Is the current System still valid?

Reply to Is the current System still valid? on Fri, 04 Jun 2010 11:15:49 GMT

HyperKiasu — Fri, 04 Jun 2010 11:15:49 GMT

very few parents are that 洒脱 or 潇洒....

好妈妈胜过好老师, perhaps becoz what mum provides is best customized to suit darning kids' need...

Reply to Is the current System still valid? on Fri, 04 Jun 2010 08:16:24 GMT

tamarind — Fri, 04 Jun 2010 08:16:24 GMT

insider:
tamarind:

I have heard of parents saying that my girl's school is no good because kids have no homework. But I am actually happy that she has no homework, so that I can give her my homework : reading all the wonderful children's classics.

Emmm... I have heard of some parents saying those preschools that I am running are no good coz there is no homework. To illustrate this, one of my taken-oven preschool suffered a withdrawal rate of about 30 - 40% after the parents know that the new system will be very different from the previously very academic-driven one of daily homework.

All my three kids graduated from the same preschool of no-homework system with NO external academic enrichments (other than my daughter's 3 mths phonics). All of them have no problems at all coping with P1 just by eating the old rice fed during their preschool years (which I oredi find 'overfed' and therefore to give homework is 'overkill'). Many times, tuition for tuition sake and homework for homework sake. Though maybe 'comforting' for some parents (wow, preschool oredi got homework, 'standard' so high ah?) but can be meaningless work for the kids... (not all homework are meaningless, I hv to qualify that. Those that involved parents' participation in doing research / discussion together can be beneficial for meaningful cognitive/language development if their parents have the time and patience to discuss with the children.)

If I find that the homework is meaningless, I simply don't let my kids do.

I recently read an excellent book 好妈妈胜过好老师. The author wrote that she knew someone who took his daughter out of school for a few years, and let her read tons of good books. Later his daughter did very well academically when she went back to school.

Reply to Is the current System still valid? on Fri, 04 Jun 2010 08:10:30 GMT

tamarind — Fri, 04 Jun 2010 08:10:30 GMT

[quote]
Now that my girls are in upper primary, I don't know whether it is due to the education system or what, they no longer have much time for these. They have to stay in school most of the weekdays for supplementary classes and CCAs. Loads of homework means that they hardly even have enough time to sleep on some days. And there is so much focus on Maths. The teacher keep telling them: \"Ask your parents to get other schools' test papers to practise\", \"exam is coming\" - (indeed it is - 4 times a year and it is forever preparing for exams), \"do you have tuitions?\". I think they are much more busy than I as a working mum. It is like I am competing with the school for their time. Just last month, my girl suddenly say to me:\"I missed the days when we used to do those things together.\" What can I say: \"me too\"... [/quote]When my K2 boy brought back tons of home work to do, I threw it aside and said \"Forget about it\"

If I find that my kids' homework is too much, I will email to the teacher and ask her whether it is necessary to do it. In fact, my girl's teacher gave her a different set of holiday homework compared to the other kids. Her teacher asked the other kids to copy out the full text from story books, but she knew that this is unnecessary for my girl.

If a child does not do all his homework, but can still do very well in tests and exams, what can the teachers do to him ? Penalize him ? In upper primary, I am not sure if the homework counts towards the final grade ? Even if it does, doing homework or not does not affect PSLE scores.

I plan to let my girl continue in the same neighbourhood primary school until PSLE. I believe that we can teach her more interesting things at home.

Reply to Is the current System still valid? on Thu, 03 Jun 2010 14:31:36 GMT

littlecloud — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 14:31:36 GMT

tamarind:
I think it is impossible to change the system. But it is possible for parents to make the system work for our kids.

My girl is now in P1, in a neighbourhood primary school in Jurong West. Many of our colleagues were surprised that we did not try to put her in Nanyang, RGPS, etc. I am happy with my choice. I want her to be in a neighbourhood school where she can interact with children from all social classes, not just kids who live in private property. She almost has no homework. The school encourages students to read extensively, and do less assessment books. This is in line with my thinking. The school has no ranking for the mid year exams. They show the lowest, average, highest scores in all subjects, which I think is good enough.

I think it is fine to have exams. But it is totally unnecessary to rank kids in primary school. Parents are unhappy only when they start to compare with other kids. What is the difference between 95 and 100 marks ? I don't think there is any significant difference. The child with 95 marks may turn out to be a better adult than the child with 100 marks

Parents are stressed because of the competition. But education should not be about competition. Education should be about developing the love of life long learning.

Instead of making my kids memorize the multiplication tables, I allow them to do things like arts and crafts, origami, jewellery making, and even baking cupcakes and cookies. I am very happy when my almost 6 years old boy is able to fold a complex origami paper crane entirely out of memory, especially when it is a very tiny one measuring about 2 cm tall. I am very pleased when my 7 year old girl can make a pair of very intricate and beautiful ear-rings using tiny beads and wires. Both my kids are able to read long English novels before the age of 5. I make sure that they read regularly, not solely for the purpose of exams, but mainly for their enjoyment. There are fantastic and exciting worlds in the children's classics.

I have heard of parents saying that my girl's school is no good because kids have no homework. But I am actually happy that she has no homework, so that I can give her my homework : reading all the wonderful children's classics.

We can give our kids a good education, and a happy childhood, if parents can just forget about the competition.

Tamarind,
As a mum that once upon a time had been through the same as what you are doing now, I would say ENJOY them when you can now.
I once was like you - we read books like Our Island History (a very interesting story book about the history of England), we do geography by reading about countries and their capital and location, we do 三字经and learn about the wealth of knowledge in China, we do history timeline on China, we read Chinese writings to appreciate how simple words can be used to descibe things so vividly. As we read the books, we discuss and draw out how chariots with sharp blades sticking out from the wheels were used during the battle. They were in a neighbourhood primary school then, and in P1/P2. We were very very happy together.

Now that my girls are in upper primary, I don't know whether it is due to the education system or what, they no longer have much time for these. They have to stay in school most of the weekdays for supplementary classes and CCAs. Loads of homework means that they hardly even have enough time to sleep on some days. And there is so much focus on Maths. The teacher keep telling them: \"Ask your parents to get other schools' test papers to practise\", \"exam is coming\" - (indeed it is - 4 times a year and it is forever preparing for exams), \"do you have tuitions?\". I think they are much more busy than I as a working mum. It is like I am competing with the school for their time. Just last month, my girl suddenly say to me:\"I missed the days when we used to do those things together.\" What can I say: \"me too\"...

Light the spark,
Thanks for initiating discussion on this topic. As a start, I have a couple of thoughts on this:
(1) The most important thing on education, I feel, is to develop and nurture a love for self-directed learning.
I see my children having this when they are younger, but slowly turn off from the constant exams.
(2) At the young age in primary school, I thought it would be good for them to have a more broad-based education - learning about nature (and really going out door to experience them), sports, arts, geography, reading classics, music, social, etc. This I believe will help to nurture a love for self-directed learning, long after they left the schools.
I see my children's lesson focusing so much on a few academic subjects. I once saw my girl drawing a picture that depicts her Maths and English teacher as a monster, \"eating up\" all the other teachers' lesson on arts, music, PE. I don't know whether to laugh or to ...
Last night, I came across this Taiwanese show call \"百万小学堂\", and if that is representative of what children in Taiwan are learning, then I think we are far from it. Some examples:
(1) When using a fire extinguisher, which part of the fire do you target?
(2) When bouncing a ball, besides relaxing your wrist, which other part of your body do you use?
(3) When fireman went on assignments to put out fire, is that chargeable?
(4) How do you remove chewing gum that sticks to your clothes?
Isn't many of these life-skills? I am not sure whether we are preparing our kids for life. Not just to work and contribute to the economy, but also understanding and appreciating what is going on around their life.
OK... time to go back to reality ... like what Tamarind say - instead of worrying, do what we can for our children.

Reply to Is the current System still valid? on Thu, 03 Jun 2010 06:56:28 GMT

HyperKiasu — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 06:56:28 GMT

verykiasu2010:
HyperKiasu:

I disagree with No Homework No Good....
and i feel overdosing kids with tuitions is crazy and 夸张 if the purpose is to maintain grade/rankings....
some use it to learn further than the school and to prepare for competition....these should be \"enrichment\" instead of generally said as \"tuition\"

for example, math olympiad training...
MO training is CCA not enrichment not tuition... :lol:

Reply to Is the current System still valid? on Thu, 03 Jun 2010 06:24:35 GMT

verykiasu2010 — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 06:24:35 GMT

HyperKiasu:

I disagree with No Homework No Good....
and i feel overdosing kids with tuitions is crazy and 夸张 if the purpose is to maintain grade/rankings....

i think there is quite a bit of over generalisation here

\"tuition\" is different thing to different people

some use tuition to catch up with the school's pace, and to reinforce topics that are not clearly mastered by the kids

some use it to learn further than the school and to prepare for competition....these should be \"enrichment\" instead of generally said as \"tuition\"

to each his / her own

but in today's education landscape, to \"excel\" means to have to go more in depth than the crowd .... there are many kids who thrive on challenges

Reply to Is the current System still valid? on Thu, 03 Jun 2010 06:15:15 GMT

verykiasu2010 — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 06:15:15 GMT

I may be mistaken, but I thought : the top 1% is GEP (we all know) and the next 4% is now High Ability Learners ?

MOE website under GEP section have some info on the HAL although it is not as extensive as the GEP. Based on selection tests, various modules previously exclusively available to GEP are now available to HAL. (the MOE website did not specifically mention the "4%". the 4% is "derived" from various activities from certain classes anecdotes …)

Reply to Is the current System still valid? on Thu, 03 Jun 2010 06:13:24 GMT

HyperKiasu — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 06:13:24 GMT

tamarind:

Parents are stressed because of the competition. But education should not be about competition. Education should be about developing the love of life long learning..

agree! :celebrate:
Perhaps parents need to learn how to manage the stress?
Competition might not be detrimental...
what is failure, what is success? different ppl different interpretation....

tamarind:
I have heard of parents saying that my girl's school is no good because kids have no homework. But I am actually happy that she has no homework, so that I can give her my homework : reading all the wonderful children's classics.

I disagree with No Homework No Good....
and i feel overdosing kids with tuitions is crazy and 夸张 if the purpose is to maintain grade/rankings....

Reply to Is the current System still valid? on Thu, 03 Jun 2010 04:57:55 GMT

corneyAmber — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 04:57:55 GMT

Actually one of the areas that is constantly changing in Singapore is its education system other than its transportation. These are two highly volatile ministries. :lol: Like a corporate, every new year, there would be announcements of some changes, hence it has evolved to be what it is today and I am still trying to keep up with it. :lol:

I suppose the key question on its current validity is only the exam system which remains stoicly unchanged, whether it is the best way to assess majority of the children. I would give a resounding yes for the majority. Again, I would emphasize that we should not try to make changes for the minority across the board for the majority. It is both a dream and a nightmare to build a society of all \"thinkers\". There will be mavericks on the street and we have to pay even more tax to keep things under control.

I suppose the key question is how to assess those with potential as \"thinkers\". MOE has already carved out 1% of those. The next question is, how about the other top 7%(I don't remember the previous rationale why top 8% was selected for SAP programme but I am just using back the same top 8% criteria). The top 1% is already taken care of because entering a good school is NOT entirely based on their PSLE results, their special brain has opened the special door for them.

Currently the top 7% is placed in the same rung as the 92% in terms of training and opportunities, hence deemed as not training as a \"thinker\" but as a \"doer\".

This top 7% now relies on parents' enrichment and likely the group who contributes the most to the enrichment business today.

While many may complain about streaming kids early and all(you cannot have your cake and eat it)....I suppose this 7% should welcome that, it is a form of filter to figure out if a different learning pedagogy+assessment is required for this group to be the next level of \"thinkers\". However, from what I know, the % may not be at 7 only, some schools take their own steps to groom this group of kids, therein lies the value-add of a school. So if MOE wants to take up the task they can (a) to standardize (b)to move it into more \"thinker\" modules instead of drilling for good grades alone, currently this is the differentiation for schools, not the branded or elite but the \"kiasu\" schools. The current efforts by the individual schools may also appear haphazard and confusing to parents, hence all the hues and cries. If MOE is willing to take this up, I am more than happy already. Having said this, the top 9-15% will become the next group to strive to be in this top 7% and the vicious chain of criticism will start all over again for MOE. :lol: :lol: :lol: Well, no criticism no progress as in no pain no gain???

If they are successful in this, they can use their experience to decide how to cascade this down to the 92% who can benefit from some required parts of the programme that is applicable to the majority.....then a well-established approach will render lesser glitches in its implementation.

Reply to Is the current System still valid? on Thu, 03 Jun 2010 03:15:17 GMT

LightingtheSpark — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 03:15:17 GMT

insider:
LightingtheSpark,

I don't spend my energy and time in trying to do anything for the existing mainstream education system anymore though I am still doing whatever I can to create a 'nightmare' to some of these parents - to fight for a compulsory admission of x% of special needs children in EVERY class in EVERY school (up from preschools / kindergartens onwards).

To Insider:

I see. I appreciate what you are doing. Exposure can be beneficial to both special needs children and mainstream children. It will probably help to develop a kinder and more accepting society.

Out of curiosity, do you know how many special needs children are born every year in Singapore? How many are there in the special needs schools right now? How many are in mainstream schools right now? How are the kids segmented in terms of severity of conditions /etc? Perhaps a transition step to your target could be to get some in first?

Reply to Is the current System still valid? on Thu, 03 Jun 2010 01:57:44 GMT

tamarind — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 01:57:44 GMT

I think it is impossible to change the system. But it is possible for parents to make the system work for our kids.

My girl is now in P1, in a neighbourhood primary school in Jurong West. Many of our colleagues were surprised that we did not try to put her in Nanyang, RGPS, etc. I am happy with my choice. I want her to be in a neighbourhood school where she can interact with children from all social classes, not just kids who live in private property. She almost has no homework. The school encourages students to read extensively, and do less assessment books. This is in line with my thinking. The school has no ranking for the mid year exams. They show the lowest, average, highest scores in all subjects, which I think is good enough.

I think it is fine to have exams. But it is totally unnecessary to rank kids in primary school. Parents are unhappy only when they start to compare with other kids. What is the difference between 95 and 100 marks ? I don't think there is any significant difference. The child with 95 marks may turn out to be a better adult than the child with 100 marks

Parents are stressed because of the competition. But education should not be about competition. Education should be about developing the love of life long learning.

Instead of making my kids memorize the multiplication tables, I allow them to do things like arts and crafts, origami, jewellery making, and even baking cupcakes and cookies. I am very happy when my almost 6 years old boy is able to fold a complex origami paper crane entirely out of memory, especially when it is a very tiny one measuring about 2 cm tall. I am very pleased when my 7 year old girl can make a pair of very intricate and beautiful ear-rings using tiny beads and wires. Both my kids are able to read long English novels before the age of 5. I make sure that they read regularly, not solely for the purpose of exams, but mainly for their enjoyment. There are fantastic and exciting worlds in the children's classics.

I have heard of parents saying that my girl's school is no good because kids have no homework. But I am actually happy that she has no homework, so that I can give her my homework : reading all the wonderful children's classics.

We can give our kids a good education, and a happy childhood, if parents can just forget about the competition.

Reply to Is the current System still valid? on Thu, 03 Jun 2010 01:44:53 GMT

tamarind — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 01:44:53 GMT

Read what the PM has to say.

http://www.pmo.gov.sg/News/Transcripts/Prime+Minister/Elite+school+or+not+doesnt+matter+PM.htm

Elite school or not doesn't matter: PM
Success hinges more on what one makes of the opportunities given
By Cassandra Chew

FOR 20 years, the display band of Bowen Secondary School in Hougang has been top of the pops.

Next month, the neighbourhood school is set to march into the spotlight again, when its band becomes a star attraction at the opening ceremony of the annual Singapore Youth Festival.

Its achievements are not lost on Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong, who held it up before 500 pre-university students yesterday when he stressed to them that their future success did not hinge on going to an elite school. It pivots on what they make of the opportunities they are given.

'Our education system provides something for everyone, not just in a few top schools, but in many good schools and JCs all over Singapore,' he said at the annual Pre-University Seminar at the University Cultural Centre.

Bowen, for instance, spares no expense in giving the best education to its band members, he noted.

Instructors are flown in from Japan and key members are sent to receive training alongside a famous band in Nagoya.

The school illustrates his point that good teaching, a varied curriculum and a wide range of activities are available in every school across the island, and not just 'elite' ones.

PM Lee's remarks were spurred by a debate in The Straits Times Forum pages on the stiff competition to enter elite junior colleges, or JCs.

He highlighted two letters.

One had a student arguing that those in non-elite JCs, which also offer solid education, have ample chances to do well if they put in the effort.

The other, from a Pioneer JC alumnus, pointed out that being in an elite JC is no indicator of future success.

The writer also said no JC in Singapore is inferior and that success should not be defined solely as getting into top schools.

PM Lee agreed with the letter writers, a nod of approval that resonated with many of the students.

Delia Toh from Raffles Institution said many parents feel 'anything outside of academic achievements is sort of a waste of time'. She asked what could be done to correct the mindset.

PM Lee said it is up to parents to believe that there are many places where students can get a good education.

'I believe it,' he added, pointing out that Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew attended the 100th birthday of his alma mater, Telok Kurau Primary School, to remind people that one does not have to go to a good school to do well.

'What counts, as the Pioneer JC alumnus said, is what you do with your life and that's quite fundamental,' he said.

Li Yi Jia from Dunman High asked how Singapore can progress as a meritocratic society without elitism rearing its ugly head.

By ensuring Singapore keeps its doors open for the talented and capable to contribute, PM Lee replied.

'That's one of the reasons we want to make sure all our schools are good schools... you don't have to go to the best school in Singapore or the most popular school in Singapore in order to get ahead,' he said.

Reply to Is the current System still valid? on Thu, 03 Jun 2010 01:05:39 GMT

LightingtheSpark — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 01:05:39 GMT

Verykiasu2010,

I do not have a ready proposal but am trying to think of one. I said this early on. And perhaps with the help of readers and members of this excellent website/forum, maybe we will get lucky in coming up with one.

I am not saying that there is no alternative. I am saying that there is no easy and ready alternative. We need to think it over, starting from first principles, and try to design a better System. Or would you rather just leave it to the Authorities? Maybe they need help from the people who care most? ie the Parents who want the best for their children? Maybe they face constraints as insider suggested? Or do you believe that it is just better to “leave it to the experts”? I personally would continue to question the experts. They have been trying, but it is still not good enough.

I stick by what I said about Tuition. Insider made a good point about tuition potentially delaying the tipping point where your child can learn independently. I agree with that. What seems to be missing in our System is the focus on helping our children find their passion and helping them Light that Spark, which will initiate an unstoppable process of lifelong Continual Learning and Continual Improvement. That in my opinion, is the most important role of an Education System.

I do not come from Utopia. I do not believe in Utopia. I am as practical a person as you will find.

Peverse internet penetration? This was a typo and I apologise. My ang moh is not perfect and it was way past my bedtime. I meant to say “pervasive” (widespread) instead of “perverse”. I have corrected this error. Thanks for pointing it out.

I agree that exams must stay. But I think they need to be tweaked. It’s not easy because we must also be concerned about its recognition at a global level (overseas universities and employers).

Mrswongtuition,

Thanks for your frank feedback. I agree with your hubby – no point worrying (and just whining), we must do something about it. I am trying to do something about it. Step one for me is to better understand the situation and to engage with other parents.

You made a good point about needing to build a support system for the child. I will keep that in mind. Maybe I am thinking too much about the larger Education System and should just focus on my boy alone. But maybe I will try doing both together.

I sincerely understand the current situation where most families have 2 working parents. I think tuition and enrichment centres do have a role in our society. I just think that parents may be misled into thinking that (1) it is definitely useful and a must-have, regardless of your child’s personal needs and wants, and (2) that since I sent my child to tuition, I have done all I can, and can do no more. There is much more that the parents can do. And what I really feel sorry about is the existence of Predator Tuition Teachers who prey on the situation, who don’t really do a good job but still continue to suck precious $ from willing parents.

Am I going to write some form of proposal? I did consider doing that and am not ruling it out. But I do need to better understand this topic from various perspectives first. I think it is a big project that may take a couple of years on a part-time basis. I ask that the KSP community keeps this thread going with ideas and perspectives on how to approach this issue. In the months ahead, once we get enough stuff, maybe I will then sit down to summarize and develop some structure to addressing the issue.

Insider,

I am curious about your nickname… are you truly an “insider”? : p

Civil Service careers do have their qwerks and processes are often not the most efficient. This is well-known and undisputable. Herein lies the problem. Even well-intentioned smart individuals within the organization might feel bounded by institutional constraints and eventually have their fire put out and conform to the organizational culture, which may not be conducive for true and positive change. All organizations face the same problem. When it comes to something as important as our children and their education, this becomes quite a shame. I think the time has come to not just pay lip service anymore. We have a real need to change and probably a real opportunity to do so, given how Government agencies are now much more receptive to feedback and open to public engagement.

You want to increase productivity? Then start with the mindsets of people. Start with helping them find their passion. Start with helping to instill “hunger” in them. Stop making things cushy and giving people the wrong impression that there is a “correct path” to take when educating our kids. There isn’t.

Mocharita,

I envy you. I think it is an excellent thing for your kids to be so curious. Keep the curiosity burning in them.

One last thought before I keep quiet for the next few days…

Do you think the better students who score better in their exams (primary to pre-U) go on to do better in life?

I think - not necessarily so. Though, based on common sense, it is probably still true from a big picture view. But I only have my group of ex-classmates and friends to draw this conclusion from. Good students may end up in lesser jobs and roles than those who did not do as well in school. But from my small sample group, I can tell you one thing. Those who got to do what they love doing are ALL doing well in their jobs and are much more happy about their lives. “Good grades in school do not guarantee future success and happiness”. We, as parents, should keep this in mind.

Reply to Is the current System still valid? on Wed, 02 Jun 2010 19:12:53 GMT

mocharita — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 19:12:53 GMT

insider:
mocharita:
some parents really need to be tutored instead.

Easy to teach children but very very difficult to educate parents. The herd instinct and kiasuism, the need to buy 'insurance' (via tuition) for 'just-in-case' scenario, the need to do the 'BEST' that they can do for their kids, etc. Those are not easy to shake off. 宁可杀错、不可放过approach towards their kids' academic journey.

Average number of subjects my daughter's classmates had for tuitions is two. Her best friend got FOUR!!! Her best friend from what I see is brighter than her and both parents are lecturers who actually 'bribed' her best friend with extra pocket money for her to go to her tuitions 'dutifully' (now she is in Hwa Chong and still 'tuitioning' as usual).

Don't compare lor.

Enjoy your daughter from now till she's in her 20's. You will be surprised when she comes to you for an expected question. Everyday, my kid asks me and challenge me questions. Honestly, at times I googled for the answers.

Hwa Chong or Chong Pang are not important at all. Obviously, we want our kids to go to the 'best' school. If they can't be there, what are we goin to do?? Slit our neck infront of them? NO, right?!?

Teach them to make the best out of it and as parents, all we have to do is to watch, watch, watch and correct them. Parenting is never easy.

Reply to Is the current System still valid? on Wed, 02 Jun 2010 17:46:38 GMT

mocharita — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 17:46:38 GMT

insider:
The system here will not change. PERIOD.

People who dare to change must be able to think out of the box and be willing to take risk but those in MOE likely to just kwai kwai not to rock to boat as any mis-step will become a 千古罪人。 Better just kwai kwai day in day out do similar things...if there's going to be any change, better someone proposes and does it and not me... safe...stable...

Out of 10 kids, probably 2.5 of them really need it. Tuition for the rest of the 7.5 kids are more or less a waste of money, time and health of these children and it harms the child's psyche (as in unable to learn independence earlier). It really puzzled me but I gotta be 见怪不怪 when my daughter's Sec 4 'elite' class has a tuition rate of above 90%. Ａｌｌ these bright kids, why can't their parents just have more faith in them that they can study on own without crutches? (my daughter only has 6 months tuition in her Japanese language prior to O level, other than that, it's nil tuition from P1 till now.) Some parents really tuition for tuition sake...

Agreed!

There are kids who genuinely need tuitions but alot don't at all. You are spot on, some parents really need to be tutored instead.

Reply to Is the current System still valid? on Wed, 02 Jun 2010 17:42:28 GMT

mocharita — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 17:42:28 GMT

mrswongtuition:
verykiasu2010:

the day Singapore does away with exams will be the downfall. Ample examples from neighbouring country where they make it easy for the bumi to move on the grades by lowering the standard. they graduate without knowing what they have learnt.
Eh, I know of someone from a neighbouring country, graduated with equivalent to our 'O' Levels, can't read or write English at all. Even in his native language, he can't read well. Do we want that to happen to our kids?

Being a mother to a 3yo boy and someone who has first hand experience with the local school system, I would have to agree with you. Doing away with exams will be the downfall.

If we remove the exams...
Are the kids mature enough to know that they are learning for their own sakes?
Without exams, 90% of them would not even bother to pay attention in class, do their homework, revise what they have learnt, etc.

Exams are necessary. However, changes can be made. More can be done to ensure fair testing (teachers must have taught the concept and technique before testing the children). Concepts that students are expected to know must be spelt out clearly and given to parents in advance.

Also, we cannot push education to the school/teachers only. We, as parents, also have to take responsibility in their learning.
I do not agree with certain things in the current education system. What can I do? Educate my boy my preferred way at home. MOE is promoting 'soft skills' now. How can schools enrich their 'soft skills' when there's limited leadership positions for all to try out? Parents can step in and give opportunities from home or create them outside home through religious classes, enrichment classes, etc. Even through informal playgroups with cousins/other relatives/friends.

Instead of worrying about our education system (unless you intend to type out a proposal with evidence of success to back up to submit to MOE), maybe you should be more concerned about how you are going to build a strong support system for your child. Parenting styles need to be discussed and agreed upon with your spouse too. Parenting is not just about academic education. Before you frustrate yourself with this issue, you have to arm yourself with knowledge on breastfeeding, weaning, common childhood illnesses, vaccinations, surviving the 'terrible twos', discipline, social interaction, sleeping patterns, etc etc.

It's nice to see parents concerned and thinking about their kids' education, but sometimes, we think too much. I admit - I get paranoid at times wondering if sending my boy to my hub's alma mater will do him good or harm. I get paranoid about his current kindy not teaching enough to prepare him for primary school. It's unavoidable for us to worry. My hubs told me to stop worrying and start brainstorming for solutions instead So I'm spending alot more time with him, playing and learning together through games and physical play.

Btw, you must understand that most parents are busy earning money for the family's daily expenses. Not all of them can afford to stay home with their kids though they may love to.
Not all of them are equipped with the knowledge or the 'know-how' to help their kids academically. Tuition and enrichment centres are to help the kids. Many kids I know of actually requested for the lessons as they have a competitive spirit too. I personally feel that if the kids enjoy it, it's no harm done. Like my boy, he'll beg us to take him to his phonics class when we are in that area. He loves it so much we could not bear to stop that class although they are shifting and it will be rather inconvenient to drive to their other centre.

If you are going to write a proposal to MOE, do share with us too. I'm sure parents here will give support to a proposal that will benefit the future generations.

Eeeieks! Why are you comparing with neighboring countries??? Why do you have to compare with the lower ones to make your points known?

You said, ‘Without exams,
90% of them would not even bother to pay attention in class, do their homework, revise what they have learnt, etc. Ho ho ho.., that’s means only 10% from the school will do well without homework, revisions or what they have learnt from teachers??

Blimey! No wonder tuition fees are extremely high!

Reply to Is the current System still valid? on Wed, 02 Jun 2010 16:53:48 GMT

mrswongtuition — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 16:53:48 GMT

verykiasu2010:

the day Singapore does away with exams will be the downfall. Ample examples from neighbouring country where they make it easy for the bumi to move on the grades by lowering the standard. they graduate without knowing what they have learnt.

Eh, I know of someone from a neighbouring country, graduated with equivalent to our 'O' Levels, can't read or write English at all. Even in his native language, he can't read well. Do we want that to happen to our kids?

Being a mother to a 3yo boy and someone who has first hand experience with the local school system, I would have to agree with you. Doing away with exams will be the downfall.

If we remove the exams...
Are the kids mature enough to know that they are learning for their own sakes?
Without exams, 90% of them would not even bother to pay attention in class, do their homework, revise what they have learnt, etc.

Exams are necessary. However, changes can be made. More can be done to ensure fair testing (teachers must have taught the concept and technique before testing the children). Concepts that students are expected to know must be spelt out clearly and given to parents in advance.

Also, we cannot push education to the school/teachers only. We, as parents, also have to take responsibility in their learning.
I do not agree with certain things in the current education system. What can I do? Educate my boy my preferred way at home. MOE is promoting 'soft skills' now. How can schools enrich their 'soft skills' when there's limited leadership positions for all to try out? Parents can step in and give opportunities from home or create them outside home through religious classes, enrichment classes, etc. Even through informal playgroups with cousins/other relatives/friends.

Instead of worrying about our education system (unless you intend to type out a proposal with evidence of success to back up to submit to MOE), maybe you should be more concerned about how you are going to build a strong support system for your child. Parenting styles need to be discussed and agreed upon with your spouse too. Parenting is not just about academic education. Before you frustrate yourself with this issue, you have to arm yourself with knowledge on breastfeeding, weaning, common childhood illnesses, vaccinations, surviving the 'terrible twos', discipline, social interaction, sleeping patterns, etc etc.

It's nice to see parents concerned and thinking about their kids' education, but sometimes, we think too much. I admit - I get paranoid at times wondering if sending my boy to my hub's alma mater will do him good or harm. I get paranoid about his current kindy not teaching enough to prepare him for primary school. It's unavoidable for us to worry. My hubs told me to stop worrying and start brainstorming for solutions instead So I'm spending alot more time with him, playing and learning together through games and physical play.

Btw, you must understand that most parents are busy earning money for the family's daily expenses. Not all of them can afford to stay home with their kids though they may love to.
Not all of them are equipped with the knowledge or the 'know-how' to help their kids academically. Tuition and enrichment centres are to help the kids. Many kids I know of actually requested for the lessons as they have a competitive spirit too. I personally feel that if the kids enjoy it, it's no harm done. Like my boy, he'll beg us to take him to his phonics class when we are in that area. He loves it so much we could not bear to stop that class although they are shifting and it will be rather inconvenient to drive to their other centre.

If you are going to write a proposal to MOE, do share with us too. I'm sure parents here will give support to a proposal that will benefit the future generations.

Reply to Is the current System still valid? on Wed, 02 Jun 2010 16:42:45 GMT

mocharita — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 16:42:45 GMT

LightingtheSpark:
Hi,

I am a new father of a boy. Starting to think about his education and primary school. Yes, a bit early, but it's just me... I like to plan ahead. I see 3 choices ahead of me:

1) Follow the well-trodden path to getting my son into the \"best\" primary school that makes sense for us, in terms of distance and available means to increase his probability of getting in.

2) Find a school that gives my son the best exposure on multiple fronts. One with passionate teachers and principals. One that truly cares about the individual students. (unfortunately, I can find no ranking list based on similar criteria)

3) Something totally different. I do not know what this may be yet.

But, I have deep concerns about option 1. While it may be a bit strange for me to be airing such a view on Kiasuparents, I have no ill intent. I just hope to get some feedback to develop my thoughts further. My concern is this -- THAT THE CURRENT EDUCATION SYSTEM WILL NO LONGER BE VALID FOR OUR CHILDREN'S FUTURE. No doubt, it is all we have now. But I really think we need new models going forward.

Why do I think so?

1) Graduating from the System no longer guarantees you a job in the real world.

2) The System is too restrictive and is too conformist. The typical graduate from the System (by this, I do not mean tertiary graduate, I just mean someone who has exited at whatever level) is one who is likely too fearful to be independent, too conformist and not too hungry. Hunger and passion is severely lacking in many people.

3) The current System is unsustainable if we, as a Nation, want to remain competitive going forward.

-----

This topic is something very close to my heart. I really got down to thinking about it only after watching the following videos from TED.COM. I recommend you watch all 3 and think about the topic.

http://www.ted.com/talks/sir_ken_robinson_bring_on_the_revolution.html

http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html

http://www.ted.com/talks/temple_grandin_the_world_needs_all_kinds_of_minds.html

-----
Ok, that's all for now. Will be most appreciative if the community can contribute your thoughts on this topic please. Thank you and I look forward to an interesting discussion.

To the Moderators: If you think this is a topic of importance, I would be grateful if you could set up a discussion topic, with higher visibility on this forum, in order to generate a better discussion. Thank you.

: ) LightingtheSpark

Homeshooled your kiddo, babe. :roll:

Reply to Is the current System still valid? on Wed, 02 Jun 2010 15:48:48 GMT

verykiasu2010 — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 15:48:48 GMT

so what is your proposal ? if there is no alternative then what are you trying to say ?

so what is so wrong with tuition ?

Quote : \"For example, I think our culture of sending kids to tuition classes has led to perverse twists in the System, where full-time teachers are attracted to moonlighting and worse still, more and more parents think Tuition is necessary (just to keep up, or to gain an edge). I feel sorry for the children, especially when I truly believe Tuition often does more harm to the child’s psyche and is much less useful than perceived. Parents send their children to tuition because they have no time to help or no ability to help. It helps to relieve their guilt. Children just obey, for the sake of not wanting to hurt their parents.\" Unquote

does more harm ? to relief guilt ? you come from Utopia ?

why is internet penetration perverse ? you mean there is no good use to it ? aren't you using it now t o communicate with us in this Forum ?

the day Singapore does away with exams will be the downfall. Ample examples from neighbouring country where they make it easy for the bumi to move on the grades by lowering the standard. they graduate without knowing what they have learnt.

Reply to Is the current System still valid? on Wed, 02 Jun 2010 15:32:54 GMT

LightingtheSpark — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 15:32:54 GMT

Thank you for your replies. I understand that this is a difficult topic. Let me state upfront that I am no Education expert but I have a vested interest (my son) for wanting to learn about it and see how it can be improved further.

It is likely not just the education system that has to change, but also the way employers judge their prospective hires and the way that majority of the people make a living. It is a big problem that needs to be resolve at different parts of society.

Verykiasu2010, I think Chief made a good point about meritocracy, which underpins much of Singapore’s success. We do need a fair way to differentiate people and direct them to their most suited role in society. Some form of examinations is thus inevitable. We have come some way in the way we conduct our examinations. Today, you have the Through-train system and I read that 16 primary schools have even done away with P1 examinations. I applaud the efforts our Ministry have put in over the years, but I do think we are far from a steady state process of tweaking the System in the right direction. The way we implement changes seem to be (1) playing a catch-up game all the time, (2) changing without really changing legacy mindsets and (3) not daring to confront the difficult issues, including how we incentivize the teachers and various parties.

Why is this a problem? Playing catch-up means going after the ball by aiming for where it is right now in the air, instead of running to where it is likely to end up. You are likely to miss. Tweaking the system without addressing legacy mindsets is simply putting on bells and whistles onto the same old thing that doesn’t work. Not addressing difficult issues like teacher incentives lead to implementation problems like those that even I, as a 3rd party bystander, can identify and can see getting worse. For example, I think our culture of sending kids to tuition classes has led to perverse twists in the System, where full-time teachers are attracted to moonlighting and worse still, more and more parents think Tuition is necessary (just to keep up, or to gain an edge). I feel sorry for the children, especially when I truly believe Tuition often does more harm to the child’s psyche and is much less useful than perceived. Parents send their children to tuition because they have no time to help or no ability to help. It helps to relieve their guilt. Children just obey, for the sake of not wanting to hurt their parents.

Verykiasu2010, Singapore has done a good job in copying the best of everything from the rest of the world. It is the smart way to do things and also easy for civil servants to write papers to justify. But I increasingly believe that it is time that we thought for ourselves and walk our own path. There is no such thing as “an alternative that has been identified, tested, proven robust, easy to implement and widely accepted”. By definition, alternatives are not like that. We must write our own story. And I think we can. Let us move away from our Colonial hangover, thinking that it is sexy and best to just go round copying. We are likely at the stage where most of the people that we are copying from also don’t know what they are doing. We must think for ourselves and try to design our own. And we can. Singapore, being a small city, is much easier to implement new systems. The caveat is that we should implement well-thought through and comprehensive systems that are not just an amalgamation of best practices. Things just don’t work like that. The changes must be both good in concept and executable in implementation.

Yes, exams have been around for thousands of years. But pervasive internet penetration has only been around for ≈ 20 years. The world has changed and change is accelerating. We need to move on and prepare for the future. Those who believe that the old school still works ought to take a look at our Asian competitors and try to understand how competing with them head-on is futile. We need to find our own place in this smarter web of value chains.

Dear Chief,

Firstly, thank you for starting this thread. Really appreciate it. For a moment, when I saw my posting removed from the newbie folder, I thought that I kena kicked out for raising this issue. But I now know better.

Thank you for your reply. I see that you have given it some thought as well. I will touch on a few issues.

I agree that no one knows the future and that we can only do our best. What I do know however, is that the current system will likely be not good enough. And I am quite fed up with just accepting things as they are. I am less willing to accept it anymore simply because I want the best for my son, like all of us who even bother coming to this website.

I agree that Curiosity is very important, but I think not everyone is wired that way and we probably don’t need everyone to be. Thinking worker? I agree that “thinking” is what we need, but “worker” will no longer be sufficient for the future. We seem to be moving towards a COLLABORATIVE model of working. Societies are moving in that direction, thanks to the proliferation of social networks. Workplaces are also doing the same, especially since employees’ value add is no longer just about vomiting out information but actually USING that information.

I don’t think Passion and exams are inherently incompatible. What is more important is that we as parents do not kill our children’s passion, in the fear that time spent on Passion = time and results taken from exams. In his 2009 speech that I posted, Sir Ken Robinson quoted the poet WB Yeats:

HAD I the heavens’ embroidered cloths,
Enwrought with golden and silver light,
The blue and the dim and the dark cloths
Of night and light and the half light,
I would spread the cloths under your feet:
But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
He reminded us that every day, our children spread their dreams under our feet. And we ought to tread softly.

Does “having a good and stable job with sufficient income” make us happy? Many live in quiet desperation, not understanding how is it that, even after achieving a good and stable job with sufficient income, they are still very unhappy? Does doing well in your studies guarantee you a good job and career? Does not doing well in your studies condemn you to a lesser job and career? My answer to both questions is “Not necessarily”. I personally know of many counter examples. Passion and love for one’s work is still the most important ingredient for success and a job well done. Idealistic and naïve? Maybe, but I know no other way except to tell the truth about something this close to the heart. Others may continue to live in quiet, desperate, denial.

What can MOE do? I don’t have a good answer and am not in a good position to comment, especially without knowing their institutional and political constraints. But I hope to be able to develop an answer with all of your help. Sometimes, change needs to be comprehensive instead of piecemeal. Because only when it is comprehensive, people can understand what you are doing and where you are headed. Timid bite-size evolution may not be appropriate at the important junctures when a true revolution / mindset change of the system is required.

Reply to Is the current System still valid? on Wed, 02 Jun 2010 08:30:35 GMT

mrswongtuition — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 08:30:35 GMT

verykiasu2010:
and oh......he could have finished burning all the books then .........lol

Oh yes, he should have burnt every book on Earth!

Reply to Is the current System still valid? on Wed, 02 Jun 2010 04:58:20 GMT

verykiasu2010 — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 04:58:20 GMT

ChiefKiasu:

I believe the MOE recognises this, but faces an up-hill task trying to correct the situation. It has tried changing the syllabus, but ended up with creating more stress for students and their parents because the fundamental issue of grades was not addressed. When it tried to address the issue of grades, it faced immense criticism from the public. Look at what happened when MOE proposed the lowering of Chinese weightage in PSLE, and the new issue of P1-2 not having examinations or grades. See how parents reacted to the issue. The fundamental public opinion is that the education system should prepare children to SCORE in examinations!

Do we have any alternative that is objective enough to replace the exam grading system to measure the learning progress of the kids ? Until and unless an alternative has been identified and tested, proven robust, easy to implement and widely accepted ...... we are still a long way off

exam system has been around since the days of Qin Shi Huang when he standardised languages and words and oh......he could have finished burning all the books then .........lol

Reply to Is the current System still valid? on Wed, 02 Jun 2010 04:43:58 GMT

verykiasu2010 — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 04:43:58 GMT

LightingtheSpark:
Hi,

I am a new father of a boy. Starting to think about his education and primary school. Yes, a bit early, but it's just me... I like to plan ahead. I see 3 choices ahead of me:

1) Follow the well-trodden path to getting my son into the \"best\" primary school that makes sense for us, in terms of distance and available means to increase his probability of getting in.

2) Find a school that gives my son the best exposure on multiple fronts. One with passionate teachers and principals. One that truly cares about the individual students. (unfortunately, I can find no ranking list based on similar criteria)

3) Something totally different. I do not know what this may be yet.

But, .....................

: ) LightingtheSpark

Option 1 & 2 need not be mutually exclusive

Reply to Is the current System still valid? on Wed, 02 Jun 2010 04:39:18 GMT

ChiefKiasu — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 04:39:18 GMT

LightingtheSpark:
... But, I have deep concerns about option 1. While it may be a bit strange for me to be airing such a view on Kiasuparents, I have no ill intent. I just hope to get some feedback to develop my thoughts further. My concern is this -- THAT THE CURRENT EDUCATION SYSTEM WILL NO LONGER BE VALID FOR OUR CHILDREN'S FUTURE. No doubt, it is all we have now. But I really think we need new models going forward. ...

The question is, nobody knows what the future is, and even if we do, how do we know what we are doing today will be really effective in preparing our kids for the future.

The irony is, it is because of attempts at predicting the necessary skillsets of future populations that have led to the radical changes in early childhood education in Singapore. Primary school education is no longer recognisable by old fogies like ourselves even though we have gone through the same number of years of education. Very few of us will be able to excel at answering the math and science questions posed to P6 kids in PSLE. Did they change the syllabus? Perhaps a little, but not by so much that we can claim that we did not learn the same material in school in the past. So what was changed? What makes subjects like math so much more difficult to us, even though they are supposedly solvable using basic skills that we should have learnt at those same levels?

It is the \"thinking\" worker that MOE is trying to create now. Gone are the days where the mere application of formulae and techniques will assure a student good grades in examinations. The focus is on the understanding of \"why\" as opposed to \"how\".

Curiosity, which drives the pursuit of \"why\" questions, is the fundamental ingredient that differentiates the geniuses from the ordinary. The passion to find out why things are the way they are allowed the caveman to discover that fire makes raw meat easier to store and digest. It allowed the Greeks to explore beyond their island in search of new and fascinating knowledge and grew a great culture of their own that formed the very foundations of civilisation as we know it today. It makes possible the things that were once thought impossible, eg. flying, traveling to the moon, etc.

It can be argued that the old education system we went through is a factory that produced cookie-cutter workers who are efficient and able to perform well in well-defined environments and sufficient resources. The question is whether the future environment will be as \"well-defined\" as it is today. And if not, will the current system be able to produce workers who can work in a more fluid and indeterminate environment?

By addressing the method of teaching, and not how proficiency is measured, the education system will remain unable to spark the kids' interest or curiosity. How can someone be passionate about something when he/she has to sit for a written test to prove that he is proficient in it? And when math questions that are more suitable as IQ or math olympiad questions are put into a country-wide examination that could determine the future of a child, can you blame the outcry from the public?

IMO, it is a case of the mind is willing, but the flesh is weak. The fundamental constraint that hems our education system is emphasis on meritocracy. As long as students continue to be measured by book-work, as long as they are rewarded physically, ie. getting into good schools, good jobs, etc, by getting good grades; no amount of tweaking the syllabus or pedagogy can create the really \"thinking\" entrepreneurs who are confident enough in themselves to know they can survive and even thrive in uncertainty and chaos.

Ask yourself, if you have a choice between having a good and stable job with sufficient income, versus getting immensely rich but with a high risk of failure, which option would you take? I daresay that most Singaporeans will choose the first option, and since the criteria for that option is to do well in your studies, the obvious pre-requisite is to focus on education.

I believe the MOE recognises this, but faces an up-hill task trying to correct the situation. It has tried changing the syllabus, but ended up with creating more stress for students and their parents because the fundamental issue of grades was not addressed. When it tried to address the issue of grades, it faced immense criticism from the public. Look at what happened when MOE proposed the lowering of Chinese weightage in PSLE, and the new issue of P1-2 not having examinations or grades. See how parents reacted to the issue. The fundamental public opinion is that the education system should prepare children to SCORE in examinations!