IP failures...has MOE been transparent?

Reply to IP failures...has MOE been transparent? on Sat, 24 Nov 2012 07:11:58 GMT

concerned mom — Sat, 24 Nov 2012 07:11:58 GMT

I have a child in the o level route and one in the IP and I must say the types of programmes and exposure and opportunities available to the IP students far far exceeds those in normal o level schools. Having said that the child must be self motivated and driven else if he or she chooses to pass over each of these opportunities then it is a waste. Also. Without having to focus on another national exam within the 6 years means more time for a more interesting curriculum.

Reply to IP failures...has MOE been transparent? on Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:24:00 GMT

Edureach — Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:24:00 GMT

It all boils down to how much parents know their kids. They are students wanting to appeal to RI desperately with low 260s and others with high 260s opted for other good schools.

Some value prestige over time ie preparing to travel all the way to Bishan even if ACS/VJ/NJC are just a stone throw away. Was their decisions correct? I really don’t know.

As far as the top 5% of RI/HCI is concern, an ordinary good student cannot just work hard to be on par with this grp. One needs innate talents! We are talking about potential top scholarship recipents in this instance. This group is expected to attend selection tests during early cycle unlike the others.

Personally, i do not see a difference btw having an IP education as opposed to the O-level track in a top school. Good students excel in either track. But for a student truly gifted or excellent all rounder, a place in RI/HCI is highly desirable due to distinct advantage as discusssed earlier.

For the vast majority ie 97% of the cohort, it is not so clear.

Reply to IP failures...has MOE been transparent? on Thu, 26 Jan 2012 08:50:02 GMT

zeemimi — Thu, 26 Jan 2012 08:50:02 GMT

My DD missed IP by just a few points few years back, but she’s doing well in a Band 1 sch and even been offered to do IP electives at VJC. So she can grad with a O lvl cert and enjoy some advantages of IP at the same time even though she is not in IP.

Reply to IP failures...has MOE been transparent? on Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:04:59 GMT

Dione — Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:04:59 GMT

verykiasu2010:
Dione:
[quote=\"Edureach\"]So many just think of nothing else but IP?

Here are the advantages of those who qualify for IP but choose 0-level route instead:

1. Increasingly, its easier to excel in 0-level due to decreasing no of high quality 0-level candiates especially in the nxt couple of yrs onwards.

2. Choice to opt to polys on scholarships if they can find a course that interest them and move on to unis from here. This will also position them well for the work place in future.

3. Opportunity to embark on a matriculation programme overseas in a good uni's preparation course vs- a-vs those on IP programme.

4. An excellent 0-level cert is well-recognised internationally whereas those who are unable to complete their IP hve nothing to show.

5. Even if unable to get a place in 1st tier jcs, still can proceed to top 2nd tier jcs as the latter also hve high proportion of students making it to local unis ie 85-90%.

A check with PSC and u will find there are a fair no of them winning OMS, SAFOS and even President scholarship. So opportunities abound, really doesn't matter whether studying in IP or non IP, RI/HCI.

Agreed with jtoh that parents must be sure that their kids can excel in IP before embarking upon it.
I agree with you, Edureach. But, What do you think if one is able to embark on the IP route but she is at the bottom of the group? For i.e, the sch take in 20 students for IP, and she is the 17th.
Do you reccommend her to join IP?

the 17th ranked at the input (year 1) may end up as 1st ranked at the endo of year 6

who is to judge that the respective ranking will stay forever ? smart guys may slacken and slide, consistent worker will move up with maturity as well

in the IP route, everyone has the same starting point and equal opportunity to prove one's ability[/quote]Oh, thank you very much for sharing this with me. Its true, I've seen people improving tremendously...

Reply to IP failures...has MOE been transparent? on Wed, 25 Jan 2012 05:40:32 GMT

verykiasu2010 — Wed, 25 Jan 2012 05:40:32 GMT

Chenonceau:
Unless RJC has 35 times the cohort of NJC (which is unlikely), there is still over/under-representation?

NJC has been severely disadvantaged in the last couple of years because the IP through-train program of other schools that have traditionally been strong in sec 1 - 4 have grabbed away almost all the top PSLE students from them when NJC did not have its own sec one intake...by the time NJC started its sec 3 three level, it is too late. And now then started with sec one, again been labelled as lack of track record for its IP......

NJC has been a late starter to the IP train, hence disadvantaged from the perspective of students intake

Reply to IP failures...has MOE been transparent? on Wed, 25 Jan 2012 05:33:44 GMT

verykiasu2010 — Wed, 25 Jan 2012 05:33:44 GMT

Dione:
Edureach:
So many just think of nothing else but IP?

Here are the advantages of those who qualify for IP but choose 0-level route instead:

1. Increasingly, its easier to excel in 0-level due to decreasing no of high quality 0-level candiates especially in the nxt couple of yrs onwards.

2. Choice to opt to polys on scholarships if they can find a course that interest them and move on to unis from here. This will also position them well for the work place in future.

3. Opportunity to embark on a matriculation programme overseas in a good uni's preparation course vs- a-vs those on IP programme.

4. An excellent 0-level cert is well-recognised internationally whereas those who are unable to complete their IP hve nothing to show.

5. Even if unable to get a place in 1st tier jcs, still can proceed to top 2nd tier jcs as the latter also hve high proportion of students making it to local unis ie 85-90%.

A check with PSC and u will find there are a fair no of them winning OMS, SAFOS and even President scholarship. So opportunities abound, really doesn't matter whether studying in IP or non IP, RI/HCI.

Agreed with jtoh that parents must be sure that their kids can excel in IP before embarking upon it.
I agree with you, Edureach. But, What do you think if one is able to embark on the IP route but she is at the bottom of the group? For i.e, the sch take in 20 students for IP, and she is the 17th.
Do you reccommend her to join IP?

Reply to IP failures...has MOE been transparent? on Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:59:52 GMT

Chenonceau — Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:59:52 GMT

Unless RJC has 35 times the cohort of NJC (which is unlikely), there is still over/under-representation?

Reply to IP failures...has MOE been transparent? on Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:38:16 GMT

Pen88n — Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:38:16 GMT

Chenonceau:
PSC 2011 Scholars

Raffles Insitution (JC) - 35 scholars
Hwa Chong Institution (JC) - 18 scholars
Victoria Junior College - 4 scholars
Anglo-Chinese Junior College - 1 scholar
Anglo-Chinese School (Independent) - 4 scholars
Jurong Junior College - 1 scholar
Dunman High - 5 scholars
River Valley High - 1 scholar
National Junior College - 1 scholar

Source:
http://www.pscscholarships.gov.sg/NR/rdonlyres/D00B408E-7E00-46D9-BF05-EB62E48FAA1A/0/ListofScholars2011.pdf
Note that very few of the RI, HCI scholars hail from other secondary schools than RI, HCI, RGS, Nanyang.

Clearly, from these numbers, we can conclude that those who can make it into the top 4 schools are FAR more likely to get PSC scholarships. How much that is due to the opportunities provided by the school... and how much due to the fact that we are dealing with top brains who would get scholarships EVEN IF made to go to other JCs, is an open question.

In my personal opinion, opting for IP is dangerous for the bottom 25% of the intake into RI, HCI, Nanyang and RGS. These students (IF they were not self-motivated in PSLE, and were DRIVEN to succeed by parental pressure) would benefit from taking 'O' levels. The 'O' levels is a useful preliminary milestone that teaches some important lessons about life (diligence and self-drive) and exam/study techniques. These lessons will be useful when tackling the 'A' levels.

At the end of the day, 'A' levels is the ticket to university.

Those who were self-motivated at PSLE but received poor teaching at PSLE, and still made it to these top 4 schools, will thrive in IP because independent learning is key. With a bit of effort, they can manage the last minute dash towards competence in exam skills and study techniques. Those who scored in the top 25% the PSLE t-score for entrance into these schools MAY have the innate intelligence to pick up these techniques fast even if they goof off much of the time. As for the middle, it could swing either way.

I would have appreciated that my DD take 'O' levels. This would have prevented a fair amount of last minute scrambling for study and exam techniques to cope with the 'A' levels. For DS, if he cannot make a comfortable cut-off into RI/HCI, then I would seriously consider the 'O' level route if only to maximise his chances of acing the 'A' levels.

Just wondering: is there is a significant difference in A Level cohort size of the schs / JCs? Shouldn't this be taken into consideration as well?

Sorry, I really do not know what is the cohort size of each of these schs / JCs, but maybe someone can provide an estimate to give a clearer picture of the achievement of the sch / JCs rather than depending on raw numbers alone. No doubt RIJC / HCJC may still be leading the pack overall.......

Reply to IP failures...has MOE been transparent? on Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:19:11 GMT

Dione — Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:19:11 GMT

Edureach:
So many just think of nothing else but IP?

Here are the advantages of those who qualify for IP but choose 0-level route instead:

1. Increasingly, its easier to excel in 0-level due to decreasing no of high quality 0-level candiates especially in the nxt couple of yrs onwards.

2. Choice to opt to polys on scholarships if they can find a course that interest them and move on to unis from here. This will also position them well for the work place in future.

3. Opportunity to embark on a matriculation programme overseas in a good uni's preparation course vs- a-vs those on IP programme.

4. An excellent 0-level cert is well-recognised internationally whereas those who are unable to complete their IP hve nothing to show.

5. Even if unable to get a place in 1st tier jcs, still can proceed to top 2nd tier jcs as the latter also hve high proportion of students making it to local unis ie 85-90%.

A check with PSC and u will find there are a fair no of them winning OMS, SAFOS and even President scholarship. So opportunities abound, really doesn't matter whether studying in IP or non IP, RI/HCI.

Agreed with jtoh that parents must be sure that their kids can excel in IP before embarking upon it.

I agree with you, Edureach. But, What do you think if one is able to embark on the IP route but she is at the bottom of the group? For i.e, the sch take in 20 students for IP, and she is the 17th.
Do you reccommend her to join IP?

Reply to IP failures...has MOE been transparent? on Wed, 21 Dec 2011 03:14:06 GMT

mysticbow — Wed, 21 Dec 2011 03:14:06 GMT

I am a student currently in NTU & from the IP students I know, most of them do well = get into university & a course they were aiming for. In the academic sphere, I would say the IP is doing pretty well, maybe even better than those who took the O lvls.

However, the main problem of the IP is the segregation it creates.
In RI, the IP students have alr been in sch for 4 years, & everyone knows everybody when they get promoted to JC. This creates a 2 groups, mainly the IP and the mainstream (those who got into RJ by O lvl results).
I have friends who got in RJ thru O lvls, and they said life was bad especially in the first few weeks. Why? People like to stick together, and when you know your friends for 4 years, it is pretty unlikely that they will include a total stranger & outsider into their group.

Having said that, it is also the responsibility of the mainstream students (those who got in thru O lvl results), to try to mix with the IP students.
In short, the IP creates some sort of an exclusive group especially within schools like RI, where they continue all the way from sec 1/sec3 to JC2. I’m not saying RI is the only school like that, but I’m merely using RI as an example.

Such exclusiveness happens in schools like NJC as well. And believe me, more funds are allocated to the IP programme than to the mainstream. So it is impossible, if not unthinkable, for an IP student to NOT do well when their sch is literally pouring so many resources on them.
Because of the unequal allocation of funds, the IP students DO INDEED get a better programme, and they get a rather interesting curriculum. The normal O lvl track cannot even be compared to their curriculum.

There definitely are cases where students drop out of the IP. But the reason is usually because they are not self-motivated enough, or maybe they have certain personal problems like family, etc, we don’t know.
But even then, every programme has its pros and cons, and it is up to the policy makers to tweak it either for the better, or for the worse.

Reply to IP failures...has MOE been transparent? on Sun, 18 Dec 2011 15:50:38 GMT

Hollyking — Sun, 18 Dec 2011 15:50:38 GMT

Snow Crystal:
Chenonceau:
PSC 2011 Scholars

Raffles Insitution (JC) - 35 scholars
Hwa Chong Institution (JC) - 18 scholars
Victoria Junior College - 4 scholars
Anglo-Chinese Junior College - 1 scholar
Anglo-Chinese School (Independent) - 4 scholars
Jurong Junior College - 1 scholar
Dunman High - 5 scholars
River Valley High - 1 scholar
National Junior College - 1 scholar
Basically translates to 50% RI(JC), 25% HCI and 25% rest of the JCs. Someone told me this % scenario is roughly same for recruitment into NUS medicine faculty. How about Law faculty? Maybe the same. If so, hey got trend leh. Unsaid rule of allocation.

tks for info

Reply to IP failures...has MOE been transparent? on Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:29:40 GMT

warriortemujin — Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:29:40 GMT

Does anyone has a copy of the article?

Reply to IP failures...has MOE been transparent? on Fri, 16 Dec 2011 04:53:00 GMT

Snow Crystal — Fri, 16 Dec 2011 04:53:00 GMT

Chenonceau:
PSC 2011 Scholars

Raffles Insitution (JC) - 35 scholars
Hwa Chong Institution (JC) - 18 scholars
Victoria Junior College - 4 scholars
Anglo-Chinese Junior College - 1 scholar
Anglo-Chinese School (Independent) - 4 scholars
Jurong Junior College - 1 scholar
Dunman High - 5 scholars
River Valley High - 1 scholar
National Junior College - 1 scholar

Basically translates to 50% RI(JC), 25% HCI and 25% rest of the JCs. Someone told me this % scenario is roughly same for recruitment into NUS medicine faculty. How about Law faculty? Maybe the same. If so, hey got trend leh. Unsaid rule of allocation.

Reply to IP failures...has MOE been transparent? on Fri, 16 Dec 2011 04:45:34 GMT

Chenonceau — Fri, 16 Dec 2011 04:45:34 GMT

PSC 2011 Scholars

Raffles Insitution (JC) - 35 scholars
Hwa Chong Institution (JC) - 18 scholars
Victoria Junior College - 4 scholars
Anglo-Chinese Junior College - 1 scholar
Anglo-Chinese School (Independent) - 4 scholars
Jurong Junior College - 1 scholar
Dunman High - 5 scholars
River Valley High - 1 scholar
National Junior College - 1 scholar

Source:
http://www.pscscholarships.gov.sg/NR/rdonlyres/D00B408E-7E00-46D9-BF05-EB62E48FAA1A/0/ListofScholars2011.pdf
Note that very few of the RI, HCI scholars hail from other secondary schools than RI, HCI, RGS, Nanyang.

Clearly, from these numbers, we can conclude that those who can make it into the top 4 schools are FAR more likely to get PSC scholarships. How much that is due to the opportunities provided by the school... and how much due to the fact that we are dealing with top brains who would get scholarships EVEN IF made to go to other JCs, is an open question.

In my personal opinion, opting for IP is dangerous for the bottom 25% of the intake into RI, HCI, Nanyang and RGS. These students (IF they were not self-motivated in PSLE, and were DRIVEN to succeed by parental pressure) would benefit from taking 'O' levels. The 'O' levels is a useful preliminary milestone that teaches some important lessons about life (diligence and self-drive) and exam/study techniques. These lessons will be useful when tackling the 'A' levels.

At the end of the day, 'A' levels is the ticket to university.

Those who were self-motivated at PSLE but received poor teaching at PSLE, and still made it to these top 4 schools, will thrive in IP because independent learning is key. With a bit of effort, they can manage the last minute dash towards competence in exam skills and study techniques. Those who scored in the top 25% the PSLE t-score for entrance into these schools MAY have the innate intelligence to pick up these techniques fast even if they goof off much of the time. As for the middle, it could swing either way.

I would have appreciated that my DD take 'O' levels. This would have prevented a fair amount of last minute scrambling for study and exam techniques to cope with the 'A' levels. For DS, if he cannot make a comfortable cut-off into RI/HCI, then I would seriously consider the 'O' level route if only to maximise his chances of acing the 'A' levels.

Reply to IP failures...has MOE been transparent? on Fri, 16 Dec 2011 03:58:34 GMT

Sotongmummy — Fri, 16 Dec 2011 03:58:34 GMT

Edureach:
So many just think of nothing else but IP?

Here are the advantages of those who qualify for IP but choose 0-level route instead:

1. Increasingly, its easier to excel in 0-level due to decreasing no of high quality 0-level candiates especially in the nxt couple of yrs onwards.

2. Choice to opt to polys on scholarships if they can find a course that interest them and move on to unis from here. This will also position them well for the work place in future.

3. Opportunity to embark on a matriculation programme overseas in a good uni's preparation course vs- a-vs those on IP programme.

4. An excellent 0-level cert is well-recognised internationally whereas those who are unable to complete their IP hve nothing to show.

5. Even if unable to get a place in 1st tier jcs, still can proceed to top 2nd tier jcs as the latter also hve high proportion of students making it to local unis ie 85-90%.

A check with PSC and u will find there are a fair no of them winning OMS, SAFOS and even President scholarship. So opportunities abound, really doesn't matter whether studying in IP or non IP, RI/HCI.

Agreed with jtoh that parents must be sure that their kids can excel in IP before embarking upon it.

Haahhh???? How to be sure that your kids can excel in IP? What are the criteria that the child must have? My dd got 252 +2. I actually put St Nick as first choice. Now after reading the forum, looks like it is very tough to get into the first tier JC thru 'O' level. Thinking of appealing to RV though we nvr put RV as any of our 6 choices. But looks like chances of success in the appeal seems very slim.....haizzzz.....

Reply to IP failures...has MOE been transparent? on Thu, 15 Dec 2011 11:08:53 GMT

CayennePepper — Thu, 15 Dec 2011 11:08:53 GMT

alng:

I heard that many students in the NUS Law school are from RI such that there are two groups of students there - the Rafflesians and non-Rafflesians.

OT a bit. It's true about the Rafflesians dominating NUS Law. I did a progamme there a while ago and observed that in the first year undergraduate classes, most of the kids already knew one another. There were soooooo many from the Raffles family. In fact, in some TGs, I could count on one hand the number of those not from RI...

Reply to IP failures...has MOE been transparent? on Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:11:45 GMT

Edureach — Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:11:45 GMT

very kiasu2010 and chenonceau

why do our top govt scholars chose foreign unis?

Maybe they think HYMPS and Oxbridge are more superior in various aspect including international name recognition. Our local unis with the exception of law and medicine are merely top farmers’ unis notwithstanding our strict academic entrance requirement. Anw, for medicine n law we do hve PSC scholars including a President scholar reading locally.

Another reason, since need to sign bond might as well choose the more expensive path and along the way also can experience other peoples’ culture and enjoy personal independence. Such attraction, hard to resist, that’s what my ds always say.

Just my opinion.

Reply to IP failures...has MOE been transparent? on Thu, 15 Dec 2011 09:59:54 GMT

Edureach — Thu, 15 Dec 2011 09:59:54 GMT

alng

RI’s domination in law faculty is mainly found in BT’s campus, NUS, but not the newer one, SMU law school. Anw, the annual intake is approx 235 and 125 respectively. The latter has a students’ population which is far more diversify comprising students from many jcs.

The selection criteria is based on 50% A-level results and 50% essay test n an interview. RI traditionally dominates GP, with distinction rate around 50% far above national of 20.3%. As the course requires min grade of B for gp, which explains why RI is so dominant in NUS law faculty.

SMU has a different appproach in selection though the selection criteria including gp requirement are similar to NUS. Hence, the diversity.

Reply to IP failures...has MOE been transparent? on Thu, 15 Dec 2011 09:53:57 GMT

Chenonceau — Thu, 15 Dec 2011 09:53:57 GMT

verykiasu2010:
Edureach:
[quote=\"alng\"]There are not many students from top JCs in the local uni, maybe other than medicine, dentistry and Law. Many should be having scholarships in overseas uni. Many students in the uni are from TJ, VJ, AJ, ACJC, etc.

Don't merely guess. Most RI/HCI students do head for local unis. Some simply are not keen to sign bond.

Other than the most popular courses, other competitive courses include: ddps, aerospace, chemical, renassance engineering, n pharmacy.

However, u are obsolutely correct that those jcs u mentioned hve high proportion of students studying in the local unis.

why do most of the government scholars head for overseas unis and not local u?[/quote]So that they can learn wisdom from elsewhere and come back to apply blindly to Singapore, never mind if it doesn't suit our specific situations?

Reply to IP failures...has MOE been transparent? on Thu, 15 Dec 2011 09:42:24 GMT

alng — Thu, 15 Dec 2011 09:42:24 GMT

Edureach:
alng:
There are not many students from top JCs in the local uni, maybe other than medicine, dentistry and Law. Many should be having scholarships in overseas uni. Many students in the uni are from TJ, VJ, AJ, ACJC, etc.

Don't merely guess. Most RI/HCI students do head for local unis. Some simply are not keen to sign bond.

Other than the most popular courses, other competitive courses include: ddps, aerospace, chemical, renassance engineering, n pharmacy.

However, u are obsolutely correct that those jcs u mentioned hve high proportion of students studying in the local unis.

This is not mere guessing but a personal observation in one of the schools in a local uni. That school attracts top students and has cut off of AAA at 90th percentile. But i am sorry that I have no stats to cite. Hope the uni or MOE can release more stats.

I heard that many students in the NUS Law school are from RI such that there are two groups of students there - the Rafflesians and non-Rafflesians.

Reply to IP failures...has MOE been transparent? on Thu, 15 Dec 2011 09:41:45 GMT

verykiasu2010 — Thu, 15 Dec 2011 09:41:45 GMT

Edureach:
alng:
There are not many students from top JCs in the local uni, maybe other than medicine, dentistry and Law. Many should be having scholarships in overseas uni. Many students in the uni are from TJ, VJ, AJ, ACJC, etc.

Don't merely guess. Most RI/HCI students do head for local unis. Some simply are not keen to sign bond.

Other than the most popular courses, other competitive courses include: ddps, aerospace, chemical, renassance engineering, n pharmacy.

However, u are obsolutely correct that those jcs u mentioned hve high proportion of students studying in the local unis.

why do most of the government scholars head for overseas unis and not local u?

Reply to IP failures...has MOE been transparent? on Thu, 15 Dec 2011 09:17:09 GMT

Edureach — Thu, 15 Dec 2011 09:17:09 GMT

alng:
There are not many students from top JCs in the local uni, maybe other than medicine, dentistry and Law. Many should be having scholarships in overseas uni. Many students in the uni are from TJ, VJ, AJ, ACJC, etc.

Don't merely guess. Most RI/HCI students do head for local unis. Some simply are not keen to sign bond.

Other than the most popular courses, other competitive courses include: ddps, aerospace, chemical, renassance engineering, n pharmacy.

However, u are obsolutely correct that those jcs u mentioned hve high proportion of students studying in the local unis.

Reply to IP failures...has MOE been transparent? on Thu, 15 Dec 2011 09:09:19 GMT

alng — Thu, 15 Dec 2011 09:09:19 GMT

There are not many students from top JCs in the local uni, maybe other than medicine, dentistry and Law. Many should be having scholarships in overseas uni. Many students in the uni are from TJ, VJ, AJ, ACJC, etc.

Reply to IP failures...has MOE been transparent? on Thu, 15 Dec 2011 08:34:21 GMT

phtthp — Thu, 15 Dec 2011 08:34:21 GMT

whether enter uni via JC ‘A’ level or via poly - both routes are tough, due to intense competition everywhere.