Unfair treatment in Math

Reply to Unfair treatment in Math on Fri, 22 Aug 2014 15:48:22 GMT

Kiaseemum — Fri, 22 Aug 2014 15:48:22 GMT

Do you have time to coach him? By coaching him, you will know if he is weak in understanding the question or he's a careless chap.

P1 Math is generally easy to teach.
Also, you may check with his Math teacher to see if your son is really weak in understanding the concepts.
You need to know his area of weakness before you can adopt the right approach. Hope it helps.[/quote]

Thanks for your reply
I don't have time to coach except on weekends, the strange bit is that when he does his homework he can do it n get all correct.. But in class, careless mistakes. I spoke to the teacher who claims ge doesn't
Understand the concepts and he has remedial lessons after school just for math. I hope it's just a phase as he's not even 7 yet ..

Reply to Unfair treatment in Math on Fri, 22 Aug 2014 15:47:54 GMT

Kiaseemum — Fri, 22 Aug 2014 15:47:54 GMT

Reply to Unfair treatment in Math on Fri, 22 Aug 2014 09:45:48 GMT

Ikid — Fri, 22 Aug 2014 09:45:48 GMT

Kiaseemum:
Need advice: my ds seems to be a little lost with p1 math, always scoring e.g 30/50..

Just wondering if he needs tuition?? Will tuition once a week help him?
I'm just concerned if I don't send him now things may get worse .. Hopefully not.
Kiaseemum.

Kiaseemum,

Do you have time to coach him? By coaching him, you will know if he is weak in understanding the question or he's a careless chap.
P1 Math is generally easy to teach.
Also, you may check with his Math teacher to see if your son is really weak in understanding the concepts.
You need to know his area of weakness before you can adopt the right approach. Hope it helps.

Reply to Unfair treatment in Math on Fri, 22 Aug 2014 09:44:37 GMT

Ikid — Fri, 22 Aug 2014 09:44:37 GMT

Kiaseemum:
Need advice: my ds seems to be a little lost with p1 math, always scoring e.g 30/50..
Just wondering if he needs tuition?? Will tuition once a week help him?
I'm just concerned if I don't send him now things may get worse .. Hopefully not.
Kiaseemum.

Reply to Unfair treatment in Math on Fri, 22 Aug 2014 09:15:52 GMT

Kiaseemum — Fri, 22 Aug 2014 09:15:52 GMT

Need advice: my ds seems to be a little lost with p1 math, always scoring e.g 30/50…

Just wondering if he needs tuition?? Will tuition once a week help him?
I’m just concerned if I don’t send him now things may get worse … Hopefully not.
Kiaseemum.

Reply to Unfair treatment in Math on Wed, 25 Jun 2014 05:25:40 GMT

KSP — Wed, 25 Jun 2014 05:25:40 GMT

in the context of PSLE be it for Maths or other subjects, the paper is such that it will not fail most students but also difficult to score A*… depending on the parents’ expectation, if the expectation is to solve all the questions then it will be challenging unless the kid is very bright…

Reply to Unfair treatment in Math on Wed, 25 Jun 2014 05:22:42 GMT

Dino_Mummy — Wed, 25 Jun 2014 05:22:42 GMT

That's the challenge of being in an \"elite\" school?

In any case, with all the above views, i do concur that parents have to play an active role in helping their child these days -- as parents, we want to help our child reach their highest potential but as a teacher (as Tamarind shared), you have to help the class (if not majority) to pass.

In an 'elite' school, there may also be pressure to filter out further to maintain their 'standard' and reputation?

Skyjuice:

DS just transferred to an \"elite\" school. He was from one of the top classes in his previous school but now placed in a low ability class. He got very bored doing just the work book. No challenging sums at all. He was shocked to learn only 2, in his current class of 41, passed SA1 Math and at borderline too. Many of the kids scored below 40. I've seen that paper and it really isn't easy!

I guess it's a bit shocking as DS had always been in top classes and never seen such results before. Perhaps it's the school's way to get the kids to buck up with a tough paper? Or like Sun2010 said, the school's way to filter out the higher ability students.

Like Picolo, I've always known better classes do more. But I guess now then I feel a bit sore bearing the brunt of it. We have stepped up on his home revision cos can't depend on his class to prepare him for the SA2 if DS wants to move to a better class next year.

Just needed an outlet to let it out! Thanks folks! :stupid:[/quote]

Reply to Unfair treatment in Math on Wed, 25 Jun 2014 04:57:13 GMT

bb_ mom — Wed, 25 Jun 2014 04:57:13 GMT

Many sentences & steps involved. Sometimes, can get lost in the question. I'm still struggling with DS but outsourced as well. Drop by the P5 Math thread. :faint:

Reply to Unfair treatment in Math on Wed, 25 Jun 2014 04:55:09 GMT

GLORYmum — Wed, 25 Jun 2014 04:55:09 GMT

could it be that our kids are getting smarter and able to solve the questions which used to be tougher before?

i have given up solving DD's maths questions since P5 ...

Reply to Unfair treatment in Math on Wed, 25 Jun 2014 04:46:40 GMT

phtthp — Wed, 25 Jun 2014 04:46:40 GMT

is it true that nowadays in PSLE -

Maths questions getting less tough, compared to the past ?

Reply to Unfair treatment in Math on Tue, 10 Aug 2010 03:30:36 GMT

buds — Tue, 10 Aug 2010 03:30:36 GMT

skyjuice:
buds:

Heard from many tutors and parents, Andrew Er's Math Books are pretty
challenging. There's also another publication from SAP, if you're keen to
check them out, skyjuice.
Thanks, Buds DS has been doing more Onsponge Conquer Problem Sums, Casco's Problem Sums and Fabian Ng's book. They are quite comprehensive in covering challengers too.

Yes, how cud i have left out Fabian. Fabian's books are systematic and
clearly written. We started with Fabian as well since K2.

Reply to Unfair treatment in Math on Mon, 09 Aug 2010 14:20:58 GMT

verykiasu2010 — Mon, 09 Aug 2010 14:20:58 GMT

Pen88n:
I know there are schools that does subject banding for the average classes. This will also help that students of certain strengths are grouped together so that they can further their strong subjects and not be held back by students weaker in the subject.

Having said that, nothing beats an \"analysis\" whereby the kid's strengths and weaknesses are recognised - strengths should be \"exploited\" further, weaknesses can be gaps that needed to be \"filled\". I see this as the job of the parents who are hands-on and can coach and guide their kids along. Outsouorcing this task to tutor(s) may / may not work as tutor(s) do not know or understand the kid as well.

Fair statement

Reply to Unfair treatment in Math on Mon, 09 Aug 2010 13:34:44 GMT

Pen88n — Mon, 09 Aug 2010 13:34:44 GMT

I know there are schools that does subject banding for the average classes. This will also help that students of certain strengths are grouped together so that they can further their strong subjects and not be held back by students weaker in the subject.

Having said that, nothing beats an "analysis" whereby the kid’s strengths and weaknesses are recognised - strengths should be "exploited" further, weaknesses can be gaps that needed to be "filled". I see this as the job of the parents who are hands-on and can coach and guide their kids along. Outsouorcing this task to tutor(s) may / may not work as tutor(s) do not know or understand the kid as well.

Reply to Unfair treatment in Math on Mon, 09 Aug 2010 13:20:41 GMT

corneyAmber — Mon, 09 Aug 2010 13:20:41 GMT

In many scenarios in life, not just Math, the excellent and the weakest will get the most attention. Unfortunately, the in between-band will tend to be neglected and they will tend to be left on their own to fend for themselves.

If there is forum to provide feedback or ask question, may be good to check with the school.

Reply to Unfair treatment in Math on Mon, 09 Aug 2010 12:14:39 GMT

Picolo — Mon, 09 Aug 2010 12:14:39 GMT

tamarind:
Picolo:
[quote=\"verykiasu2010\"]
if the non-high ability were to be taught also the more challenging math, then they may end up not able to master the basic as well as not able to handle the challenging questions.

which you you prefer ? to be able to handle well the basic question and miss out the marks for the challenging questions ? or to be \"half pail of water\" for all the topics and take the risks of not scoring in all sections ?

then another grumble will be why not let them concentrate on the basic and ignore the FEW challenging questions ?
I used to analyse this logically like you. My kids are in better classes and I didn't know what exactly are being done in the average/mixed ability classes. But when so many other mums with kids from different levels and classes started describing how 'bo-chap' the Math Teachers are in the average classes, I start to realise that this has become quite a serious problem for the poor kids in the average classes. The teachers just do the bare minimal math worksheets required by the schools, with no time dedicated to some varied 'challenging/ interesting' questions. When the kids do past years' papers, the teachers just give them the answers without explanation! I used to dismiss these complaints from other parents, but when I hear similar feedback from so many others, I am beginning to believe that there is a vicious cycle for the poor kids in the average math classes. Maybe the direction of the schools are reasonable - if you are a 2.4 l car, you go faster and so I let you go more miles, learn everything etc. but you and I know you need to be exposed to all kind of road conditions in order to win the race, right? I wonder if the principals really know what are happening in the average classes? Whatever it is, I know that if my kids ever go into an average class one day, I make sure I expose them to different kinds of questions that are reasonable to appear in PSLEs.

Average students do best when given one to one attention, especially at primary school levels. Parents have to teach them at home, or employ private tutors for them. We really cannot depend on the school teachers.
[/quote]Totally agree. That's why I cannot expect the school teachers to improve the grades of my ds2, who is easily distracted in class. I have to put in more efforts teaching my ds2 at home.

Reply to Unfair treatment in Math on Mon, 09 Aug 2010 07:30:48 GMT

skyjuice — Mon, 09 Aug 2010 07:30:48 GMT

buds:

Heard from many tutors and parents, Andrew Er's Math Books are pretty
challenging. There's also another publication from SAP, if you're keen to
check them out, skyjuice.

Thanks, Buds DS has been doing more Onsponge Conquer Problem Sums, Casco's Problem Sums and Fabian Ng's book. They are quite comprehensive in covering challengers too.

Reply to Unfair treatment in Math on Mon, 09 Aug 2010 03:35:45 GMT

tutormum — Mon, 09 Aug 2010 03:35:45 GMT

IMHO, it boils down to the ability of individual students and their attitude. I have a class of high ability students who scores above 88 and obviously they have no problem with the standard lessons given and work at a faster pace, thus can be challenged. They complete all assignments on time without any reminders and I even sense that they are silently competing among themselves to be in the top league. I have another class of average students most of whom are not interested in the lessons at all and I have to stop now and then to draw their attention back to the board. :x :x In the end, a simple topic has to be repeatedly taught before they understand the BASIC concept. On top of that, they can’t work out the problems on their own and don’t even bother do any homework given. :x :x However, their attitude improve when they find that they are able to understand the concept and it’s not really that difficult at all.

To help a child in Maths, my suggestion is to catch him/her when he/she is young. Once the child is interested in Maths, everything else is easy. If not, tuition and extra lessons given will not make a child do better esp when they have been doing poorly and don’t see the point in putting in effort. Not only will their initial interest is eroded, they’ll hate Maths more and more when they see their score getting lower and lower.

Reply to Unfair treatment in Math on Mon, 09 Aug 2010 02:16:06 GMT

Lynn2 — Mon, 09 Aug 2010 02:16:06 GMT

Tamarind

Well said.
I agreed most children at home are either taught by private tutor or parents.There again, different children also source for different kind of tutors as in the ability to teach.

A teacher is not able to focus on all students in a class unless a smaller class is possible in school

tamarind:
Picolo:
[quote=\"verykiasu2010\"]if the non-high ability were to be taught also the more challenging math, then they may end up not able to master the basic as well as not able to handle the challenging questions.

which you you prefer ? to be able to handle well the basic question and miss out the marks for the challenging questions ? or to be \"half pail of water\" for all the topics and take the risks of not scoring in all sections ?

then another grumble will be why not let them concentrate on the basic and ignore the FEW challenging questions ?
I used to analyse this logically like you. My kids are in better classes and I didn't know what exactly are being done in the average/mixed ability classes. But when so many other mums with kids from different levels and classes started describing how 'bo-chap' the Math Teachers are in the average classes, I start to realise that this has become quite a serious problem for the poor kids in the average classes. The teachers just do the bare minimal math worksheets required by the schools, with no time dedicated to some varied 'challenging/ interesting' questions. When the kids do past years' papers, the teachers just give them the answers without explanation! I used to dismiss these complaints from other parents, but when I hear similar feedback from so many others, I am beginning to believe that there is a vicious cycle for the poor kids in the average math classes. Maybe the direction of the schools are reasonable - if you are a 2.4 l car, you go faster and so I let you go more miles, learn everything etc. but you and I know you need to be exposed to all kind of road conditions in order to win the race, right? I wonder if the principals really know what are happening in the average classes? Whatever it is, I know that if my kids ever go into an average class one day, I make sure I expose them to different kinds of questions that are reasonable to appear in PSLEs.

I have experience teaching maths in a class of mostly average students (above O levels). My only concern is to make sure that every student pass. In a class of 30+ students, I have no choice but to focus on the weaker students, whose maths are really poor. I have to repeat the basic questions many times so that they can understand. Those who have not taught students like them will not be able to understand how difficult it is to teach them.

There were 2 or 3 students who were slightly above average. They started to blame me for not helping them to get \"A\".

What can I do ? Help 2 or 3 students get \"A\", or help 20+ weak students pass ? If a student fails, he may be kicked out of school.

Average students do best when given one to one attention, especially at primary school levels. Parents have to teach them at home, or employ private tutors for them. We really cannot depend on the school teachers.

In fact, I spent all my free time giving one to one lesson to the weakest students. There are so many of them ! I honestly do not have time to give one to one lesson to help a student improve his grade from C to A.[/quote]

Reply to Unfair treatment in Math on Mon, 09 Aug 2010 01:21:13 GMT

tamarind — Mon, 09 Aug 2010 01:21:13 GMT

Picolo:
verykiasu2010:
[quote=\"skyjuice\"]In DS's school, higher ability classes learn more Math in terms of more challenging work and content. But at the end of the day, the whole level is tested on the same paper. Without doubt, lower ability classes can't handle the chellengers cos they were not taught them in the first place! I wonder if other schools experience this?

if the non-high ability were to be taught also the more challenging math, then they may end up not able to master the basic as well as not able to handle the challenging questions.

which you you prefer ? to be able to handle well the basic question and miss out the marks for the challenging questions ? or to be \"half pail of water\" for all the topics and take the risks of not scoring in all sections ?

then another grumble will be why not let them concentrate on the basic and ignore the FEW challenging questions ?

I used to analyse this logically like you. My kids are in better classes and I didn't know what exactly are being done in the average/mixed ability classes. But when so many other mums with kids from different levels and classes started describing how 'bo-chap' the Math Teachers are in the average classes, I start to realise that this has become quite a serious problem for the poor kids in the average classes. The teachers just do the bare minimal math worksheets required by the schools, with no time dedicated to some varied 'challenging/ interesting' questions. When the kids do past years' papers, the teachers just give them the answers without explanation! I used to dismiss these complaints from other parents, but when I hear similar feedback from so many others, I am beginning to believe that there is a vicious cycle for the poor kids in the average math classes. Maybe the direction of the schools are reasonable - if you are a 2.4 l car, you go faster and so I let you go more miles, learn everything etc. but you and I know you need to be exposed to all kind of road conditions in order to win the race, right? I wonder if the principals really know what are happening in the average classes? Whatever it is, I know that if my kids ever go into an average class one day, I make sure I expose them to different kinds of questions that are reasonable to appear in PSLEs.[/quote]
I have experience teaching maths in a class of mostly average students (above O levels). My only concern is to make sure that every student pass. In a class of 30+ students, I have no choice but to focus on the weaker students, whose maths are really poor. I have to repeat the basic questions many times so that they can understand. Those who have not taught students like them will not be able to understand how difficult it is to teach them.

There were 2 or 3 students who were slightly above average. They started to blame me for not helping them to get \"A\".

What can I do ? Help 2 or 3 students get \"A\", or help 20+ weak students pass ? If a student fails, he may be kicked out of school.

Average students do best when given one to one attention, especially at primary school levels. Parents have to teach them at home, or employ private tutors for them. We really cannot depend on the school teachers.

In fact, I spent all my free time giving one to one lesson to the weakest students. There are so many of them ! I honestly do not have time to give one to one lesson to help a student improve his grade from C to A.

Reply to Unfair treatment in Math on Mon, 09 Aug 2010 01:10:30 GMT

Brenda10 — Mon, 09 Aug 2010 01:10:30 GMT

Picolo:
Picolo:

Theoretically there's nothing wrong. But for those parents whose kids are in these classes, they need to know what's actually happening in the school system to help their kids realise their true potentials.

Yes. It’s important for our awareness and necessary action. .

Take another subject CL for example, during the CL Exam both the HCL and Normal CL students have to sit together for the same CL exam test paper although they attend in different classes and using the HCL text book and CL Text Book respectively.

My DD is not taking HCL but I also bought the HCL text book and activity book for reference.

Reply to Unfair treatment in Math on Sun, 08 Aug 2010 17:07:07 GMT

Picolo — Sun, 08 Aug 2010 17:07:07 GMT

buds:
skyjuice:
In DS's school, higher ability classes learn more Math in terms of more challenging work and content. But at the end of the day, the whole level is tested on the same paper. Without doubt, lower ability classes can't handle the chellengers cos they were not taught them in the first place! I wonder if other schools experience this?

Brenda10:
May be. In DD school the top two classes are using the more challenging workbook/worksheet than the others classes.
In my DDs' school as well. On top of more challenging books, separate
higher ability Math worksheets as well. Naturally when tested on same
level playing field, the higher ability students tend to score full marks
or if not, at the very least i observed.. they're somewhere around 95.

That said, i do empathize with skyjuice's DS since the marks for that
shortfall is A LOT. :hugs: Like what the others have shared, as parents
we can provide the additional support with external resources and guide
our children with as much as they can handle.

Heard from many tutors and parents, Andrew Er's Math Books are pretty
challenging. There's also another publication from SAP, if you're keen to
check them out, skyjuice.

Good post, buds! :lol:

We all do need to empathise more with people who are caught in unpleasant situations.

Reply to Unfair treatment in Math on Sun, 08 Aug 2010 16:55:18 GMT

Picolo — Sun, 08 Aug 2010 16:55:18 GMT

skyjuice:
Thanks, all!

skyjuice, I'm sure your son will make it to a better class next year. Jia you!

Reply to Unfair treatment in Math on Sun, 08 Aug 2010 16:51:28 GMT

Picolo — Sun, 08 Aug 2010 16:51:28 GMT

verykiasu2010:
Picolo:
[quote=\"verykiasu2010\"]
if the non-high ability were to be taught also the more challenging math, then they may end up not able to master the basic as well as not able to handle the challenging questions.

which you you prefer ? to be able to handle well the basic question and miss out the marks for the challenging questions ? or to be \"half pail of water\" for all the topics and take the risks of not scoring in all sections ?

then another grumble will be why not let them concentrate on the basic and ignore the FEW challenging questions ?
I used to analyse this logically like you. My kids are in better classes and I didn't know what exactly are being done in the average/mixed ability classes. But when so many other mums with kids from different levels and classes started describing how 'bo-chap' the Math Teachers are in the average classes, I start to realise that this has become quite a serious problem for the poor kids in the average classes. The teachers just do the bare minimal math worksheets required by the schools, with no time dedicated to some varied 'challenging/ interesting' questions. When the kids do past years' papers, the teachers just give them the answers without explanation! I used to dismiss these complaints from other parents, but when I hear similar feedback from so many others, I am beginning to believe that there is a vicious cycle for the poor kids in the average math classes. Maybe the direction of the schools are reasonable - if you are a 2.4 l car, you go faster and so I let you go more miles, learn everything etc. but you and I know you need to be exposed to all kind of road conditions in order to win the race, right? I wonder if the principals really know what are happening in the average classes? Whatever it is, I know that if my kids ever go into an average class one day, I make sure I expose them to different kinds of questions that are reasonable to appear in PSLEs.

what school is that ?[/quote]No need to speculate which school. As you can see, not all those who shared the same view here have kids in the same school. I would say many schools operate this way, but I only realise it this year when I get to know more parents and adjunct teachers this year.

Reply to Unfair treatment in Math on Sun, 08 Aug 2010 16:45:44 GMT

Picolo — Sun, 08 Aug 2010 16:45:44 GMT

verykiasu2010:
Picolo:
[quote=\"verykiasu2010\"]
if the non-high ability were to be taught also the more challenging math, then they may end up not able to master the basic as well as not able to handle the challenging questions.

which you you prefer ? to be able to handle well the basic question and miss out the marks for the challenging questions ? or to be \"half pail of water\" for all the topics and take the risks of not scoring in all sections ?

then another grumble will be why not let them concentrate on the basic and ignore the FEW challenging questions ?
I used to analyse this logically like you. My kids are in better classes and I didn't know what exactly are being done in the average/mixed ability classes. But when so many other mums with kids from different levels and classes started describing how 'bo-chap' the Math Teachers are in the average classes, I start to realise that this has become quite a serious problem for the poor kids in the average classes. The teachers just do the bare minimal math worksheets required by the schools, with no time dedicated to some varied 'challenging/ interesting' questions. When the kids do past years' papers, the teachers just give them the answers without explanation! I used to dismiss these complaints from other parents, but when I hear similar feedback from so many others, I am beginning to believe that there is a vicious cycle for the poor kids in the average math classes. Maybe the direction of the schools are reasonable - if you are a 2.4 l car, you go faster and so I let you go more miles, learn everything etc. but you and I know you need to be exposed to all kind of road conditions in order to win the race, right? I wonder if the principals really know what are happening in the average classes? Whatever it is, I know that if my kids ever go into an average class one day, I make sure I expose them to different kinds of questions that are reasonable to appear in PSLEs.

putting yourself in the position of the teacher

do you hope to get the class to achieve a good A or a good B (don't talk about A* for those near bottom classes) than to risk the whole class getting C by teaching them more challenging questions that the kids have problem dealing with ?[/quote]Wow, so many updates...

Well, again, this is actually what I used to think, too. However, don't forget, in a mixed ability (aka average) class, there are always some better ones in Math (but not good enough in all subjects to join the top classes) who will become the scapegoats of the system. Of cos, it is logical for the Math Teachers to pitch at the 'average' level. Surely, the teacher is doing 'right' to pitch at the standard of the majority, right? Theoretically there's nothing wrong. But for those parents whose kids are in these classes, they need to know what's actually happening in the school system to help their kids realise their true potentials.

And really, math classes is about training thinking skills, so average students should also be given the opportunities to learn the most efficient methods of getting the correct answers. Of cos, there's not enough time to cover everything, that I understand.