look at results or COP.

Now, if it’s all schools are good schools in terms of academics, then it’s a different story. LOL!
For sure, not all schools are good schools in terms of academics, based on my own experience. My kids are in a neighborhood primary school, in an area that has 4 other schools but somehow every year their school outperforms the rest pretty significantly in PSLE. Thus it has become the most sought after school during P1 registration.

I think it’s due to a few reasons.
The school has a good system in place, a good historical benchmark and standard to follow, and it continues on.
The Principal has been in the school for more than 10 years, so, he could be the reason as well. He is leaving, so let’s see if this reason valid. Lol!
The parents values good results, hence they MUST get into the better school. So the parents are more “kiasu” or more competitive in that sense and naturally will try to push their kids to do better.

In terms of trs, even though it’s the better school in terms of results, there are still the not so good trs. It’s just luck. Some years you get good ones, then less headache or work for the parents. Some years you get the not so good ones, then more headache or more work for the parents. My DS has had a fair share of the not so good ones, so I just need to monitor and check his work more closely (eg. the tr has a tendency to mark WS wrongly) - hence more work for me to ensure concepts are not misguided.
So every year we pray for the better trs…

Reply to Reddit forum : Is every school really a good school? on Fri, 09 Dec 2022 19:07:18 GMT

floppy — Fri, 09 Dec 2022 19:07:18 GMT

TL;DR.

In summary:
This school bad, that school also bad, every school (ok, most schools) bad.
MOE bad, principals bad, teachers bad.
Students all good.

Just lots of rant, scant details and very little matter of substance that’s actually useful.

Reply to Reddit forum : Is every school really a good school? on Fri, 09 Dec 2022 18:45:50 GMT

phtthp — Fri, 09 Dec 2022 18:45:50 GMT

another :-

https://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=17529&p=2091836#p2091836

Reply to Reddit forum : Is every school really a good school? on Fri, 09 Dec 2022 16:10:27 GMT

Zeal mummy — Fri, 09 Dec 2022 16:10:27 GMT

SG_KP1\" post_id=\"2091808\" time=\"1670578975\" user_id=\"188234:

Referencing a different level of education but many of the same principles / lessons apply...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/careersandeducation/i-was-a-college-academic-advisor-i-want-to-debunk-the-myth-of-the-dream-school-for-students/ar-AA153dBB?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=d57b711caf084305894799a47abe01db

Thank you for sharing, SG_KP!

Hi Phtthp, which school is that! ..

Reply to Reddit forum : Is every school really a good school? on Fri, 09 Dec 2022 09:42:55 GMT

SG_KP1 — Fri, 09 Dec 2022 09:42:55 GMT

Referencing a different level of education but many of the same principles / lessons apply...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/careersandeducation/i-was-a-college-academic-advisor-i-want-to-debunk-the-myth-of-the-dream-school-for-students/ar-AA153dBB?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=d57b711caf084305894799a47abe01db

Reply to Reddit forum : Is every school really a good school? on Fri, 09 Dec 2022 01:43:02 GMT

phtthp — Fri, 09 Dec 2022 01:43:02 GMT

Definitely, not every school in Singapore is good.

Lousy schools,
terrible schools,
also exist too, especially in the Secondary schools ! Unfortunately, this is a reality, harsh truth in life.

It all stem from the Leadership of the school Principal, and also VP, and HODs.
If they are lazy, only there to collect MOE monthly salary, don’t have a genuine heart to help students, even though the students themselves are hardworking, want to learn more, want to do well in their O level so that they can go to good JCs, yet these pitiful students become disadvantaged!

Yes, these students here are hardworking. They want to do well. They do want to succeed in life. They are willing to study, willing to be taught. Yet, the ironical thing is, their school Teachers now become a stumbling block, in their life.

Why ?

Because

Of the poor Leadership trickle down.
Since got office politics and Principal, VP, HOD not doing their job, what happen ?

Monkeys see, monkey do.
If they have this type of P, why should the lower level subject Tr, be hardworking ?

End up, the subject Tr are so lazy, don’t want to mark students’ homework answers submitted to Tr,
Rush through teaching, teach very little, students initiated ask for re-medial lessons but all these got turned down by the A-Maths subject Tr, instead.

Students themselves ask to see subject Tr for session to clarify doubts. Guess what the subject Science Teacher say, to the student who need help ?

"Sorry, I don’t give 1 to 1 clarification, alone to my student. You go and find 4 more students. Together, 5 of u come to see me. Then, I will clarify your doubts! "

Stupid, ridiculous answer, coming from an MOE Science Teacher. Shows that she (he) is so lazy, and no heart to help student who is keen to improve at all.

Tell me, how to find so many 4 other students, to go and see her (him) ?

Obviously, this Science Teacher is trying to make it hard, for this hardworking student to go and approach her (him) for help.

Any MOE official, here ?
If u are here reading this forum, pls kindly go and investigate this O-level track Secondary school located in the East, a missionary school, an All-Girls school, has affliation to CJC (Catholic Junior College). Of all schools, a missionary school, some more ! Sad, indeed.

The P is not doing her job.
HODs got attitude problem.
Pls go and check on all the Science, A Maths Teachers, at Upper Secondary. Please !

Students next year 2023, taking GCE O level National exam.
And all these teachers only know how to sit around, fetch monthly salary, every month. But they are not doing their job. In this school, no just one subject Teacher behaved this way, but many other teachers behaved likewise ! Something wrong, with this school.

1)
2022 Sec 3 A-Maths students :
More than half the class failed Sec 3 Term 1 A-Maths, in (Feb / March) 2022.

Come to mid year Sec 3 (May month), this consistent pattern repeated. Same thing.
Again,
more than half the class of 2022 Sec 3 students failed Additonal Maths again.

Parents,

You want this type of A-Maths Teacher, to teach your child?
In both (Term 1 and Term 2), more than half the class of Sec 3 students, so many, failed A-Maths !

If u say,
1 or 2 students failed A-Maths, that, we all can understand, can accept. But,
when more than half the class failed A-Maths, then something is serious, must look into already ! Cannot sit still, do nothing.

This A-Maths Teacher, a man school Teacher, is not even doing a proper job.
And when the parents become anxious, because their kids taking O level next year, and A-Maths is such an important subject. You know, if u don’t do well in O level (E-Maths / A-Maths), go up to JC, u can’t take H2 Maths ?

When these impacted ( affected ) parents / students request for re-medial A Maths lessons, this man Teacher, teaching A-Maths, simply turned them down. And when go up to HOD to seek help, this Maths HOD, a woman, also can’t be bothered. Tell me, If your kid is studying in this school, if your Maths HOD have this type of attitude, what will u do, as a mom or Dad ?

People like them, should not be teachers in the first case. MOE ought to sack them ! Substitute & replace then by good, kind hearted teachers, who are willing to walk the extra help, can do more, to help their students. After all, these students themselves initiated help for themselves. These students crying out SOS for help, in their A-Maths, Bio, but are callously being turned down, instead.

2) 2022 Sec 3 Science Teacher

Clearly, u know what this Teacher is trying to do ? He (she) is obviously

trying to make it difficult, for students to see him, for consultation.

When she (he) told the students to form 5 students, before can go to her (him) to clarify Science doubts, clearly, this Tr also ought to be sacked !

Because

Where is her (his) heart ?
If her (his) heart is not even there, to help students clarify doubts, then why should she (he) still remain as a Science teacher inside this school, in the first place ?

Because

Why, are u being paid?
You are paid, to teach.
That is your job !
But, are u teaching your students, properly ? No !
You are plain lazy !

Look at all other good Secondary schools.
What they do ?
Do their Tr need to tell students to "hey, please, go and gather Total 5 students first, before u can come and see me, to clarify your doubts ?"

No need, what!
As and when students have things to clarify, just proceed to book your own consultation session, with your own subject Teacher. This happened in all the good O level track Secondary schools and in the IP schools.

3) and in this school, when they teach, they teach so fast !
In one lesson, can finish one Sec 3 Bio chapter, when this chapter is pretty tough in content. After that, can ask students to go and take exam.

Lousy, wishy washy, crap teaching !!!

Reply to Reddit forum : Is every school really a good school? on Thu, 08 Dec 2022 02:59:45 GMT

Funz — Thu, 08 Dec 2022 02:59:45 GMT

It never crossed my mind to stop work. Then again, I know that I do not have the ability to teach kiddos so no point for me to stop work. My parents support whatever decisions I make, whether to work or not. MIL wants me to continue working, yet lay the responsibility of managing DD and DS's education squarely on my shoulders. She will tell me so and so's dd or ds got this or that award. Their mother do this or that for them, send them for this or that. I will just one ear in one ear out. When I had enough, I will loudly convey what MIL said to me to DH in front of MIL. That will usually shut her up immediately.

My role with DD and DS in terms of their academic pursuit is that of a facilitator. 1/2 the time I get totally lost when trying to navigate our whole education system so they are the ones who tell me what they need, especially when they started upper primary. Along the way, as they hit their teens I find myself being there more for their mental and emotional health rather than any of their academic achievements.

Maybe I have been lucky that both DD and DS are able to stay afloat and perform decently enough without much need for intervention. They are not top 3% or not even top 10% but they are not failing so I think they are doing fine.

OK back to the actual topic of this thread. Every school may be a good school but not every school is a good fit for every kid. I know 1st hand with DS, how he struggled at 1 school and how he flourished at another.

Reply to Reddit forum : Is every school really a good school? on Thu, 08 Dec 2022 02:35:28 GMT

ChiefKiasu — Thu, 08 Dec 2022 02:35:28 GMT

mystique_j\" post_id=\"2091667\" time=\"1670464763\" user_id=\"39431:

My mom was not so happy with me quitting my job.. she believes women shd earn their own money..
Recently when I told her my son’s PSLE score, her comment was “So you stopped work was worth it”
I guess it’s been bugging her the last few years..

I'm happy for you, but not every woman will have the same outcome. What if your child doesn't do well even if you stopped work?

The fact is, it is not within your control. You might think that stopping work gives you more time to be more hands-on with your child. That's probably true most of the time, but the psychological impact could have several outcomes. The best case scenario would be that your family becomes more appreciative of your sacrifices and hence your child will do better in order to make it worth your while.

But the negative case could be that your child might find your presence \"naggy\" and might even purposely slack just so you can change your mind and go back to work. Or you might feel bored and unappreciated after a while and forget about why you stopped work in the first place.

I think if you look around you, perhaps look at the other Forum members, you will see many examples of how some has succeeded in making the transition. Maybe it's a matter of befriending them, and learn from them how they do it. Together, we might be able to make more people successful.

Oops... I might be going out of scope