P1 Punishment

Reply to P1 Punishment on Thu, 29 Dec 2011 05:45:23 GMT

millan — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 05:45:23 GMT

rong05:
jojowee:
Hi,I'm the friend Belle is talking about. My son has been a patient of kkh child development unit since 4 yr. He has speech difficulties, cannot express himself and suspected ADHD keep in view by psychologist doctor. Before entering p1 a letter was given to the school to inform the teachers about his special needs.

When i ask him yesterday why he pinch his classmates he looks at me in shame and sadness but can't explain why he did it. Its really breaks my heart
I'm trying to find a private councelling centre that he can attend coz gov takes a long time once a year see psychologist doc. Any recommendation ?
Hi jojowee,

I have 2 psychiatrists who are practicing in Mount E to recommend. My son has been seeing one of them for 3 years for suspected Asperger Syndrome and the other, I plan to go in June for 2nd opinion. If you are interested, pls pm me.

Both psychiatrists were recommended by my son's PD in Mt E. The psy I am going to seek for 2nd opinion is renowned in this field and u do see his name appear in Mind Your Body.

Hi, can I have the contact? my son is diagnosed this yr as A by child guidance clinic, he is 14 yrs old .

He need not go for review cos he is of high functioning type, but need to build up self awareness, as he is so smart, he always tells me : I am the only one that can change myself and only if I want to...

I dun know wat to do w him.. and I always end up scolding him ..

How are this 2 psychiatrist ? ok? can I have the contact? thks

Reply to P1 Punishment on Sun, 24 Apr 2011 04:50:24 GMT

Laughing — Sun, 24 Apr 2011 04:50:24 GMT

It should be the teacher who carry out the punishment rather than fellow classmates. If not, the children may think they can punish others such as pinching.. :rant:

Reply to P1 Punishment on Thu, 21 Apr 2011 16:55:32 GMT

verykiasu2010 — Thu, 21 Apr 2011 16:55:32 GMT

the teacher is sending the wrong message that revenge is alright

the boy is wrong and deserved to be punished but not by the ‘mob’, the person in authority (teacher) should be the one doing it in a suitable manner

Reply to P1 Punishment on Thu, 21 Apr 2011 16:50:54 GMT

buds — Thu, 21 Apr 2011 16:50:54 GMT

jojowee:
Hi,I'm the friend Belle is talking about. My son has been a patient of kkh child development unit since 4 yr. He has speech difficulties, cannot express himself and suspected ADHD keep in view by psychologist doctor. Before entering p1 a letter was given to the school to inform the teachers about his special needs.

When i ask him yesterday why he pinch his classmates he looks at me in shame and sadness but can't explain why he did it. Its really breaks my heart
I'm trying to find a private councelling centre that he can attend coz gov takes a long time once a year see psychologist doc. Any recommendation ?

Aaaah.. now we know the real history behind the actions.. i did feel yest
that not all were told in detail (hence the many questions) & somehow gut
feelings + some experience with similar cases did indicate that perhaps
your son has medical issues that i didn't want to pin-point.. (so the many
questions were actually to be more sure of the nature of the issue at hand
and of course also your son) but not nice to dig when if it's something not
for open sharing.. but with your revelation, at least we now know the deep
end of what's going on.. the earlier the intervention the better for you and
your son. Whereabouts are you staying? You can PM me if you're not
comfortable... it will help if he can also work in groups of children in the
presence of trained therapists other than one-to-one consultation with med
person that you have in mind. *hugs for you* http://www.easyfreesmileys.com/skype-emoticons.html

Reply to P1 Punishment on Thu, 21 Apr 2011 16:38:48 GMT

pingsped — Thu, 21 Apr 2011 16:38:48 GMT

jojowee:
Hi,I'm the friend Belle is talking about. My son has been a patient of kkh child development unit since 4 yr. He has speech difficulties, cannot express himself and suspected ADHD keep in view by psychologist doctor. Before entering p1 a letter was given to the school to inform the teachers about his special needs.

When i ask him yesterday why he pinch his classmates he looks at me in shame and sadness but can't explain why he did it. Its really breaks my heart
I'm trying to find a private councelling centre that he can attend coz gov takes a long time once a year see psychologist doc. Any recommendation ?

Does your child have a history of behaviours that point to sensory integration disorder? Does he have dyspraxic behaviours?

(You can google for symptoms of sensory integration disorder (SID) and dyspraxia.)

If yes, pls bring your son to see an Occupational Therapist who specialises in the above conditions. A behaviour therapist may be able to help to put a behaviour management program in place.

From my experience, children with ADHD may get into fights but do not regularly pinch other children. Some children with the above dual condition do pinch or scratch.

While I do not know the facts, most teachers do not suggest such extreme punishment unless they are very frustrated.

But the teacher should be reported to the principal and counselled for not exercising due discretion. You have to take some responsibility for agreeing to it.

I'm sorry for what happened to your son. It is unacceptable. There are no mitigating reasons whatsoever.

I hope u get some help soon. You can PM me if you like to know the OT centre which specialises in SID.

Reply to P1 Punishment on Thu, 21 Apr 2011 11:43:58 GMT

rong05 — Thu, 21 Apr 2011 11:43:58 GMT

jojowee:
Hi,I'm the friend Belle is talking about. My son has been a patient of kkh child development unit since 4 yr. He has speech difficulties, cannot express himself and suspected ADHD keep in view by psychologist doctor. Before entering p1 a letter was given to the school to inform the teachers about his special needs.

When i ask him yesterday why he pinch his classmates he looks at me in shame and sadness but can't explain why he did it. Its really breaks my heart
I'm trying to find a private councelling centre that he can attend coz gov takes a long time once a year see psychologist doc. Any recommendation ?

Hi jojowee,

I have 2 psychiatrists who are practicing in Mount E to recommend. My son has been seeing one of them for 3 years for suspected Asperger Syndrome and the other, I plan to go in June for 2nd opinion. If you are interested, pls pm me.

Both psychiatrists were recommended by my son's PD in Mt E. The psy I am going to seek for 2nd opinion is renowned in this field and u do see his name appear in Mind Your Body.

Reply to P1 Punishment on Thu, 21 Apr 2011 09:48:58 GMT

tamarind — Thu, 21 Apr 2011 09:48:58 GMT

sleepy:
cwc:
[quote=\"QuiteKSMum\"]Rem when I was in P3, T asked us (Chinese girls) what's tent in chinese. None of us could answer and she asked all the chinese girls to queue up and let the malay classmates slap us! Physical pain I cannot rem liao, but this episode is still v.fresh in my mind even thou more than 30 yrs have passed. BTW, the T is a Chinese lady...maybe she's having PMS on that day... :? :x

Of course during that era, most of us don't go & complain to our parents. Maybe I did, but they just listened only, no action taken...
Gosh, quite bad eh. Yes, during our time.....teacher is BIG, teacher always CORRECT.
I also remembered an incident in P5....my Chinese teacher slept in class and we were to self-study. I told a male classmate \"老师在发白日梦\" and he laughed too loudly and woke the teacher. She was very angry, came over and slapped me so hard on the shoulder that I felt forward a few steps. I felt so :x cos' I'm stating fact. Guess during our time, we just suffer in silence.....

I was pinched by my P2 teacher until blue black. What's the crime? For not standing straight enough in queue in her opinion. That's phyiscal abuse. Yet to count the verbal abuse & sneer remarks by various teachers :!:

You know whenever I saw MOE recruitement commercials on TV, I just laughed out loud. Is that a fairytale? Hey that wasn't anywhere near how I remembered my teachers :|[/quote]I was caned by the teacher for talking too much when in lower primary. I have no comments about punishment by teachers. However, I think that teacher who asked other kids to queue up to pinch on small child is very wrong. The teacher is teaching kids that it is right to take revenge. So at home if their siblings hit them, then they must always hit back ? What happen to the virtues of tolerance and forgiveness ?

Reply to P1 Punishment on Thu, 21 Apr 2011 09:44:22 GMT

tamarind — Thu, 21 Apr 2011 09:44:22 GMT

jojowee:
Hi,I'm the friend Belle is talking about. My son has been a patient of kkh child development unit since 4 yr. He has speech difficulties, cannot express himself and suspected ADHD keep in view by psychologist doctor. Before entering p1 a letter was given to the school to inform the teachers about his special needs.

When i ask him yesterday why he pinch his classmates he looks at me in shame and sadness but can't explain why he did it. Its really breaks my heart
I'm trying to find a private councelling centre that he can attend coz gov takes a long time once a year see psychologist doc. Any recommendation ?

jojowee,
I am very sorry to hear this. I am absolutely appalled by what the teacher did. Hopefully some sensible parent will report him/her to MOE.

Reply to P1 Punishment on Thu, 21 Apr 2011 09:38:59 GMT

sleepy — Thu, 21 Apr 2011 09:38:59 GMT

cwc:
QuiteKSMum:
Rem when I was in P3, T asked us (Chinese girls) what's tent in chinese. None of us could answer and she asked all the chinese girls to queue up and let the malay classmates slap us! Physical pain I cannot rem liao, but this episode is still v.fresh in my mind even thou more than 30 yrs have passed. BTW, the T is a Chinese lady...maybe she's having PMS on that day... :? :x

Of course during that era, most of us don't go & complain to our parents. Maybe I did, but they just listened only, no action taken...
Gosh, quite bad eh. Yes, during our time.....teacher is BIG, teacher always CORRECT.
I also remembered an incident in P5....my Chinese teacher slept in class and we were to self-study. I told a male classmate \"老师在发白日梦\" and he laughed too loudly and woke the teacher. She was very angry, came over and slapped me so hard on the shoulder that I felt forward a few steps. I felt so :x cos' I'm stating fact. Guess during our time, we just suffer in silence.....

Reply to P1 Punishment on Thu, 21 Apr 2011 09:29:37 GMT

jojowee — Thu, 21 Apr 2011 09:29:37 GMT

Hi,I'm the friend Belle is talking about. My son has been a patient of kkh child development unit since 4 yr. He has speech difficulties, cannot express himself and suspected ADHD keep in view by psychologist doctor. Before entering p1 a letter was given to the school to inform the teachers about his special needs.

When i ask him yesterday why he pinch his classmates he looks at me in shame and sadness but can't explain why he did it. Its really breaks my heart
I'm trying to find a private councelling centre that he can attend coz gov takes a long time once a year see psychologist doc. Any recommendation ?

Reply to P1 Punishment on Thu, 21 Apr 2011 02:54:59 GMT

Sun_2010 — Thu, 21 Apr 2011 02:54:59 GMT

Chenonceau:
I'm not against corporal punishment but do think that it needs to be a last resort. Was this a last resort? Were other measures implemented before to little effect?

I also think corporal punishment needs to be administered in...

(1) tightly controlled situations (i.e., state the EXACT number of pinches before the punishment starts and stick to it)

(2) with formal adult witnesses (i.e., in the presence of at least ONE other Teacher/Parent aside from the Form Teacher)

(3) by someone emotionally (i.e., emotionally stable) and intellectually competent (i.e., with capacity to clearly discern why this is being done and the limits to the act). I don't think the victims of the bully are emotionally competent and I don't think children are intellectually competent to administer corporal punishment to a peer.

(4) by someone physically incompetent (i.e., someone not physically very strong e.g., not a 7 ft tall desert commando, to prevent accidental grievous hurt). Children are not themselves strong, but children with long nails CAN draw blood.

(5) in conditions where the subject's privacy is protected (i.e., not in public by members of the public such as classmates)

(6) after explaining very clearly to the child why it is being done and how (i.e., this concerns the sanctity of the child's body... I tell my kids that no one owns their physical body except them. No one can touch them or hurt their bodies in any way without their agreement. And if they disagree, they must seek help or fight. Initially, it was to protect them from possible sexual abuse in situations where I was absent from their sides... but when I had to cane them, they confronted me with this logic so we had to institute this as a rule too). Children can understand and agree to just punishment even if it hurts. When they agree and accept, the relationship is preserved.

Totally agree.
Objective of the Physical punishment is important.
Physical punishment as revenge is not the answer, as a deterent can be acceptable if other means have failed.

Any punishment - when administered in an emotionally not stable state is hardly effective. Like why nagging is never effective.

Of course the teacher seems to have taken time to do it - not decided on the spur of the moment. Like some have pointed out maybe measures were taken earlier, warnings given, etc. So yes, it is not a black and white case.
what is done is done, how can the class learn/heal from this?
I liked what BlueBells suggests -

On the other hand, perhaps a followup session for the class to apologise to each other for causing hurt / pain to another may sooth the sore and bring about better values?

Reply to P1 Punishment on Thu, 21 Apr 2011 01:58:41 GMT

KAN — Thu, 21 Apr 2011 01:58:41 GMT

Chenonceau:
I'm not against corporal punishment but do think that it needs to be a last resort. Was this a last resort? Were other measures implemented before to little effect?

I agree with Chenoceau. Corporal punishment should always be a last resort.

I think the teacher can get the children who were pinched by the boy to line up and the boy to apologise to all those children individually rather than get the children to pinch him. Or maybe the teacher can make the boy to write a letter of apology to all those who he pinched. That way he get his punishment and probably improve his letter writing??

Reply to P1 Punishment on Thu, 21 Apr 2011 01:52:16 GMT

BeContented — Thu, 21 Apr 2011 01:52:16 GMT

QuiteKSMum:
Rem when I was in P3, T asked us (Chinese girls) what's tent in chinese. None of us could answer and she asked all the chinese girls to queue up and let the malay classmates slap us! Physical pain I cannot rem liao, but this episode is still v.fresh in my mind even thou more than 30 yrs have passed. BTW, the T is a Chinese lady...maybe she's having PMS on that day... :? :x

Of course during that era, most of us don't go & complain to our parents. Maybe I did, but they just listened only, no action taken...

Gosh, quite bad eh. Yes, during our time.....teacher is BIG, teacher always CORRECT.
I also remembered an incident in P5....my Chinese teacher slept in class and we were to self-study. I told a male classmate \"老师在发白日梦\" and he laughed too loudly and woke the teacher. She was very angry, came over and slapped me so hard on the shoulder that I felt forward a few steps. I felt so :x cos' I'm stating fact. Guess during our time, we just suffer in silence.....

Reply to P1 Punishment on Thu, 21 Apr 2011 01:50:06 GMT

Chenonceau — Thu, 21 Apr 2011 01:50:06 GMT

QuiteKSMum:
Rem when I was in P3, T asked us (Chinese girls) what's tent in chinese. None of us could answer and she asked all the chinese girls to queue up and let the malay classmates slap us! Physical pain I cannot rem liao, but this episode is still v.fresh in my mind even thou more than 30 yrs have passed. BTW, the T is a Chinese lady...maybe she's having PMS on that day... :? :x

Of course during that era, most of us don't go & complain to our parents. Maybe I did, but they just listened only, no action taken...

:faint: :sick: :!:

Reply to P1 Punishment on Thu, 21 Apr 2011 01:46:04 GMT

corneyAmber — Thu, 21 Apr 2011 01:46:04 GMT

QuiteKSMum:
Rem when I was in P3, T asked us (Chinese girls) what's tent in chinese. None of us could answer and she asked all the chinese girls to queue up and let the malay classmates slap us! Physical pain I cannot rem liao, but this episode is still v.fresh in my mind even thou more than 30 yrs have passed. BTW, the T is a Chinese lady...maybe she's having PMS on that day... :? :x

Of course during that era, most of us don't go & complain to our parents. Maybe I did, but they just listened only, no action taken...

:!: :!: :!:

Reply to P1 Punishment on Thu, 21 Apr 2011 01:43:53 GMT

QuiteKSMum — Thu, 21 Apr 2011 01:43:53 GMT

Rem when I was in P3, T asked us (Chinese girls) what's tent in chinese. None of us could answer and she asked all the chinese girls to queue up and let the malay classmates slap us! Physical pain I cannot rem liao, but this episode is still v.fresh in my mind even thou more than 30 yrs have passed. BTW, the T is a Chinese lady...maybe she's having PMS on that day... :? :x

Of course during that era, most of us don't go & complain to our parents. Maybe I did, but they just listened only, no action taken...

Reply to P1 Punishment on Thu, 21 Apr 2011 01:27:01 GMT

Chenonceau — Thu, 21 Apr 2011 01:27:01 GMT

I’m not against corporal punishment but do think that it needs to be a last resort. Was this a last resort? Were other measures implemented before to little effect?

I also think corporal punishment needs to be administered in…

(1) tightly controlled situations (i.e., state the EXACT number of pinches before the punishment starts and stick to it)

(2) with formal adult witnesses (i.e., in the presence of at least ONE other Teacher/Parent aside from the Form Teacher)

(3) by someone emotionally (i.e., emotionally stable) and intellectually competent (i.e., with capacity to clearly discern why this is being done and the limits to the act). I don’t think the victims of the bully are emotionally competent and I don’t think children are intellectually competent to administer corporal punishment to a peer.

(4) by someone physically incompetent (i.e., someone not physically very strong e.g., not a 7 ft tall desert commando, to prevent accidental grievous hurt). Children are not themselves strong, but children with long nails CAN draw blood.

(5) in conditions where the subject’s privacy is protected (i.e., not in public by members of the public such as classmates)

(6) after explaining very clearly to the child why it is being done and how (i.e., this concerns the sanctity of the child’s body… I tell my kids that no one owns their physical body except them. No one can touch them or hurt their bodies in any way without their agreement. And if they disagree, they must seek help or fight. Initially, it was to protect them from possible sexual abuse in situations where I was absent from their sides… but when I had to cane them, they confronted me with this logic so we had to institute this as a rule too). Children can understand and agree to just punishment even if it hurts. When they agree and accept, the relationship is preserved.

Reply to P1 Punishment on Thu, 21 Apr 2011 01:08:04 GMT

BlueBells — Thu, 21 Apr 2011 01:08:04 GMT

While your friend and the teacher came to a consensus on the punishment, their expectation of it was totally not aligned, thus the number of kids involved and the degree of hurt inflicted.

What’s done can’t be undone. I hope your friend’s child learnt that his behaviour was really not acceptable.

On the other hand, perhaps a followup session for the class to apologise to each other for causing hurt / pain to another may sooth the sore and bring about better values?

Reply to P1 Punishment on Wed, 20 Apr 2011 16:41:13 GMT

bellerina — Wed, 20 Apr 2011 16:41:13 GMT

The teacher informed my friend after the incident & my friend agreed to it at first. Thinking that only a few kids did it. But when her P1 returned with the arms full of ‘injuries’ & told her the whole class was asked to queue & pinched him. Both of us felt that it is too much! I advice her to talk to the form teacher & counsellor.

My friend’s boy did said that it is another boy who started it first, but it is a P1’s word against another P1. Although my friend’s boy is not angel, but getting the whole class to go against him? My dd said it right, the teacher is encouraging violent. An eye for an eye she tot is not encourage in school?!

Reply to P1 Punishment on Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:52:44 GMT

corneyAmber — Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:52:44 GMT

buds:

As for punishment, i just have to say.. that there are parents who will
never punish their children no matter how rude or ill-behaved they
are and it disturbs me.. i've experienced personally how a parent
just sweet talk her boy when he spat at my teachers' faces..

Just lulling sweet talk.. and you won't believe there was not
even an apology. Disturbing... really.

This is a case of the other extreme. Parents who behave this way is indeed disturbing.

Reply to P1 Punishment on Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:45:41 GMT

buds — Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:45:41 GMT

bellerina:
Any advice? I got a friend with a P1 boy goes around pinching his classmates today.

What did your friend have to say about this behaviour?

What advice did you offer after he/she shared this incident with you?

bellerina:
Then, his TR asked the whole class to queue & pinch his back. The reason is to make him feel the pain he did to others.

Is is a habit of this child going round pinching others?

Did your friend agree to this punishment given by the teacher?

What kind of punishment your friend had in mind? How is the child
usually punished at home?

bellerina:
But the poor boy got blue-black & nail marks on his both arms. He cried for a long time in class.

How about the poor children who have been the brunt of his pinching then?
In my opinion, they are poor things as well. I also question how there was
no staff present during this pinching spree on everyone in class..

bellerina:
My friend & the TR both knows that he got behavior problem. But is this the right way to punish him???

Punishments are subjective to every individual... whose to say whose
way is the right way.. perhaps a handful may think punishment isn't
even considered a way..

My apologies. Can't think of constructive reply perhaps, unless there are
details of the child, his usual behaviour, is it a habit, is he an only child, the parent's disciplinary methods so far.. and more details of how and
why the pinching spree occured in the first place.. (etc)

As for punishment, i just have to say.. that there are parents who will
never punish their children no matter how rude or ill-behaved they
are and it disturbs me.. i've experienced personally how a parent
just sweet talk her boy when he spat at my teachers' faces..

Just lulling sweet talk.. and you won't believe there was not
even an apology. Disturbing... really.

Reply to P1 Punishment on Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:25:36 GMT

corneyAmber — Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:25:36 GMT

I disagree to the way it was done. It is not good to use children to go against children nor allow a group to execute a punishment on a child as they lack the maturity to understand what is going on. The punished child not only suffered the physical pain but ran the risk of being ostracised after this humiliating punishment executed by the classmates.

He should be punished and the need to punish him could be made known to the class as a learning point. However, how to punish him should be something the teacher can discuss with the parents and carried out appropriately without scarring the child for prolong period. Even getting the parent to pinch him to experience the pain is better than getting the children.

A teacher who garners a group of kids’ support to punish another child is a teacher bully. As an adult, with so much authority over a child, doing that shows how immature the teacher is herself/himself.

Reply to P1 Punishment on Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:17:39 GMT

rong05 — Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:17:39 GMT

IMHO, i feel this is not right. Regardless of age, this punishment is not right. Though i understand ‘do not do onto others what you do not want others to do onto u’… This is ridiculous esp to the extend that the boy has blue black and nail marks. No physical / corporal punishment is allowed unless the child has commited a really serious offence. Especially to a P1 child, it is strictly no no.

I think your friend should speak to the teacher & principal.

Reply to P1 Punishment on Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:04:38 GMT

smurf — Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:04:38 GMT

No lah, just the involved kids. Whatever punishment, the child has to learn his lesson. No use talk and talk and the child dun listen at all. Something has to be done.