Smart but lazy?

Reply to Smart but lazy? on Fri, 18 Feb 2011 02:00:00 GMT

couriers — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 02:00:00 GMT

Too true you really do need a Human Pschycology Degree first. however its great to have Kiasu Parents forum to talk and share with others tips.

Reply to Smart but lazy? on Thu, 17 Feb 2011 16:14:30 GMT

joylly — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 16:14:30 GMT

Thank you pinksped for sharing with me.

counselling + remedition.

Counselling : does it means i need to find out why is my child
so "careless" ? And to work from the reasons …

Remediation : I teach him how to do his papers and worksheet properly and without any careless mistakes ?

Thank you and God Bless

Reply to Smart but lazy? on Tue, 15 Feb 2011 02:08:29 GMT

Chenonceau — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 02:08:29 GMT

chic_savvy:
rosemummy:
I think there's a big difference between perfection and not being careless. Not being careless simply means not making mistakes on what you're capable of doing. To me, perfection would mean the best way to get something done, such that it can't be done any better.

We don't need perfection for everything. We certainly can't achieve that on this side of eternity. For example, food need not be perfect in taste and every other aspect, but it should not be prepared carelessly and cause food poisoning. A ride need not be perfect in terms of route and comfort, but the driver should not be careless and cause harm to someone as a result.
Well said. :hugs:

I second that... :goodpost:

Reply to Smart but lazy? on Mon, 14 Feb 2011 22:44:08 GMT

chic_savvy — Mon, 14 Feb 2011 22:44:08 GMT

rosemummy:
I think there's a big difference between perfection and not being careless. Not being careless simply means not making mistakes on what you're capable of doing. To me, perfection would mean the best way to get something done, such that it can't be done any better.

We don't need perfection for everything. We certainly can't achieve that on this side of eternity. For example, food need not be perfect in taste and every other aspect, but it should not be prepared carelessly and cause food poisoning. A ride need not be perfect in terms of route and comfort, but the driver should not be careless and cause harm to someone as a result.

Well said. :hugs:

Reply to Smart but lazy? on Fri, 11 Feb 2011 18:32:23 GMT

pingsped — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 18:32:23 GMT

joylly:
HIe pingsped

U said that such a behavior could be successfully corrected without the use of cane.

I have to admit though I do cane him the last time on his hands with wooden ruler, with every careless mistakes. I got him to do his work and to check. Then I'll mark and check his checking. I let all the wrong answers go, as my main purpose is to help him be more careful. SO my plan was, I check his checking.

Undone questions, questions without working, and hand writting which requires the teacher to guess, all warrants 1 stroke on his hands. 1 careless mistake, 1 stroke on hand.

That was during the December period. Currently I've seen that he has less mistakes in his worksheets and homework from school.

I hate to cane him. In any case where such carelessness occur again, are there any other methods I could use ? Please help me and my son.

Thank you very much. God bless you.

Counselling + remediation work well.

Hmm, I use different approaches depending on the child's IQ, behv & personality. I work very well with competitive, sore loser, impulsive, erm emotional types. They hate studying cos deep inside, they hate losing. They don't like feeling stupid. Naturally, when I teach them how to overcome their difficulties, they are willing to try harder.

The cooperative & meek kids improve even faster. Cos they listen well.

It's hard for dyslexics to spot their own mistakes. A lot of them feel a huge sense of dread when they see written work. They just rush thro & try to get everything done. When they rush or feel pressured, they make more mistakes cos accuracy of retrieval/recall or processing drops. 51 becomes 15, 'then' becomes 'than', 5+6 becomes 6-5, etc

I do different experiments to help the child see that by staying calm, he can eliminate many of his careless mistakes. My students learn to understand their own processing styles & temperament which helps to self-monitor.

how many marks does your child lose thro \"carelessness\"?

I'll do a statistical analysis of mistakes & work from there.
Self-belief alone is insufficient. There are different types of dyslexia. In theory, dyslexia is a processing disorder involving reading & writing. However, there are lots of children who have language, comprehension difficulties or even ADHD. These need to be addressed by your therapist.

Eg
If your child's writing pressure is making him tire easily, I would work on that. Cos when he's tired, he's more prone to writing errors.

When my student has overcome one difficulty, I cheer his efforts and we discuss our next goal. I build up his self-esteem and confidence step by step. I also tell him my expectations, ie predicted exam scores band.

All kids love to do well and be praised. When someone who believes in them (esp if they like the teacher v much) comes along & teaches them how to fish EFFECTIVELY, they'll do anything for that teacher.

My students with mild intellectual disability can do regular English in upper pri. They just get passes. They believe me when I tell them they can pass. I'm happy as long as they do their best. Even when they miss the 50% by a bit, they see the cup as half-full, not half-empty. They literally score 80-90% of available marks in specific sections to score a pass

Success (even small ones) and having staunch support are empowering tools.

Oops, went a bit off topic.
Maybe you work on improving your relationship - getting your child to confide in you. Spend time talking or playing. Now that there are less mistakes, coach him and continue to reinforce that he is able to spot certain mistakes. Try not to nag. If he is very complacent, I think it's alright to impose certain consequences eg no TV for 1 week, etc.

Reply to Smart but lazy? on Fri, 11 Feb 2011 10:43:34 GMT

joylly — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 10:43:34 GMT

\" The fact is, I did cane and will do so again if I need to. I think I cannot hold him responsible if he does not know. I never get angry at honest ignorance. But he can be held responsible if he has been sloppy. (See link here http://petunialee.blogspot.com/2010/10/exam-stress.html). Carelessness is sloppiness, and sloppiness becomes a habit if left unaddressed. It was a habit. If you don't know, you cannot do harm. If you do know and you are sloppy, you can do great harm. That was how some people's eggs got fertilised with the wrong sperm. The habit of sloppiness/carelessness has implications beyond merely marks. \"

LIKE A LOT !

Reply to Smart but lazy? on Fri, 11 Feb 2011 10:00:29 GMT

joylly — Fri, 11 Feb 2011 10:00:29 GMT

HIe pingsped

U're a special needs therapist.

I suspect my son is dyslexic, mild condition. Sorry, I long suspected but another educational therapist confirm it. My son is borderline dyslexic.

And yes, he can be careless, but is very imaginative, and strategic. He's also very musically inclined and could picked up musical notes and learn and play his piano fairly well. Oh yeah, he loves to read Sun Zhi Strategems and use it on his friends, board games etc etc.

But he could be quite careless, is there any way I could help him in this aspect ? Without caning him ? U said that such a behavior could be successfully corrected without the use of cane.

I have to admit though I do cane him the last time on his hands with wooden ruler, with every careless mistakes. I got him to do his work and to check. Then I'll mark and check his checking. I let all the wrong answers go, as my main purpose is to help him be more careful. SO my plan was, I check his checking.

Undone questions, questions without working, and hand writting which requires the teacher to guess, all warrants 1 stroke on his hands. 1 careless mistake, 1 stroke on hand.

That was during the December period. Currently I've seen that he has less mistakes in his worksheets and homework from school.

I hate to cane him. In any case where such carelessness occur again, are there any other methods I could use ? Please help me and my son.

Thank you very much. God bless you.

Reply to Smart but lazy? on Mon, 07 Feb 2011 02:55:47 GMT

Mamalicious Alicia — Mon, 07 Feb 2011 02:55:47 GMT

Hi Mummies,

My husband and i attended a talk on the topic,
‘Giving your child the excellence edge’ by Joshua Ng.

Speaker is very funny. His children have all grown up, so we felt that the talk was better for 6yrs and above parents. But we did take home some very good points he brought up.

1) Character flaw.
Which i think is the topic we are discussing now. He mention how he expected a student of his (secondary level) to excel in all his subjects but did not. He found out that the boy was playing computer games once he reach home till the next day. So it is this flaw that prevents him from maximising his full potential.

If he thinks that his children are smart, then he expects full marks for spelling. Only if they are dyslexic then they will be excused.

2) Raising a quality child
Expect quality in their work they produce. His analogy was mac donalds french fries. We all like good fresh french fries, and not the sloggy ones, so if we were to instill in our children to aim for good quality work, they will have an excellent edge over others. But not to confuse with being a perfectionist…

There were more pointers but these are the two which never cross my mind and made me think about.

Mamalicious Alicia

Reply to Smart but lazy? on Mon, 31 Jan 2011 23:13:53 GMT

Chenonceau — Mon, 31 Jan 2011 23:13:53 GMT

pingsped, autumn bronze, rose mummy... :grphug:

Reply to Smart but lazy? on Mon, 31 Jan 2011 16:24:54 GMT

pingsped — Mon, 31 Jan 2011 16:24:54 GMT

Chenonceau:

The discussion veers now towards whether or not a child can overcome his/her own carelessness without intervention? I dunno any research answers that I can share.

I also agree that children need love, emotional support, encouragement. However, why cannot one have high expectations and still provide all these? Are they mutually exclusive?

I preferred to work on self-efficacy... the belief in being able to handle this and that task or overcome this and that challenge. The best way to build self -efficacy is to have one's child experience success at a task.

He also gets a lot of fulfillment from the newfound respect he gained from Teachers and friends.

Higher self-efficacy leads to greater task persistence. Greater task persistence leads to higher life success. Life success positively relates to well-being and fulfillment. All three assertions have research support. Where have I hurt my son? Only on the butt... all other potential outcomes are positive and arises from his new found sense of higher self-efficacy.

That's why it's so hard to parent. It isn't what you use, but how you use it in conjunction with all the other tools that matter.

Some tools are dangerous when not properly used. RIVP (using the cane) is one of them. I almost regret sharing because it truly is something that you wanna stay away from if you don't know how to control it well.

Wow, so many posts in a few days.

Just to clarify, I don't think u r in anyway abusive. Most trained psychologists deliberate carefully before administrating any negative or aversive consequence. You are a great mum. I just wanted other parents to know that u are very well-trained in using behaviour modification techniques.

I'm both a perfectionist and big slop. I'll probably do something nasty too (but not caning) if my girl is excessively sloppy in schoolwork. My tolerance is abt 10ish%. I hope she'll be disgusted with herself if she doesn't get a perfect score in her fav subj.

To prevent sloppiness from taking root, I'll be sending my toddler to schools which have the right values and offer right stimulation for her ability. Nothing like appropriate peer pressure and friendly competition

Other methods
Some of my students have sensory integration dysfunction. When they daydream (etc) too long, I erm, remove their chairs. Sometimes I do the same for myself. I make sure they understand that standing makes them more alert & I'm also standing with them.

I'm not saying u shld cane yourself

Reply to Smart but lazy? on Mon, 31 Jan 2011 15:13:54 GMT

3Boys — Mon, 31 Jan 2011 15:13:54 GMT

Chenonceau,

I have to say, I swallowed hard when I read how you disciplined your child for careless errors. My gut feel is that is somewhat harsh, but hey, I’m not here to judge.

Reply to Smart but lazy? on Mon, 31 Jan 2011 08:51:27 GMT

autumnbronze — Mon, 31 Jan 2011 08:51:27 GMT

Funz:
Well, actually Chenonceau, it is great that you shared your experience in handling your kids. There will be many who may agree or disagree, some more strongly then others but nobody can say whatever methods they used is the absolute correct one.

I love to read what pple like yourself, insider, and a few others have contributed. 1stly because you guys have children who are much older then my kids and would have gone through with them much more then I have. And you guys would also have been able to see if the methods you have used yielded the results that you have wanted. 2ndly, your arguments for and against are done so eloquently and level headedly it sets one thinking and reflecting. 3rd, I learn a lot of new terms that I can throw around.

The dynamics of the relationship between a child and his parents, family and his environment is so complex we cannot presume to know what this parent has done or not done before deciding on embarking on certain actions. Just because a child is caned does not mean he will be 'damaged'. And I like to believe that most parents are sane people with enough self control not to wield a cane irresponsibly, so much so that the option of a cane has to be so absolutely, and resolutely disallowed.

Errrhemmm, silent lurker here :oops:

Have been following all these super interesting posts faithfully. There's so much food for thought, so much to be picked up from all the experienced mummies here etc...

My DS is only a toddler

This is great sharing, Funz.

I agree with your sentiments exactly :hi5:

Reply to Smart but lazy? on Mon, 31 Jan 2011 07:17:30 GMT

rosemummy — Mon, 31 Jan 2011 07:17:30 GMT

I think there’s a big difference between perfection and not being careless. Not being careless simply means not making mistakes on what you’re capable of doing. To me, perfection would mean the best way to get something done, such that it can’t be done any better.

We don’t need perfection for everything. We certainly can’t achieve that on this side of eternity. For example, food need not be perfect in taste and every other aspect, but it should not be prepared carelessly and cause food poisoning. A ride need not be perfect in terms of route and comfort, but the driver should not be careless and cause harm to someone as a result.

Reply to Smart but lazy? on Mon, 31 Jan 2011 07:02:59 GMT

rosemummy — Mon, 31 Jan 2011 07:02:59 GMT

Funz:
insider:
[quote=\"rosemummy\"]
I work a lot with lawyers, corporate lawyers to be precise. And you can easily tell the difference in the quality of work between a US lawyer and a Singapore lawyer. I have Singapore lawyers using a previous agreement for another client as a template, and didn't even remember to change the client's name. Typo and grammatical errors are common, even after several drafts. The US lawyers, even after working for more than 2 weeks without sleep, are churning out documents with no typo or grammatical errors. They cost quite a lot more, but I always feel happier paying them.
Hahaha...you surely have met sloppy local lawyers. I definitely cannot accept sloppy lawyers coz I am paying good money to them. So far, the local laywers except one of them whom I used are good (occasional grammar errors still can be spotted but not glaring ones and so are still acceptable to me). No experience with the expat lawyers and so can't compare notes with you...

Most times, it is not the lawyers themselves who draft those letters. It's their paralegals. The lawyers just sign. :P[/quote]Yes, but I'm actually talking about agreement prepared by them, and for which they confirm that it's in order for my signature (when it's actually not in order). For my area of work, there's hardly any letter involved, apart from legal opinions. For that, they're very careful.

Actually, on further thought, apart from the education system, the other reason why US lawyers produce better quality work could be due to RVIP in the form of a potential lawsuit. Haha.

Reply to Smart but lazy? on Mon, 31 Jan 2011 06:55:50 GMT

Chenonceau — Mon, 31 Jan 2011 06:55:50 GMT

Funz... :hugs:

Reply to Smart but lazy? on Mon, 31 Jan 2011 06:55:15 GMT

rosemummy — Mon, 31 Jan 2011 06:55:15 GMT

Chenonceau:
Someone who worked at our national cheque clearing centre got into a huff when she heard that there would be no group bonus if the centre cleared more than 1%(?) of cheques wrongly. She said that in school the pass mark is 50% and so the error tolerance should be at 50%. I wonder what Singaporeans would say if 1 out of 2 cheques we wrote got banked into the wrong account.

That's what I meant when I say our education system somehow breeds workers who thinks getting things right half the time is good enough. There isn't much motivation to do better if you can get above 80% since you'll be comfortably assured of a distinction. The truth is, in life, we don't often have such margin for error. Yes, carelessness can be disastrous in many humble job as well. Just look at the many who died or became disabled as a result of carelessness on the road.

Reply to Smart but lazy? on Mon, 31 Jan 2011 06:45:42 GMT

Funz — Mon, 31 Jan 2011 06:45:42 GMT

Well, actually Chenonceau, it is great that you shared your experience in handling your kids. There will be many who may agree or disagree, some more strongly then others but nobody can say whatever methods they used is the absolute correct one.

I love to read what pple like yourself, insider, and a few others have contributed. 1stly because you guys have children who are much older then my kids and would have gone through with them much more then I have. And you guys would also have been able to see if the methods you have used yielded the results that you have wanted. 2ndly, your arguments for and against are done so eloquently and level headedly it sets one thinking and reflecting. 3rd, I learn a lot of new terms that I can throw around.

I have many friends and even my own sister who keep telling me things like, you know you should just do this, or that, it worked for my kid. Or something like give them only 2 choices and make sure that these 2 choices are choices that you want. So whichever they pick you are ok with it and the kid still gets a sense of being in control. Sounds good and logical until you meet my DD she will throw your 2 choices out the window and give you 2 of her own choices. My Dad puts it most aptly, he said, 'dealing with that DD of yours is really a battle of the wits. You gotta stay 2 even 3 steps ahead of her.' Then he chuckled gleefully and said, 'What your child dish out to you, their child will return to them 10 folds.'

I have yet to resort to caning either of my kids. Spanking, yes, but cannot even remember when was the last time I spanked either one for them for misbehaviour.

The dynamics of the relationship between a child and his parents, family and his environment is so complex we cannot presume to know what this parent has done or not done before deciding on embarking on certain actions. Just because a child is caned does not mean he will be 'damaged'. And I like to believe that most parents are sane people with enough self control not to wield a cane irresponsibly, so much so that the option of a cane has to be so absolutely, and resolutely disallowed.

Reply to Smart but lazy? on Mon, 31 Jan 2011 05:41:44 GMT

Chenonceau — Mon, 31 Jan 2011 05:41:44 GMT

insider:

The above quoted is what I am worrying for most parents who are likely to cane with anger with hurtful words spouting out from their mouth at the fit of anger. Many times parents want their kids to be this and that (such as to remain calm) but most of the times, these parents cannot model this and that themselves and then the kids suffer unnecessarily. It's not really difficult to parent kid, it is more difficult to 'fix' ourselves...

Aaaah yes... I stand properly corrected by you then.

I have shared something (RIVP with cane) very dangerous to use. I have a PhD in Human Motivation (and long years of practical experience... though perhaps not with kids) and even then I thought long and hard before I used it. And we talked about it as a family.

RIVP in itself takes some mastery. RIVP (with cane) is even more dangerous when someone is poorly skilled. You can damage a child just like a carpenter unskilled with saw can waste a block of wood.

If you are not confident, stay away from RIVP (especially with cane)... and do not use it OFTEN... do not also use it with toddlers nor Lower Primary... to be very safe.

Also, do note that 99% of the time, I am a very affectionate parent. I do not nag... I don't yell or scold... and my fuse is very long. I have loads of surplus in my children's emotional bank accounts to balance off the 3 times in their childhood where I inflict intense and memorable pain to protect them from even worse pain later.

If you have a short fuse... bad temper... are prone to yelling, then stay away from RIVP. You can damage the child/employee, and consign yourself to a lonely old age because your kids hate you too much to come back and visit.

I should have known better than to write the post in the first place, EVEN IF it worked for me.

Reply to Smart but lazy? on Mon, 31 Jan 2011 04:39:21 GMT

Funz — Mon, 31 Jan 2011 04:39:21 GMT

Sloppiness and perfection. Guess what, I have 2 kids, each representing these 2 opposites.

DD is careless and sloppy. Her work can be untidy and riddled with mistakes that she should not be making. She just gave me a 2 page essay without any punctuations. Her excuse? Aiyah, understood right? And, this is only a draft what.

DS on the other hand seeks perfection to the point that he will erase and re-write and erase and re-write just because the letters are not aligned. These days he is better after we kept assuring him that it is ok not to have perfectly aligned letters and some mistakes are acceptable.

How I wish I can take this 2 attributes of their, mesh it together, mix it well and return to them the combined attributes. Haizz, if only.

With my kids, it is the attitude that I am addressing, not the academic results. I recognise that there is strength in DD’s attitude. With this attitude of hers, she is not afraid to try new stuff and she will walk away unscath even if she fails. DS on the other hand, will not embark on new stuff unless he is certain of success. With that, we know that whatever DS churns out it will be of a certain quality.

The challenge now is in helping them find that middle ground.

DD is very much like me. I am an intuitive, prone to carelessness and mighty lacking in details. And because I recognise that trait, I am trying my best to guide DD to avoid the pitfalls that comes with that trait. I have no idea where DS got his perfectionist trait from. Maybe my father.

Reply to Smart but lazy? on Mon, 31 Jan 2011 04:19:26 GMT

Chenonceau — Mon, 31 Jan 2011 04:19:26 GMT

insider:

Taking this discussion into caning the child if he makes careless mistakes and we imagine the child taking back his marked paper from his teacher. Upon seeing his careless mistakes, he would have felt ‘remorseful’ like anything (“How come I can make this kind of mistake??? How come???”) and then he has to tie his mistakes with the punishment. The kind of complex psychological pain I feel is too much for a child to bear at that maybe still ‘blur blur’ age. So, even given a ‘perfect’ score, this ‘perfectness’ is an artificial one and not a genuine one in a way. ‘Perfectness’ (not in terms of 100% full marks but the best of a child’s effort based on his capability) can be achieved naturally coz kids with an OK IQ and an average conscientiousness will eventually know how to find ways to perfect their own scores (and other things in their life later).

I tend to believe that children have enormous strength / potentials in them, though the strength / potentials maybe of different levels. Building in young children a solid self esteem and guiding them with firm love, understanding, and emotional support, eventually the motivation to be the best that they can be (by minimizing own careless mistakes) will be coming from deep within them instead of by external forces in terms of punishments/rewards/etc (which will not be meaningful and life fulfilling in my opinion).

The discussion veers now towards whether or not a child can overcome his/her own carelessness without intervention? I dunno any research answers that I can share.

I myself never fixed my own carelessness until I wrote an exam for 600 people and the marks were totalled wrongly. I paid far more dearly for that error than 2 strokes of cane that leave a mark which leaves in 2 days. The Husband did fix his carelessness by the time he hit PSLE. Is there a 50% chance it could go either way? I dunno... so I decided to help my son fix his problem so that he wouldn't have to go through what I went through.

Nothing stops you or other parents from waiting it out.

I also agree that children need love, emotional support, encouragement. However, why cannot one have high expectations and still provide all these? Are they mutually exclusive?

As to the question of self-esteem, I have all my life deliberately steered away from self-esteem. There is plenty of research on self-esteem and some of it shows that high self-esteem can lead to negative outcomes. Many megalomaniacs (Hitler, NKF's Durai etc... ) have super high self-esteem. Here again, I realise that I proffer an opinion that is not commonly accepted because everyone thinks that high self-esteem is highly desirable in itself. There is danger in over rating self-esteem, I think.

I preferred to work on self-efficacy... the belief in being able to handle this and that task or overcome this and that challenge. The best way to build self -efficacy is to have one's child experience success at a task.

Little Boy was never a confident boy. This was my fault. I had not realised that the dynamics between The Daughter, 7 years older than Little Boy, had undermined his sense of self-efficacy. Little Boy lost to his sister for 7 years before I cottoned on to what was happening. No matter how hard you try to stop them competing, siblings will compete. Little Boy was always expecting to lose. He had developed a loser's mentality, and very low self-esteem and he had not much self-efficacy at most tasks. This crossed over to school work.

\"Mom, I am not one of those who can do well in Math\"

After he fixed his carelessness, he went and topped the class in Math for the first time. He couldn't believe it. His classmates couldn't believe it to the extent that the whole class broke into applause for him. He has since developed higher self-efficacy is much less shy and more out-going. He also gets a lot of fulfillment from the newfound respect he gained from Teachers and friends.

Higher self-efficacy leads to greater task persistence. Greater task persistence leads to higher life success. Life success positively relates to well-being and fulfillment. All three assertions have research support. Where have I hurt my son? Only on the butt... all other potential outcomes are positive and arises from his new found sense of higher self-efficacy.

I find it odd that so many people think that there are techniques that are inherently good or bad. For me, I refrain from judging techniques because these are just professional tools in a toolbox. It's like saying to a fellow carpenter, the saw is a poor instrument. The hammer is better. You don't get results by judging tools (emotional support VS rewards/punishment) in themselves. You get results by matching tools to situation. There are moments to correct a child. There are moments to let him go. There are moments to put him on your knee and patch him up and say \"You didn't get that grade but I still love you, and I will love you even if you are the dumbest little kid in the world.\"

I have done that too, because that too another research-based motivation technique.

That's why it's so hard to parent. It isn't what you use, but how you use it in conjunction with all the other tools that matter.

Some tools are dangerous when not properly used. RIVP (using the cane) is one of them. I almost regret sharing because it truly is something that you wanna stay away from if you don't know how to control it well.

Reply to Smart but lazy? on Mon, 31 Jan 2011 03:59:21 GMT

Funz — Mon, 31 Jan 2011 03:59:21 GMT

insider:
rosemummy:

I work a lot with lawyers, corporate lawyers to be precise. And you can easily tell the difference in the quality of work between a US lawyer and a Singapore lawyer. I have Singapore lawyers using a previous agreement for another client as a template, and didn't even remember to change the client's name. Typo and grammatical errors are common, even after several drafts. The US lawyers, even after working for more than 2 weeks without sleep, are churning out documents with no typo or grammatical errors. They cost quite a lot more, but I always feel happier paying them.
Hahaha...you surely have met sloppy local lawyers. I definitely cannot accept sloppy lawyers coz I am paying good money to them. So far, the local laywers except one of them whom I used are good (occasional grammar errors still can be spotted but not glaring ones and so are still acceptable to me). No experience with the expat lawyers and so can't compare notes with you...

Most times, it is not the lawyers themselves who draft those letters. It's their paralegals. The lawyers just sign.

Reply to Smart but lazy? on Mon, 31 Jan 2011 02:35:48 GMT

Chenonceau — Mon, 31 Jan 2011 02:35:48 GMT

fristrom:
Chenonceau:
You raise a thought provoking question... Would the type of profession determine how much one values perfectionism?

Not sure whether the profession determines how much one values perfectionism or is it the other way around i.e. how much one values perfectionism determines your profession.

But I do believe that within each profession, there is a professional standard, a perfection that one strives for.

Yeah... heh! I reckon there is some degree of self-selection.

Reply to Smart but lazy? on Mon, 31 Jan 2011 02:30:01 GMT

Chenonceau — Mon, 31 Jan 2011 02:30:01 GMT

insider:
Chenonceau:

You raise a thought provoking question... Would the type of profession determine how much one values perfectionism?
Full article from:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200802/pitfalls-perfectionism

I don't understand... Didn't seem to flow from my comment? Are we talking about the same thing? Or is it just a random sharing not meant as a response to my question?

Anyway, whilst I am at it, I rather think some professions determine how much people value perfectionism because I see high tolerance for error in some industries (childcare, horticulture), and low tolerance for error elsewhere (medical, aeronautical).

Your post is more about why perfection is bad, is it? These findings are not new.

I don't really think there is any black or white answer to whether perfectionism is good or bad. Because equally, a long and deep stream of motivation research that started in the 1960s and is still very active today, shows how setting high goals lead to high performance.

You expect more, you get more. You expect perfection, you might get it sometimes. You expect sloppiness, you'll get that all the time.

You are right in saying perfectionism can lead to poor performance. In conditions where tasks are new and complex, setting high expectations leads to exactly what you have described... people forgetting, worrying etc... and thus underperforming in a big way.

However, in tasks where there is already task mastery, it is possible to ask for perfection and get it, without unduly stressing the child/employee.

That is why surgeons practice, carpenters apprentice, children do practice math exams... and I always comfort my children if a mistake stemmed from pure ignorance. Expecting perfection (of yourself or others) all the time regardless of situation undermines performance in situations where tasks are complex and novel.

The whole picture should therefore be somewhat more balanced eh? It isn't case of whether perfectionism is good or bad. That becomes a polarizing (and not quite productive) black VS white... good VS bad debate, no? It is case of WHEN one can demand perfection without damaging the child.

The fact is, there are increasingly more and more industries that require perfection as a standard. We certainly expect our Teachers to be perfect. I've noticed and often overlooked teacher marking errors (especially since my son had last year, the most affectionate and loving teacher I've ever met). I was quite happy to lose marks unnecessarily instead of quarreling with and discouraging a Teacher who really loves kids. I told Little Boy that no one is perfect and just a few marks won't make me think better or worse of him. \"Don't sweat the small stuff\", I said. Nonetheless, some parents storm to school and give the poor teacher grief over 1.5 marks.

BUT the Chief Examiner at PSLE needs to strive for perfection or else, t-scores may be miscalculated and children sent to the wrong stream.

Whether one values perfectionism or not is a theoretical question. So what if we concur perfectionism is bad? Firstly, when it comes to judging whether something is good or bad, even the moon has her dark side. Secondly, in the real world, many jobs and many situations demand perfection or consequences can be serious.

Someone was careless and Osama bin Laden got away. Someone forgot to press ONE switch and the company lost SGD1 million in 6 hours. Someone was careless and a Chinese mother took home a Chinese-Indian baby from the IVF centre even though her husband is a Caucasian. A bank teller mistakenly gave out $1000/= twice and 3 managers from the bank spent 3 hours poring through videos, and another 2 hours tracking down the person who was given the money. A rojak seller was careless about hygiene and a beloved Grandma died as a result.

Someone who worked at our national cheque clearing centre got into a huff when she heard that there would be no group bonus if the centre cleared more than 1%(?) of cheques wrongly. She said that in school the pass mark is 50% and so the error tolerance should be at 50%. I wonder what Singaporeans would say if 1 out of 2 cheques we wrote got banked into the wrong account.

Maybe one can overlook a preschool English Teacher's command of English (and I daresay I have done so more times than I can count because it really wasn't important to me when my kids were in preschool) but there are many professions out there (some very humble ones) that brook no error.

Mistakes happen. Perfection is elusive. But I would still lean towards wanting my kids to learn that even if perfection doesn't exist, it is good to try for it in areas where they already know their stuff. If I don't teach them early enough, Life will teach them... and Life's lessons are often more painful. They could lose jobs/promotions/reputation. Of course, then it would be their fault for never having learnt to be careful... but no matter whose fault, my own heart will ache for them.

Reply to Smart but lazy? on Sun, 30 Jan 2011 15:29:17 GMT

jedamum — Sun, 30 Jan 2011 15:29:17 GMT

rosemummy:

Just to note that I'm not talking about the 1 man show or small firms. And many a times I find myself having to proof-read the documents they've prepared. I don't find that acceptable even though the consequences may not be serious. That's what I meant by having to train a child to not be careless or sloppy from young.

more often than not, firms that send out documents with no errors thrive on a robust inhouse system and protocol. it does not mean that their employees are any less careless in general.