Overseas Kids are better?

Reply to Overseas Kids are better? on Thu, 24 May 2012 02:54:14 GMT

ruohoo97 — Thu, 24 May 2012 02:54:14 GMT

2ppaamm:
.... It is not difficult for our kids to excel in almost any country, as long as we continue to be vigilant parents and encourage our kids to work hard to achieve their dreams.

However, going overseas gives the children a chance to learn independence, even if the parents go along. Outside Singapore, children are allowed to make errors so they learn more, especially in the important life skills department. Certainly and ironically, they think more, and are more confident to speak up. I hope our Singaporean children absorb more of such a culture without losing our own specialty in studying hard. When they come back, they will really shine if we parents do our jobs well. :celebrate:

Happened to come across this thread, wow, what an eye opening! Thanks for all had shared their views, esp, 2ppaamm's. :thankyou:

Reply to Overseas Kids are better? on Sat, 03 Dec 2011 14:21:30 GMT

2ppaamm — Sat, 03 Dec 2011 14:21:30 GMT

:censored:

Reply to Overseas Kids are better? on Sat, 03 Dec 2011 00:17:33 GMT

micko07 — Sat, 03 Dec 2011 00:17:33 GMT

2ppaamm:
You really think so?

I was referring specifically to the Singaporean universities, and not the broader Singaporean education system in general (which was arguably what the article was concerned with, though I can certainly relate to some of the criticisms). There's definitely a case for arguing that there's a co-relation between the two (and I would think there is one), but I believe that they're still quite distinct.

I'm thinking specifically about two important factors why students are attracted to a university (amongst other factors like school culture, variety of activities offered, school campus, grading system, curriculum etc) - prestige and resources. Success breeds success - a chief reason why people go to all these top universities is because their systems have been shown to work well over time (whether it be the standard of eduation or graduate prospects!. In that sense, the local schools lose out because they simply don't have the same long tradition of excellence (for example, Oxford is 9 centuries old, Harvard 3 centuries old and NUS just over a cenutry old). They have to work extremely hard to break this cycle (all things being equal, fewer people would give up a place at Cambridge to study at a local U, than vice versa). This is not to say that older universities are necessarily better, but I don't think it's purely coincidental that many, if not all of the top universities are relatively older institutions.

The lack of resources also hurts our local universities. Our endowments are nowhere near that of the Ivies (or even Oxbridge for that matter) - this translates to various issues such as less funding for research, less subsidies for students (compared to the top US colleges who can match full-need, sometimes even need-blind), a higher academic to student ratio (and thuss an inability to replicate the tutorial system which Oxbridge are particularly famous for) and so on.

Something my mother pointed out was also that a) we have only 4/5 public universities at the moment, b) we have a small population (and hence, a smaller talent pool) and c) our universities are public ones (which implies they have a broader social function in educating citizens). If our universities decided they would only take top students (eg impose an AAA requirement for all subjects, regardless of popularity aka Oxford), there would undoubtedly be a huge outcry. Not all students are cut of the same cloth - students in the UK and US have many other lower-tier universities they could go to (The different branches of U of California demonstrate this IMO). If even just 1 or 2 universities did this in Singapore, this would effectively force many less academically-able students to go overseas for tertiary education, which is undoubtedly something that won't sit well with many Singaporeans or the government. (Of course, one could argue that only the best should go to university but that's a topic for another day).

Do I think there's room for improvement? Of course I do. Do I agree that some of the criticisms are valid? Yes (and I say this as someone spent 12+ years in the national system, complained fairly often about various aspects like the inability of the curriculum to be tailored to individual interests and currently studies for her undergrad degree overseas). But overall do I think that the disparity between our local universities (read: NOT our local education system generally) is largely (ie >50%) not their fault? Yes, I really think so although my reasoning is of course not fool-proof and certainly not gospel truth.

Reply to Overseas Kids are better? on Fri, 02 Dec 2011 13:53:46 GMT

2ppaamm — Fri, 02 Dec 2011 13:53:46 GMT

Have a read, have a thought. You don't have to agree to everything this writer says.

http://collegetimes.us/singapores-education-system-rigid-competitive-and-determined/

And then look at this place - the REAL (not self-proclaimed) 3rd best education system in the world.
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntdYxqRce_s][/youtube]

Reply to Overseas Kids are better? on Fri, 02 Dec 2011 13:13:08 GMT

2ppaamm — Fri, 02 Dec 2011 13:13:08 GMT

micko07:

I agree that it's going to be difficult to raise the standards of our local universities. We're competing with universities worldwide for talent, many of whom command far more prestige and resources than our local universities can offer (admittedly, this disparity is largely through no fault of our own). That said, it is a worthy aspiration (though with all honesty, I don't foresee any of the local universities reaching a status that rivals the top in the world like Oxbridge, the Ivies, Stanford, MIT etc, at least in the near future).

You really think so?

Reply to Overseas Kids are better? on Fri, 02 Dec 2011 00:44:07 GMT

micko07 — Fri, 02 Dec 2011 00:44:07 GMT

2ppaamm:
I hope that more leaders will be from local unis one day, or perhaps provide local scholarships to high achievers instead of foreign universities. If is not easy to raise the standard of the university. O, I don't want to say too much, just suffice to say it is a long, long way.

Just like to add that there are plenty of scholarships offered by the local universities, on top of the ones offered by governmental and private bodies.

I agree that it's going to be difficult to raise the standards of our local universities. We're competing with universities worldwide for talent, many of whom command far more prestige and resources than our local universities can offer (admittedly, this disparity is largely through no fault of our own). That said, it is a worthy aspiration (though with all honesty, I don't foresee any of the local universities reaching a status that rivals the top in the world like Oxbridge, the Ivies, Stanford, MIT etc, at least in the near future).

Reply to Overseas Kids are better? on Thu, 01 Dec 2011 14:58:08 GMT

2ppaamm — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 14:58:08 GMT

ksi:
2ppaamm, I agree with your brainstorming points. My key point is if a family have the means to support a different education approach that suits the child better then by all means, go and experience it and this would be by choice as 2ppaamm termed it 'right side move'. It is always good exposure to experience more to make ourselves more global. However for parents without the choice, don't worry too much because ultimately what is impt is to develop good indept thinking in yr child and continue to swim in the system. This ability can still help your child differentiates himself or herself without being cloned to be cookie-cutter product of our system. It is harder but definitely an option which most people have to rely on.

Vks2010, with our very short history of our tertiary institutions, it is tough to claim we produce the brightest people in the world. So for the leaders of the country they need to be taught by more experienced and established unis to lend more credibility to their training process to become future leaders. Having said this our local unis will eventually be the production ground of some future leaders.... Eg would be Teo ser luck from ntu and probably Tay ping hui in next GE from NUS......

Yes, I agree that if a family is not able to send the kids overseas, then it is not end of the world. Interestingly, it is the kids from poorer families that impress me more. At least, they have 'fire in their bellies'. A few of my students from the poorer families surprise me with their tenacity and can-do attitude.

I hope that more leaders will be from local unis one day, or perhaps provide local scholarships to high achievers instead of foreign universities. If is not easy to raise the standard of the university. O, I don't want to say too much, just suffice to say it is a long, long way.

Reply to Overseas Kids are better? on Thu, 01 Dec 2011 12:07:21 GMT

corneyAmber — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 12:07:21 GMT

2ppaamm, I agree with your brainstorming points. My key point is if a family have the means to support a different education approach that suits the child better then by all means, go and experience it and this would be by choice as 2ppaamm termed it ‘right side move’. It is always good exposure to experience more to make ourselves more global. However for parents without the choice, don’t worry too much because ultimately what is impt is to develop good indept thinking in yr child and continue to swim in the system. This ability can still help your child differentiates himself or herself without being cloned to be cookie-cutter product of our system. It is harder but definitely an option which most people have to rely on.

Vks2010, with our very short history of our tertiary institutions, it is tough to claim we produce the brightest people in the world. So for the leaders of the country they need to be taught by more experienced and established unis to lend more credibility to their training process to become future leaders. Having said this our local unis will eventually be the production ground of some future leaders… Eg would be Teo ser luck from ntu and probably Tay ping hui in next GE from NUS…

Reply to Overseas Kids are better? on Thu, 01 Dec 2011 04:04:43 GMT

2ppaamm — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 04:04:43 GMT

verykiasu2010:
Pam, thanks for the comment

my kids and their friends could be going together ..... these few days are like having conferences of families liddat .... debating on which school is better, what are the options on which uni to go and which course .....

the main thinking has been along the line of whether can get into the desire courses in local u....if not then why go through the pain and then eventually end up with the same path 2 years later ......

probably will make a trip there to see the places and see how ready they are to go .... one at a time, the younger one won't be going so soon but all these discussions have opened up their options .

You know, if you have a bunch of kids going together, you have so much more options. Your younger kids can 'tag along' and go to high school, or private schools overseas, and the costs is quickly lowered. With a few families, the parents can take turns to 'watch over' the children. (I am assuming all parents are equally accountable and responsible.) That way, the effort is quickly lessened and support is in place.

I didn't have that kind of support. I pretty much solo everything. You are really blessed. Have a thought. Overseas options are not that difficult to achieve, as long as we are willing to put in the effort and take those few steps. Again, weigh in the pros and cons. THERE ARE CONS, just like every system, make sure the pros outweigh them and then handle each possible disadvantage and mitigate that. Remember 孟母三迁? I always remind myself the story... seeking the best for our children if we want the best for them.

Reply to Overseas Kids are better? on Thu, 01 Dec 2011 03:24:58 GMT

2ppaamm — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 03:24:58 GMT

verykiasu2010:
why are most of the gov't scholars headed overseas ?

what does that imply ?

risks of going overseas : the kids won't come back to SG after graduating .....

they find their niche overseas and become very mobile with a global perspective which is of course good but ........

That has been an observation for so long, I just find it interesting that our 'common kids' are fighting to get into the local universities but then all our best scholars and 90% of our political leaders are from overseas. Think about it: when you look at the resumes of the person, won't you be more impressed to see some quality overseas universities than local ones?

Some years back, there were some big storm about overseas scholars who refused to return to Singapore. I don't think I have that problem with my children even though they left young. If we have grounded our children with the right perspectives and values, then I think they will always love their country. In fact, some of my kids were given opportunities to be in the national team of another country, but they are reluctant to renounce their citizenships for personal glory. If the child decides to leave, then he is not worth keeping. It also reflects the effectiveness of our national education. :sad: It is sad that the gahmen seem to associate all who disagree with them to be 'opponents'. Fortunately, the 'broadmindedness' in us believes that though we disagree with a thing or two, we still respect and support our leaders. Think how much they would have gained if they are able to digest this fact and choose to seek counsel of those who have different views.

Reply to Overseas Kids are better? on Thu, 01 Dec 2011 02:47:19 GMT

verykiasu2010 — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 02:47:19 GMT

why are most of the gov’t scholars headed overseas ?

what does that imply ?

risks of going overseas : the kids won’t come back to SG after graduating …

they find their niche overseas and become very mobile with a global perspective which is of course good but …

Reply to Overseas Kids are better? on Thu, 01 Dec 2011 00:12:51 GMT

2ppaamm — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 00:12:51 GMT

ksi:
Fellow parents...why worry? Look at yourselves(when I read all your debates), aren't we all brought up in the same system? Is our thinking boxed up? I believe we were all suppressed but our natural self will precede no matter what....so take heart, no need to be so worried. I used to think like all of us, then I realised I swam in the ink daily for so many years but the ink did not stick on me. Independent thinking is all it takes.

You know, very good reminder that overseas is NOT the only path. I went overseas because there was no more sensible/logical path for me here in Singapore. So when do you go overseas, let's brainstorm:
1. The child cannot find fulfillment (even with us planning external activities) in the local system.
2. No more path for advancement in the area he/she is interested in.
3. Other kids are going, good support system in place.
4. Children's psychological state is affected by the local system
5. Parents are working overseas.
6. New opportunities for student there, e.g. scholarships.
7. Yep, indeed if there's little chance or if it takes so much less effort academically (and therefore can spend more time focus on other aspects of life) to get into the same course, might as well go earlier if support is in place.

I call my case 'right side move', because a lot of people go overseas because they cannot make it in Singapore's system. We go because we want a different kind of education, not because my kids cannot make it. They certainly would have made it in Singapore as well. But for us, going overseas made it so much harder for me, but I believe it is for the better of the children, not because they won't survive here (3 of my kids go to very, very good secondary schools), but because we choose a better lifestyle and want to work on other things (like social stuff, sports, independence thinking etc). The 'left side move' is quite different, many went overseas because there were no more opportunities in Singapore for the kids' education.

So yes, staying in Singapore does not necessary mean we all get 'inked', but if the opportunity presents, then I'd prefer to go overseas albeit with some sacrifices. It does not mean those who stay behind on the system are necessarily inferior, I was brought up in this system, so were you. I can agree that both of us really think out of the box.

But all my life, I thought I was stupid even though I went to the best schools. Because my teachers made me feel this way everyday. I thought how my life would have been different just if I knew I was not stupid. But it was too late. I discovered I was just at least normal at 40 years old.

Reply to Overseas Kids are better? on Wed, 30 Nov 2011 15:45:09 GMT

corneyAmber — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 15:45:09 GMT

Fellow parents…why worry? Look at yourselves(when I read all your debates), aren’t we all brought up in the same system? Is our thinking boxed up? I believe we were all suppressed but our natural self will precede no matter what…so take heart, no need to be so worried. I used to think like all of us, then I realised I swam in the ink daily for so many years but the ink did not stick on me. Independent thinking is all it takes.

Reply to Overseas Kids are better? on Wed, 30 Nov 2011 15:35:02 GMT

jedamum — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 15:35:02 GMT

overseas or local studies, i think parents make the difference la. my PIL hands off all decision right after PSLE, so my husband planned his own education route. he skipped one O-level paper to focus on the rest and went non-main stream route after O-levels. i asked him why he think gahman (supposedly red tape people) want to employ him he said cos sometimes they want someone to think out of the box to improve work processes....whether they adopt suggestions is another matter. i find him very creative ...the way he hang laundry using half the number of clothes pegs and clothes hangers....very inspiring :rotflmao:

Reply to Overseas Kids are better? on Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:48:18 GMT

verykiasu2010 — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:48:18 GMT

Pam, thanks for the comment

my kids and their friends could be going together … these few days are like having conferences of families liddat … debating on which school is better, what are the options on which uni to go and which course …

the main thinking has been along the line of whether can get into the desire courses in local u…if not then why go through the pain and then eventually end up with the same path 2 years later …

probably will make a trip there to see the places and see how ready they are to go … one at a time, the younger one won’t be going so soon but all these discussions have opened up their options .

Reply to Overseas Kids are better? on Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:44:10 GMT

2ppaamm — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:44:10 GMT

daisyt:
Its not that our kids are not better but our education system suppress their thinking and views. Our kids are quite smart though... They know what can be said and what cannot during discussion in class in order not to be marked. What types of model answers the teachers want to hear. Even you want to raise your view on issue you disagree, must do it the right way and not the left way. I love to listen to her telling me about their lesson on Singapore Studies and the type of so called model answers and how the classmates behave in this lesson. Must salute these 15 year old kids!

I think Singapore has more than smart kids. We have the best parents in the world. That is a problem itself, leaving educators to always fall back on parents and kids, and they do not take responsibility in teaching sometimes. If the kid does not do his homework, call the parent, if his work is poor, call the parent, if he misbehaves, call the parent. Teachers seem 'impotent' these days.

Teachers, because of their KPI system, are becoming less and less influential in academic areas, afraid to make mistakes. Even if they think the child's answers are right sometimes, they hesitate to stick their heads out and mark the child correct, because the model answer is right. Of course lah, who wants to take responsibility for being different, just follow the model answer is always safe and someone else's problem.

This kind of culture than got passed on to our children. Everyone becomes kiasi and then it becomes second nature. After some time, they cannot and don't know how to unlock that creativity and thought process anymore. Takes a lot of time at tertiary to unlock that. Compared to overseas student who do not have this burden. This afraid-to-be-wrong culture was not as real in other countries, and hence they can explore a lot more.

So yes, we have students who perhaps are born smarter, but our system certainly do not allow the unlocking of this potential. Our students are not very prepared for tertiary, and certainly very ill prepared for post grad, unless that culture within them change.

Reply to Overseas Kids are better? on Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:34:00 GMT

2ppaamm — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:34:00 GMT

verykiasu2010:
SAHM_TAN:
[quote=\"verykiasu2010\"]so now I am thinking whether to send the kids out from singapore after their sec 4 and sec 2 respectively ....

seriously?

seriously!!
in order not to be \"boxed up\" in their thinking by the system[/quote]Really depends on your family support structure. Don't just send the kids out and then expect miracles to happen. You are a great parent, so don't stop being one. I've also seen some parents who sent their kids overseas and left them there with relatives thinking everything will be ok. Well, most times everything can be ok, sometimes not. So I won't take chances.

In most countries, the problem with them, in my opinion is soft parenting. I am never a fan of any education system, so I believe parents play the biggest role. If the kid goes overseas and you follow along, I think it is important not to follow their soft parenting style. It is not difficult for our kids to excel in almost any country, as long as we continue to be vigilant parents and encourage our kids to work hard to achieve their dreams.

However, going overseas gives the children a chance to learn independence, even if the parents go along. Outside Singapore, children are allowed to make errors so they learn more, especially in the important life skills department. Certainly and ironically, they think more, and are more confident to speak up. I hope our Singaporean children absorb more of such a culture without losing our own specialty in studying hard. When they come back, they will really shine if we parents do our jobs well. :celebrate:

Reply to Overseas Kids are better? on Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:04:15 GMT

SAHM_TAN — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:04:15 GMT

verykiasu2010:
seriously!!

in order not to be \"boxed up\" in their thinking by the system

But....but....if remembered correctly from your other posts, your kids are in very very very good school, there also kena boxed?

Reply to Overseas Kids are better? on Wed, 30 Nov 2011 13:32:25 GMT

verykiasu2010 — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 13:32:25 GMT

SAHM_TAN:
verykiasu2010:
so now I am thinking whether to send the kids out from singapore after their sec 4 and sec 2 respectively ....

seriously?

seriously!!
in order not to be \"boxed up\" in their thinking by the system

Reply to Overseas Kids are better? on Wed, 30 Nov 2011 13:28:16 GMT

SAHM_TAN — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 13:28:16 GMT

verykiasu2010:
so now I am thinking whether to send the kids out from singapore after their sec 4 and sec 2 respectively ....

seriously?

Reply to Overseas Kids are better? on Wed, 30 Nov 2011 12:37:20 GMT

verykiasu2010 — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 12:37:20 GMT

so now I am thinking whether to send the kids out from singapore after their sec 4 and sec 2 respectively …

Reply to Overseas Kids are better? on Wed, 30 Nov 2011 12:29:02 GMT

daisyt — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 12:29:02 GMT

Its not that our kids are not better but our education system suppress their thinking and views. Our kids are quite smart though… They know what can be said and what cannot during discussion in class in order not to be marked. What types of model answers the teachers want to hear. Even you want to raise your view on issue you disagree, must do it the right way and not the left way. I love to listen to her telling me about their lesson on Singapore Studies and the type of so called model answers and how the classmates behave in this lesson. Must salute these 15 year old kids!

Reply to Overseas Kids are better? on Mon, 28 Nov 2011 16:28:45 GMT

SAHM_TAN — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 16:28:45 GMT

insider:

emmm...this forum maybe one of the worst places for you to find your way coz you are likely to 'learn' the wrong things! Hahaha....

Your eldest seems to be in good hands. When I am in mood, will meet you at Hong Wen thread to share with you more. I owe Hong Wen a great tribute for giving my two elder kids wonderful and unforgettable primary school lives for solid six years (despite also having 'bad' teachers around)...

:rotflmao:

I think this forum helps to let me work out my anxiety and then I try to be the parent I want to be, does it make sense?

I have good gut feel about the school. My DH likes the P.

I just need to tame my inner demon

Reply to Overseas Kids are better? on Mon, 28 Nov 2011 12:48:07 GMT

2ppaamm — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 12:48:07 GMT

Tell you another story. I have a friend whose son was selected by an Australian English teacher to say the pledge in school. He is only in P2. The family was so happy and the little boy practiced hard for that special day.

Then, the form teacher and principal found out about it and changed the pledge sayer, because my friend’s son was not the top student. My friend went to school to reason with the principal and form teacher, that this really hurts the boy, and why should only the top boy be eligible to say the pledge? She also asked that the school consider letting her son go on with this, and then implement their policy in future. Of course she didn’t manage to get her point across. What do parents understand, notwithstanding she has a post grad degree in psychology.
My friend then met with this Australian teacher at a later time and asked about the situation. The teacher just said she couldn’t do much, and she was so happy to leave the job as a teacher. She said, "I’m leaving so that I can live." Found it so funny. Good teachers leave, leaving those who are happy with status quo to stay. I pondered and concluded where all great teachers end up - better money as tutors. Intelligent individual choice. Poor kids.