Can through-train school work in kiasu Singapore?

Reply to Can through-train school work in kiasu Singapore? on Sun, 09 Apr 2023 04:52:51 GMT

zac's mum — Sun, 09 Apr 2023 04:52:51 GMT

Veyron\" post_id=\"2104636\" time=\"1681011943\" user_id=\"30663:

Although the article is about happiness, it also highlighted something relevant, which is inequality.

In the context of education, the UK comprehensive, grammar system does favor the rich and hinders lower income a chance to get into good schools. And that is why those supporters say grammar schools is like liberators to help student from low-income family to become successful but give them equal opportunity to enroll in our prestigious schools.

So I guess our school system is not that bad afterall?

Inequality exists in Singapore. But people who are not at the “wrong” end of SES scale will continue to think it is not so bad.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/commentary/parents-children-education-socio-economic-status-2970186?cid=internal_sharetool_iphone_09042023_cna

Reply to Can through-train school work in kiasu Singapore? on Sun, 09 Apr 2023 03:45:43 GMT

Veyron — Sun, 09 Apr 2023 03:45:43 GMT

zac's mum\" post_id=\"2104632\" time=\"1681008223\" user_id=\"53606:[quote=\"zac's mum\" post_id=2104632 time=1681008223 user_id=53606]
https://www.todayonline.com/commentary/commentary-why-finland-worlds-happiest-country-and-how-other-countries-can-be-happier-2145806?cid=internal_sharetool_iphone_09042023_today[/quote]

Although the article is about happiness, it also highlighted something relevant, which is inequality.

In the context of education, the UK comprehensive, grammar system does favor the rich and hinders lower income a chance to get into good schools. And that is why those supporters say grammar schools is like liberators to help student from low-income family to become successful but give them equal opportunity to enroll in our prestigious schools.

So I guess our school system is not that bad afterall?

Reply to Can through-train school work in kiasu Singapore? on Sun, 09 Apr 2023 02:43:43 GMT

zac's mum — Sun, 09 Apr 2023 02:43:43 GMT

https://www.todayonline.com/commentary/commentary-why-finland-worlds-happiest-country-and-how-other-countries-can-be-happier-2145806?cid=internal_sharetool_iphone_09042023_today

Reply to Can through-train school work in kiasu Singapore? on Sun, 09 Apr 2023 01:18:21 GMT

Veyron — Sun, 09 Apr 2023 01:18:21 GMT

Grammar schools or selective schools have been around since the 16 century and it was only in the 1940s that the UK introduced the comprehensive system where students are not required to take 11+ (akin to Singapore PSLE) to promote to secondary schools.

After more than 60 years, the UK is still dealing with the controversies surrounding Grammar Schools and inequality in their education system. (we are not even talking about private schools).

Here is why

1) No escape from tuition
Under the comprehensive system, PSLE will become optional, which means primary schools will not prepare students for PSLE as part of their standard teaching program. For students who decide to take PSLE for Grammar Schools admission will engage private tutors for PSLE preparation. Which mean, parents with means will take advantage of the system to get into more prestigious grammar schools through tuitions

2) Location location
Under the comprehensive system, students will be posted to a secondary school based on their address. Supposed Singapore introduces a similar system, different sec schools will have a different catchment of students. This means schools located in the prime district will likely produce more outstanding results due to different social backgrounds.
And this will inevitably benefit students from a more well-to-do family
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/mar/01/england-poorer-pupils-face-exclusion-from-top-state-schools-study

3) Social inequality
Supporters of selective grammar schools in UK argue that Grammar schools will allow bright children, including those from disadvantaged backgrounds, to make the most of their talents. And this is similar to Singapore, if we don't have PSLE, it is likely that most students from low-income families will never can the chance to study in our prestigious IP schools.

4) Disparity in education outcome.
It is argued that grammar schools can deliver good results because teachers can push pupils harder, knowing that only the most able students are in the classroom. For instance, the percentage of grammar school pupils achieving a 9-5 pass in English and maths in 2018 was 92.9% compared with 44.1% of non-selective schools.

This is likely to be the case for Singapore between TT and PSLE route..

5) Earning inequality/Employability
Studies have shown there is possible earning inequality between comprehensive and grammar systems. This is to say employers may prefer students from 'grammar' schools over comprehensive.

Having considered the outcome of UK education system, will Singapore parents sign up for TT education if it's made available?

Will TT system level the playing field and eradicate Singapore's tuition culture?

Reply to Can through-train school work in kiasu Singapore? on Thu, 06 Apr 2023 04:27:16 GMT

Veyron — Thu, 06 Apr 2023 04:27:16 GMT

Chance upon this interesting article on how selective schools such as Grammar Schools in UK favor the rich.

Grammar schools benefit rich, says OECD
https://www.bbc.com/news/education-37364697
[quote]Entrance tests
\"But what happens in most European systems is that academic selection becomes social selection.

\"Schools are very good at selecting students by their social background, but they're not very good at selecting students by their academic potential.\"

When admission to school was based on a one-off test, he said, \"wealthy parents will find a way through it\".

But there were Asian school systems, such as Singapore and Hong Kong, that seemed to be more effective in how they selected pupils.

\"They are selective, but they seem to be very good at figuring out how good students really are,\" said Mr Schleicher.

But focusing on grammars and selection was not the way to raise standards.

\"I think the importance of grammar schools is dramatically overplayed,\" he said.

And there should be more investment for \"more schools that are more demanding and more rigorous\".[/quote]After reading this article, I am now more convinced that MOE has done a very good job in molding our education system, providing equal opportunity and leveling the playing field, and making sure our most prestigious schools in Singapore are made available for people from all walks of life, not just the wealthy.

In a certain way, we can say that every secondary school in Singapore is at least similar to Grammar school, where all students are provided with proper education to help them continue further education after o-level.

Guess compulsory PSLE is not that bad after all?

Reply to Can through-train school work in kiasu Singapore? on Thu, 06 Apr 2023 01:47:21 GMT

Veyron — Thu, 06 Apr 2023 01:47:21 GMT

zac's mum\" post_id=\"2104295\" time=\"1680737890\" user_id=\"53606:[quote=\"zac's mum\" post_id=2104295 time=1680737890 user_id=53606]
- MOE already allows parents to opt for homeschooling in the primary school years. I met one boy at an IP school open house who said he had been homeschooled so he couldn’t really answer my qn on the transition from pri to sec, does the teacher guide much less. But he was extremely competent & articulate in presenting and showcasing his impressive research project to me. I doubt he was heavily tutored.

- why is MOE still happy to allow max 1:40 teacher:student ratio in government schools? Worst ratio among developed countries & still so proud of our education system?

- on TT system, parents want MOE to look into the feasibility of it. Is MOE’s solution to taichi back to parents to cough up own money for kid’s private education? Really?[/quote]

According to what I read, there are around 50 students per level doing homeschooling and it's done on a case-by-case basis for different reasons.

I don't think MOE permits students to pull a child out during P6 to do homeschooling just to ace exams.
[quote]Exemption from compulsory education
Children who are required to undergo compulsory education must attend a national primary school regularly unless they have been granted an exemption. Find out about the different types of exemptions.
https://www.moe.gov.sg/primary/compulsory-education/exemptions[/quote]Under the UK schools system, the class size is ranked
Comprehensive Schools > Grammar School > Private Schools

In terms of facilities and quality education
Private Schools > Grammar School > Comprehensive Schools

Singapore may have a bigger class size, but at least, it's the about same for all primary and secondary schools, which means fairness instead of favoring the smarter or richer kids. (with the exception of GEP classes from P4 to P6).

Singapore education is very closely linked to the UK system since the time of Malaya in the 1800s. So there is no reason to believe that MOE has not considered TT system similar to comprehensive schools in the UK or question why UK still needs to have Grammar Schools and Private Schools instead of just standard comprehensive schools for everyone. Very likely between the government, they have also studied the outcome of students from different pathways.

On the surface, the UK system may seem more advanced and holistic as it doesn't make PSLE (11+) compulsory however in reality the system actually requires parents and students to sort themselves by deciding on which pathway depending on their economic and social circumstances. And different pathways will offer different teaching programs and syllabus catering to the academic ability of students instead of standardized programs for all.

For the UK, I think there is merit to having different teaching programs because besides lawyers bankers doctors, IT engineers, middle and senior management etc UK still requires the domestic workforce with trade and practical skills. And such skills are often covered in comprehensive schools program to allow students who are not academically inclined to pick up skills that are required when they join the workforce.

So lets us not make the assumption that MOE has not studied the TT system.

Reply to Can through-train school work in kiasu Singapore? on Wed, 05 Apr 2023 23:38:10 GMT

zac's mum — Wed, 05 Apr 2023 23:38:10 GMT

Veyron\" post_id=\"2104293\" time=\"1680737173\" user_id=\"30663:

In the UK, wealthy families are pulling their children out of school for full-time home tutoring in order to get into prestigious schools.

And the cost of hiring full-time tutor? around £35,000 ($54,400) a year.

Perhaps MOE should allow this in Singapore so that parents who wish their kids to get into IP schools can opt for home-schooling as 1:1 teaching could be more effective compared to 1:40 teacher-student ratio in government schools. And my guess is that students and parents from the top 20% income group will feel more confident and less stressed about PSLE as they can control how to groom their child to get ahead of others.

And this may also change the landscape of the tuition industry as more enrichment centers move their tuition centers operations to home tutoring. Leaving tuition centers more for \"mainstream\" students.

- MOE already allows parents to opt for homeschooling in the primary school years. I met one boy at an IP school open house who said he had been homeschooled so he couldn’t really answer my qn on the transition from pri to sec, does the teacher guide much less. But he was extremely competent & articulate in presenting and showcasing his impressive research project to me. I doubt he was heavily tutored.

- why is MOE still happy to allow max 1:40 teacher:student ratio in government schools? Worst ratio among developed countries & still so proud of our education system?

- on TT system, parents want MOE to look into the feasibility of it. Is MOE’s solution to taichi back to parents to cough up own money for kid’s private education? Really?

Reply to Can through-train school work in kiasu Singapore? on Wed, 05 Apr 2023 23:26:13 GMT

Veyron — Wed, 05 Apr 2023 23:26:13 GMT

In the UK, wealthy families are pulling their children out of school for full-time home tutoring in order to get into prestigious schools.

[quote]As most children return to school, many affluent families are choosing to pull their children out of the mainstream education system altogether in favor of having a tutor at home – particularly as competition for places at the most prestigious schools heats up.
https://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/11/education-why-are-the-rich-pulling-their-kids-out-of-school.html[/quote]And the cost of hiring full-time tutor? around £35,000 ($54,400) a year.

Perhaps MOE should allow this in Singapore so that parents who wish their kids to get into IP schools can opt for home-schooling as 1:1 teaching could be more effective compared to 1:40 teacher-student ratio in government schools. And my guess is that students and parents from the top 20% income group will feel more confident and less stressed about PSLE as they can control how to groom their child to get ahead of others.

And this may also change the landscape of the tuition industry as more enrichment centers move their tuition centers operations to home tutoring. Leaving tuition centers more for \"mainstream\" students.

Reply to Can through-train school work in kiasu Singapore? on Wed, 05 Apr 2023 13:24:49 GMT

Veyron — Wed, 05 Apr 2023 13:24:49 GMT

Whether Singapore can move towards TT education will depend on its merit vs the current PSLE system. A single thread or voice cannot alter or suppress its appeal if it is attractive.

What is very interesting about UK comprehensive system is that instead of making PSLE (aka 11+ exam) compulsory, they make it optional for students.

Supposedly if Singapore adopts the same system, PSLE will become optional instead of compulsory. Every student at P5 will be invited to take PSLE for enrolment to top-rank secondary schools that will only accept students that meet their respective PSLE COP. Students who didn’t make the cut or didn’t participate in PSLE will be posted to the "mainstream" secondary schools closest to home.

For high ability students whose parents can afford to pay more may choose more prestigious IP private schools such as MGS, ACS, SJI, RI, HCI, by taking competitive tests, DSA, and interviews. Individual schools will decide on the merit of each applicant before granting them admission.

If Singapore adopts the UK system, will it make Singapore education less stressful?

Maybe it will because there will be fewer students or parents dreaming about IP schools since they can’t afford them. If they don’t dream about it, they will not stress about it. While those who can afford it may find it easier to get in due to less competition, which leads to less stress. Suppose 20% of the cohort belongs to this group.

As for the remaining 80% I supposed 30% will get into top-rank schools while the remaining 50% will end up in the mainstream. For this reason, perhaps 20% of students may choose to skip PSLE, which leave just 60% of student competing for high-rank secondary schools.

Reply to Can through-train school work in kiasu Singapore? on Wed, 05 Apr 2023 11:37:13 GMT

zac's mum — Wed, 05 Apr 2023 11:37:13 GMT

pirate\" post_id=\"2104270\" time=\"1680694304\" user_id=\"66252:

I think when you started this thread you have already decided that the answer is \"no\". Then you went one big round and came back to say \"no\".

Ya man, I feel like I wasted x hours of my life contributing to a bogus discussion thread.

Some wiser forummers have used their time on better pursuits.

Reply to Can through-train school work in kiasu Singapore? on Wed, 05 Apr 2023 11:31:44 GMT

pirate — Wed, 05 Apr 2023 11:31:44 GMT

Veyron\" post_id=\"2104244\" time=\"1680667731\" user_id=\"30663:

As we can see from the UK system, there is no such thing as a level playing field or \"free lunch\". Those with more resources or those who choose to work harder for exams will get into better schools at an early age. At least here in Singapore, all our children are given an equal chance to try for \"King's Colledge School\" (aka IP schools) of Singapore without the need for rich parents or royal lineage and connections.

I think when you started this thread you have already decided that the answer is \"no\". Then you went one big round and came back to say \"no\".

Reply to Can through-train school work in kiasu Singapore? on Wed, 05 Apr 2023 04:08:51 GMT

Veyron — Wed, 05 Apr 2023 04:08:51 GMT

phtthp\" post_id=\"2104213\" time=\"1680607240\" user_id=\"35251:

Veyron,

Can ask u a qn ?

In the first case, dont understand why u bother to start this kind of thread ? I am sure there are other types of topic(s) under the sun, more worthwhile. Spend your precious time, on more worthy causes.

Just ask yourself this basic, fundamental question.
You look around, u know, inside that white party government, so many of them hail from where ?
Hail from
RI, ACSI or ACS boys.
Even PM LHL himself, also from an IP-JC.

Do u think white party will ever throw away PSLE ?
Of course not.
If throw away PSLE, then whose precious sons can get into

( RI / ACSI / Hwa Chong / National JC ... etc ) ?

Just answering this qn alone, u will know the fate of PSLE.
You think, the parents who are MPs inside this white party, are readily (easily) contented with sending their precious sons, to attend simple, ordinary \"TT\" schools, without \"putting up an intense, intellectual fight\", at PSLE, 12 years old ? Those who opt to sit for PSLE, will get into the better renown Secondary schools, first.

If indeed one day, \"TT\" schools were to come true, then those who choose to opt out of PSLE,
will have to wait patiently
until

ALL those who had taken PSLE have gotten a slot into a Secondary school first, before can come their turn next, for processing. Of course, those who had sat for PSLE, will have priority, to pick their schools, first.

Any other remaining, residual places left behind, inside these TT schools, because they had never sit for PSLE before, will have to take Internal admission tests, in the event demand exceed Total number of vacancies available, in each of the TT school

To answer your question, we may need to look back into the history of Malaya.

According to records, 2 of the oldest school in Malaya is the Anglo-Chinese College in Malacca founded in 1820 by Robert Morrison (London Missionary Society) and Raffles Institute, founded in 1823 by Sir Thomas Stamford Raffles as a Boys only school. In subsequent years in the 1800s - 1900s, many mission and Chinese schools were established in Singapore as well. This is to say, long before we have Singapore, many of these \"IP\" schools were already well established. According to NLB record, PSLE was first introduced to Singapore during the British Colonial era in the early 1960s, which was modeled after UK Eleven+ standard exams. PSLE is actually not a Singapore system, simply a different name for the British system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleven-plus

Why do so many \"White Party\" member come from IP schools?

Founding members of Singapore such as Lee Kuan Yew Goh Keng Swee S. Rajaratnam Toh Chin Chye Hon Sui Sen Lim Kim San E.W. Barker Othman Wok etc all have one thing in common. They are all Rafflesian who graduated from RI or Raffles College. It is almost like modern Singapore is created by RI school projects started by Lee Kuan Yew Goh Keng Swee Toh Chin Chye. And in the eyes of the public, these people have already set the gold standards for politicians.

On the opposite side of the aisle, we can also find politicians like Jamus Lim Hazel Poa, Leong Mum Wai, David Marshall, Chiam See Tong, Chee Soon Juan, Sylvia Lim, Gerald Giam, Daniel Goh, Dennis Tan, Louis Chua, Leon Perera, Paul Tambyah etc, who are all from the \"IP\" schools.

I think the interest and merit of keeping PSLE is not to favor politicians or rich kids but to ensure our education system continues to produce quality output and does not become segmented and divided where rich and poor will go on different pathways. Human capital is one of Singapore's most important natural resources.

In UK most students will go through government-funded education, where students will be posted to the closest school from home where they will take SATS at age 7 and 11, not for sec school posting but serve as checkpoints, And the students will take their first exam at GCSEs (o-levels). This is almost like the TT school, but not necessarily in the same school compound, which means property prices around popular secondary schools will become expensive, and this will inevitably favor the rich. Why this could work in UK is because they are less Kiasu. Just like why circle traffic junction can function in UK but not in Singapore.

Alternatively, students may also choose to go for better equipped and higher level education grammar schools for secondary education, by taking an entrance exam in year 6. If they do well, then they can choose their preferred school. This is similar to PSLE (but not at the national level) applying for popular secondary schools. e.g. ACS (I), SJI, MGS. which mean standard of entrance exam will varies from school to school as well.

And there is also the option of private schools like King's College School, where one will find the best education in the country, (maybe similar to our IP schools), but out of reach to most UK citizens due to cost.

If MOE follows the UK system, I think 20% of Singapore students will be in private schools (Perhaps with many PR and foreigners), 80% will be stressing about the entrance exam to get into Grammar school, and eventually, 50% will be feeling they have been \"left\" behind.

As we can see from the UK system, there is no such thing as a level playing field or \"free lunch\". Those with more resources or those who choose to work harder for exams will get into better schools at an early age. At least here in Singapore, all our children are given an equal chance to try for \"King's Colledge School\" (aka IP schools) of Singapore without the need for rich parents or royal lineage and connections.

Reply to Can through-train school work in kiasu Singapore? on Tue, 04 Apr 2023 11:20:40 GMT

phtthp — Tue, 04 Apr 2023 11:20:40 GMT

Veyron\" post_id=\"2104172\" time=\"1680588303\" user_id=\"30663:

Somehow I find our discussion about TT or skipping PSLE is very similar to a classic Catch-22 situation

1) At the moment, parents are stressed because of PSLE high stake exam

2) TT without PSLE, parents are stressed because P1 enrollment will be high stake, no exit option for secondary schools posting, and worry about no checkpoint for students before hitting O-Level

3) Optional opt-out of PSLE, parents stressed because secondary school options will be limited, worrying about making the wrong decision and possibly lowering AL COP standard benefiting PSLE students

So back to the question, Can TT school work in Singapore?

Yes, but no thanks.

Veyron,

Can ask u a qn ?

In the first case, dont understand why u bother to start this kind of thread ? I am sure there are other types of topic(s) under the sun, more worthwhile. In life, many things demand your attention & time.

Veyron,

can see that u are a very intelligent, hardworking, diligent & meticulous person. From the way u answered, not just this thread, but from other thread as well, can tell your character. Ignore this thread. Forget that u are this thread starter.
Spend your precious, valuable time, on worthy causes.

Just ask yourself this basic, fundamental question.
You look around, u know, inside that white party ruling government, so many of them hail from where ?
Hail from
RI, ACSI or ACS boys.
Even PM LHL himself, also from an IP-JC.

Do u think white ruling party will ever throw away PSLE ?
Of course not.
If throw away PSLE, then whose precious sons of these high powered MPs can get into

( RI / ACSI / Hwa Chong / National JC ... etc ) ?

Just answering this qn alone, u will know the fate of PSLE.
You think, the parents who are MPs inside this white party, are simply contented with sending their precious sons, to attend simple, ordinary \"TT\" schools, without \"putting up an intense, intellectual fight\", at PSLE, 12 years old ? The answer, is obvious.

If indeed one day, \"TT\" schools were to come true, then those who choose to opt out of PSLE,
will have to wait patiently lor
until

ALL students who had taken PSLE have gotten a slot into a Secondary school first, before can come their turn next, for processing. Priority, naturally will be given to those who had sat for PSLE.

Any other left behind, remaining, residual places, inside these TT schools, because they had never sit for PSLE before, will have to take Internal admission tests,
in the event
demand exceed Total number of vacancies available, in each of the TT school. Because
amongst TT schools, some are still better than others.

Unless ...
we are talking about those very un-popular, un-desirable TT neighbourhood schools, where Secondary school students' enrolment Is so low, so poor !
No P6 student want to go there to study. You hear the name of this TT school, students start to \"siam\", run far away. Until MOE no choice, have to step in to intervene, and start merging these un-popular TT schools. Then Yes, plenty of vacancies available, inside there. Don't bother to conduct any admission test, at all. Everyone is most welcome to join, these unwanted TT schools.

Reply to Can through-train school work in kiasu Singapore? on Tue, 04 Apr 2023 06:13:07 GMT

zac's mum — Tue, 04 Apr 2023 06:13:07 GMT

There are ways to make it work. Unfortunately the proactive suggestions which have been put forth by several parties (not just on this forum) have simply been shot down by naysayers and parties who have a vested interest in maintaining status quo.

Reply to Can through-train school work in kiasu Singapore? on Tue, 04 Apr 2023 06:05:03 GMT

Veyron — Tue, 04 Apr 2023 06:05:03 GMT

Somehow I find our discussion about TT or skipping PSLE is very similar to a classic Catch-22 situation

1) At the moment, parents are stressed because of PSLE high stake exam

2) TT without PSLE, parents are stressed because P1 enrollment will be high stake, no exit option for secondary schools posting, and worry about no checkpoint for students before hitting O-Level

3) Optional opt-out of PSLE, parents stressed because secondary school options will be limited, worrying about making the wrong decision and possibly lowering AL COP standard benefiting PSLE students

So back to the question, Can TT school work in Singapore?

Yes, but no thanks.

Reply to Can through-train school work in kiasu Singapore? on Mon, 03 Apr 2023 22:25:18 GMT

Veyron — Mon, 03 Apr 2023 22:25:18 GMT

sushi88\" post_id=\"2104138\" time=\"1680524999\" user_id=\"100857:

I would think you read every post more intently than others since you make this thread.
Parents are only one dimension, there are other reasons, obviously you have overlooked the post it was stated. And even if parents are the reason, there are varying situations how they contribute, not just unrealistic expectations and wants.

Why would I not believe you about how severe or competitive the tuition situation is for those who want to race in the affiliated group? Of course I believe. Also, where is the real stress for this group? Can't get into IP/IB can still get into the affiliated 'O' track. You are the one not believing :lol: there could be a group of kids who do not want to race but are being dragged into this race when they are not ready and not willing. I know some of these kids, just not sure how many nationally.

If your hypothesis on TT and affiliation helping students who wish to join the \"rat race\" later to be better equipped for exams (\"race\") at S4 is true, then I would expect students' academic standards or outcomes at ACS and ACS(I) to converge at S4 and produce similarly good O-Level results. Unfortunately, that is far from the truth and all ACS parents know that, and that is why ACS parents also need to stress over PSLE. Based on my earlier estimate, I would say around 50% of ACS primary students end up in ACS(I) Express and IB programs with PSLE scores ranging from AL4 to AL13.

172/510 = 34% (AL7-AL13) - Express
82/510 = 16% AL4-AL7 - IP

What does this show? 50% of ACS students are not happy because they got dragged into the race at ACS(I)?
And if I may ask, so what happens if the same group of students still doesn't wish to join the \"race\" at O-Level?

In a race, there is only 1 winner, and that is not the case for education. So please don't stress yourself up by calling it a race.

Reply to Can through-train school work in kiasu Singapore? on Mon, 03 Apr 2023 12:29:59 GMT

sushi88 — Mon, 03 Apr 2023 12:29:59 GMT

Veyron\" post_id=\"2104113\" time=\"1680518178\" user_id=\"30663:

Actually, our education system already permits that because students in Singapore, no matter how bad the PSLE result, will still be able to continue their studies and no one will ever be left behind.

So parents and students do have a choice to take PSLE lightly and cruise into secondary education. The only thing which bothers parents is secondary school posting because they know that if PSLE result is not good, they can't get into good schools.

So the problem here is not so much about the education system or MOE, it has got to do with parents' unrealistic expectations and wants.

Affiliation kids do have competition and stress too. In the case of ACS, they are all racing to get into ACS(I) AL13 COP, and IB programs AL7 COP, if they could. If you don't believe just take a look at the number of ACS, SJI boys at United Square or Bukit Timah enrichment schools.

I think its the parents who need thinking not MOE.

I would think you read every post more intently than others since you make this thread.
Parents are only one dimension, there are other reasons, obviously you have overlooked the post it was stated. And even if parents are the reason, there are varying situations how they contribute, not just unrealistic expectations and wants.

Why would I not believe you about how severe or competitive the tuition situation is for those who want to race in the affiliated group? Of course I believe. Also, where is the real stress for this group? Can't get into IP/IB can still get into the affiliated 'O' track. You are the one not believing :lol: there could be a group of kids who do not want to race but are being dragged into this race when they are not ready and not willing. I know some of these kids, just not sure how many nationally.

Reply to Can through-train school work in kiasu Singapore? on Mon, 03 Apr 2023 11:28:34 GMT

Veyron — Mon, 03 Apr 2023 11:28:34 GMT

sushi88\" post_id=\"2104093\" time=\"1680516027\" user_id=\"100857:

pirate is not OT la...he is just creative and has a good sense of humour.
He is actually on point than most.

Academic studies is the de facto path for all kids as at least primary school is compulsory education but it is not the be all and end all as pirate has stated.

No one says education is all that matters, we are merely discussing the merit and challenges of TT schools. Let's not take things too far into the future.

Reply to Can through-train school work in kiasu Singapore? on Mon, 03 Apr 2023 11:16:50 GMT

Veyron — Mon, 03 Apr 2023 11:16:50 GMT

zac's mum\" post_id=\"2104096\" time=\"1680517219\" user_id=\"53606:[quote=\"zac's mum\" post_id=2104096 time=1680517219 user_id=53606]
I do not know. But from what I recall, that page merely published a very high percentage of their O level students qualifying for any JC.

That is not a difficult bar to meet at all.

What would be more interesting is:
- what % of their O level students qualified for ACJC?
- what % of their O level students qualified for ACSI Y5-Y6?

But this figure is not revealed.[/quote]

From what I can find on google. if COP for ACSI IB is 5, I suppose 41 of them may have gotten in with 5 A1s.
Which is around 17% of the cohort. This is not easy as they have to switch from O-level to IB program with only 2 years runway before IB Diploma.
[quote]ACS(I) 2019 'O' Level Results
https://www.acsindep.moe.edu.sg › lp_announcement

ACS (Independent) students who sat for the 2019 GCE “O” Level Examinations received their results today in school. The cohort of 236 students achieved an average L1B5 score of 12.65 and improved the mean subject grade (MSG) to 2.53. 140 students (59.3%) have obtained 5 and more Distinctions (A1 and A2s) Among them, 41 (17.4%) achieved 5 or more A1s, and 102 students (43.2%) [/quote]

Reply to Can through-train school work in kiasu Singapore? on Mon, 03 Apr 2023 10:36:18 GMT

Veyron — Mon, 03 Apr 2023 10:36:18 GMT

sushi88\" post_id=\"2104094\" time=\"1680516773\" user_id=\"100857:

Better here is for those kids who maybe suffering in the system through no fault of theirs but drag along in the system just because 30-40% of the kids want to aim high.

We can always find a way to let the 30-40% soar and let the other remaining % decide if they want to join in the rat race at 12yo or later. The affiliation kids are given this choice, they join the race later. It's something MOE can think about.

Actually, our education system already permits that because students in Singapore, no matter how bad the PSLE result, will still be able to continue their studies and no one will ever be left behind.

So parents and students do have a choice to take PSLE lightly and cruise into secondary education. The only thing which bothers parents is secondary school posting because they know that if PSLE result is not good, they can't get into good schools.

So the problem here is not so much about the education system or MOE, it has got to do with parents' unrealistic expectations and wants.

Affiliation kids do have competition and stress too. In the case of ACS, they are all racing to get into ACS(I) AL13 COP, and IB programs AL7 COP, if they could. If you don't believe just take a look at the number of ACS, SJI boys at United Square or Bukit Timah enrichment schools.

I think its the parents who need thinking not MOE.

Reply to Can through-train school work in kiasu Singapore? on Mon, 03 Apr 2023 10:20:19 GMT

zac's mum — Mon, 03 Apr 2023 10:20:19 GMT

Veyron\" post_id=\"2104081\" time=\"1680507210\" user_id=\"30663:

Interestingly, not too long after I posted this link, the page is no longer available.
Not sure if this is a technical glitch?

I do not know. But from what I recall, that page merely published a very high percentage of their O level students qualifying for any JC.

That is not a difficult bar to meet at all.

What would be more interesting is:
- what % of their O level students qualified for ACJC?
- what % of their O level students qualified for ACSI Y5-Y6?

But this figure is not revealed.

Reply to Can through-train school work in kiasu Singapore? on Mon, 03 Apr 2023 10:12:53 GMT

sushi88 — Mon, 03 Apr 2023 10:12:53 GMT

Veyron\" post_id=\"2104080\" time=\"1680504947\" user_id=\"30663:

\"Better\" is subjective, different families and students find fulfillment, motivation, and purpose in different things.
So who are we to say who is right or who is wrong or conjecture about how other students study to get good grades or how should we live?

The only thing I know is the common here is the desire in parents to send their kids to good schools.

Better here is for those kids who maybe suffering in the system through no fault of theirs but drag along in the system just because 30-40% of the kids want to aim high.

We can always find a way to let the 30-40% soar and let the other remaining % decide if they want to join in the rat race at 12yo or later. The affiliation kids are given this choice, they join the race later. It's something MOE can think about.

Reply to Can through-train school work in kiasu Singapore? on Mon, 03 Apr 2023 10:00:27 GMT

sushi88 — Mon, 03 Apr 2023 10:00:27 GMT

Veyron\" post_id=\"2104036\" time=\"1680502081\" user_id=\"30663:

If you haven't noticed, the underlying interest or concern about PSLE, TT or affiliation is still centered around secondary school posting, about parent desire to send their kids into good sec schools without PSLE, or PSLE remains the most relevant exam to facilitate secondary school posting, be it IP or mainstream.

Like it or not PSLE = academic studies, so I think there is no point in going OT to discuss other matters since most agree that PSLE is here to stay, or debating if fish can climb trees.

pirate is not OT la...he is just creative and has a good sense of humour.
He is actually on point than most.

Academic studies is the de facto path for all kids as at least primary school is compulsory education but it is not the be all and end all as pirate has stated.