Should DSA be scrapped?

Reply to Should DSA be scrapped? on Sun, 01 Jan 2012 14:00:54 GMT

mum_sugoku — Sun, 01 Jan 2012 14:00:54 GMT

According to Wiki, DSA was introduced 7+ years ago in 2004, which means by now, we should have at least 3 batches of DSAed students who had completed their ‘O’ level, and 1 batch of DSAed IP students completed their ‘A’ level. I believe MOE must’ve been closely monitoring the performance of these past batches of DSAed students to evaluate whether the system is effective/beneficial… If the outcomes (students’ performance, public’s response, etc) persistantly fail to meet MOE’s expectations, MOE will ultimately scrap it, and vice versa.

Reply to Should DSA be scrapped? on Sun, 01 Jan 2012 12:59:05 GMT

Ykiasu — Sun, 01 Jan 2012 12:59:05 GMT

To firefly38 :

Answering to your qn : Both my DS n DD enjoyed the benefits of Dsa (without Gep). Going thru the process makes me understand how disadvantaged some kids are due to lack of parental involvement.

I believe most of us KSP here are truly the ones who prepared the docs and prepared your chilld.

It is just purely my personal opinion that I think it will be a fairer education system to scrap Dsa. I believe this topic was started for discussion therefore U Do not need to question me whether my kid got Dsa .... It's :offtopic:

Reply to Should DSA be scrapped? on Sun, 01 Jan 2012 08:01:05 GMT

ProteX — Sun, 01 Jan 2012 08:01:05 GMT

firefly38:
phankao:
[quote=\"Ykiasu\"]Scrap all DSAs including the Geppers! Be fair to all kids and instill in them that hardwork is needed to get u where u want to go. All these Dsa r driving parents crazy and the kids feeling so helpless (the unfairness of some selections and empty promises given). The school wants us to put them as 1st choice but in the end we feel :stupid:

Preparing for Psle was but now, nearly 3 months thereafter, some of us are still :stupid: :frustrated: :mad:

Back to basics and let your score determine where u go. This will eliminate the unneccessary elitism among these 12 year olds.
But I like DSA, leh. Don't scrap lah.

Ykiasu.. What makes you think that DSA does not involve hardwork? Have you or your DS/DD been through DSA before?[/quote]DSA is just a different acceptance into the school. For PSLE, you study hard and you do well in your academic performance. But some pupils may not do well in exams but excel in competitions, Olympiads, Sports, Aesthetics, which DSA provides as a platform to enter the school.

Plus, to go through DSA is not an easy process, you have to sort out the necessary certs etc. and prepare a portfolio, do well in your P4/5/6 exams (and prepare for an interview.)

Reply to Should DSA be scrapped? on Sat, 31 Dec 2011 19:18:22 GMT

iFirefly — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 19:18:22 GMT

phankao:
Ykiasu:
Scrap all DSAs including the Geppers! Be fair to all kids and instill in them that hardwork is needed to get u where u want to go. All these Dsa r driving parents crazy and the kids feeling so helpless (the unfairness of some selections and empty promises given). The school wants us to put them as 1st choice but in the end we feel :stupid:

Preparing for Psle was but now, nearly 3 months thereafter, some of us are still :stupid: :frustrated: :mad:

Back to basics and let your score determine where u go. This will eliminate the unneccessary elitism among these 12 year olds.
But I like DSA, leh. Don't scrap lah.

Ykiasu.. What makes you think that DSA does not involve hardwork? Have you or your DS/DD been through DSA before?

Reply to Should DSA be scrapped? on Sat, 31 Dec 2011 18:59:19 GMT

iFirefly — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 18:59:19 GMT

Dr.K:
:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
UncleLim:
I think we should scrap PSLE instead.

:goodpost: :celebrate: :hi5:

Reply to Should DSA be scrapped? on Sat, 31 Dec 2011 15:16:45 GMT

phankao — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 15:16:45 GMT

Ykiasu:
Scrap all DSAs including the Geppers! Be fair to all kids and instill in them that hardwork is needed to get u where u want to go. All these Dsa r driving parents crazy and the kids feeling so helpless (the unfairness of some selections and empty promises given). The school wants us to put them as 1st choice but in the end we feel :stupid:

Preparing for Psle was but now, nearly 3 months thereafter, some of us are still :stupid: :frustrated: :mad:

Back to basics and let your score determine where u go. This will eliminate the unneccessary elitism among these 12 year olds.

But I like DSA, leh. Don't scrap lah.

Reply to Should DSA be scrapped? on Sat, 31 Dec 2011 14:50:04 GMT

Ykiasu — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 14:50:04 GMT

Scrap all DSAs including the Geppers! Be fair to all kids and instill in them that hardwork is needed to get u where u want to go. All these Dsa r driving parents crazy and the kids feeling so helpless (the unfairness of some selections and empty promises given). The school wants us to put them as 1st choice but in the end we feel :stupid:

Preparing for Psle was but now, nearly 3 months thereafter, some of us are still :stupid: :frustrated: :mad:

Back to basics and let your score determine where u go. This will eliminate the unneccessary elitism among these 12 year olds.

Reply to Should DSA be scrapped? on Sat, 31 Dec 2011 13:04:27 GMT

MrBin — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 13:04:27 GMT

No real data, this is my estimation (from my point of view, it’s very conservertive). Guess how many students apply for DSA every year, they need go through different tests and interview for each school they apply for. All these need a lot manpower/material involvement , it’s not free. After PSLE, many parents find their children actually can go into better school,then raise many appeal cases (you can refer to the forum), all these need manpower to handle as well.No need to mention how much money and time each family spent to prepare DSA, in the end they still need go for PSLE, what a waste!

Reply to Should DSA be scrapped? on Sat, 31 Dec 2011 12:32:11 GMT

jtoh — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 12:32:11 GMT

MrBin:
My suggestion:Use E(exceptional)SA to replace DSA, it's only open for application after PSLE results released.School should allocate 90~95% seats to students base on PSLE results. 5~10% seats reserved for ESA application which can be divided into several groups. For example:academic competition; sports;music/arts;social contribution(leadership), those groups can have flexible PSLE bottom line. To be fair, the ESA finalist should be public.

Since it's only open for application after PSLE, the number of applicants will dymatically decrease, the manpower can be saved I believe should over 1M dollars per year at least

How do you figure savings of $1m per year? :?

Reply to Should DSA be scrapped? on Sat, 31 Dec 2011 11:20:30 GMT

MrBin — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 11:20:30 GMT

My suggestion:Use E(exceptional)SA to replace DSA, it’s only open for application after PSLE results released.School should allocate 90~95% seats to students base on PSLE results. 5~10% seats reserved for ESA application which can be divided into several groups. For example:academic competition; sports;music/arts;social contribution(leadership), those groups can have flexible PSLE bottom line. To be fair, the ESA finalist should be public.

Since it’s only open for application after PSLE, the number of applicants will dymatically decrease, the manpower can be saved I believe should over 1M dollars per year at least

Reply to Should DSA be scrapped? on Sat, 31 Dec 2011 03:59:34 GMT

MandyMummy — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 03:59:34 GMT

MrBin:
Does Singapore really have DSA, My answer is no.Becasue no matter you get DSA offer or not, you need go for PSLE.In fact for most of the p6 student who get DSA offer, their PSLE score are high enough to let them enter the same school. Even quite a lot students whose PSLE score can let them go into better school, then regret, appeal...why some many students like to apply DSA, the reason behind is same as the people buy insurance. In the end most of people pay much more than they gain, otherwise insurance company can't be so rich. So DSA is only suitable for the students below(exception):

1) One subject is super (maths or science, belong top 30 in the country) but at least one subject is not good enough, go for DSA
2) No subject is super, at least one subject is not good enough, but super in music/arts/sports, belong top 10 in country, go for DSA
3) All subjects are quite balance, belong top 5~10% of the students, can try DSA
For the rest of good students,just focus on PSLE, don't waste your time. I am sure you will get admission to the good school. Please remember why school offer you DSA, because they believe your PSLE score will be high enough.

It seems that schools are taking in less of the category 3 students because they will be getting such students thru PSLE anyway.

Reply to Should DSA be scrapped? on Sat, 31 Dec 2011 03:34:49 GMT

MrBin — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 03:34:49 GMT

If you get DSA offer, you can skip PSLE, then it’s fine.

Reply to Should DSA be scrapped? on Sat, 31 Dec 2011 03:29:49 GMT

phtthp — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 03:29:49 GMT

scrape off DSA - creating so much problem hassle, headache to parents.

totally unnecessary, extra & redundant!

have one common exam PSLE, to catch all ranks of students - is good enough.

going forward - scrape off this DSA stuff!
the logical sequence step of events should be :-

a) based on PSLE results alone - all students are ranked by PSLE results, right down to the minute x number of decimal points. from the top student nation wide Singapore of the entire cohort, all the way down to the last student's score. Centralized computerised system in MOE store & capture all these data of ranking, positioning and students' names.

b) if those schools like RI, etc want to take in good crop of CCA students to bring in glory for CCAs in her school - then conduct a round of interview for shortlisted candidates AFTER the PSLE, but who must meet minimum requirement of scoring at least 260 T score. This then prevent intake of those low Express score - who are way far beneath the benchmark 260.

for exceptional cases:-
if Ri school management decide to take in a pupil who excel in a particular CCA but whose T score is below 260 but within a comfortable, safe zone range (for example: within 5 points max drop range from benchmark 260) which they gut feel that the child should be able to cope with the rigorous demand of RI curriculum, then this is fine! but exceptional offer should be made - AFTER the release of PSLE results.

what's the point of letting your son enter such a highly competitive school like RI via CCA with a low T-score where you know your child can't cope academically struggle, knowing jolly well that majority of boys who come into RI score average around with barest minimum with at least 260 ? in fact, your son will tend to do much better & excel in another school that is less competitive, but exposed to much more golden opportunities readily available to tap & develop your son's potential, in leadership positions plus in other promising areas & aspects - that can groom him to scale greater heights, build higher confidence, and greater positive self esteem.

Reply to Should DSA be scrapped? on Sat, 31 Dec 2011 03:28:26 GMT

MrBin — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 03:28:26 GMT

Does Singapore really have DSA, My answer is no.Becasue no matter you get DSA offer or not, you need go for PSLE.In fact for most of the p6 student who get DSA offer, their PSLE score are high enough to let them enter the same school. Even quite a lot students whose PSLE score can let them go into better school, then regret, appeal…why so many students like to apply DSA, the reason behind is same as the people buy insurance. In the end most of people pay much more than they gain, otherwise insurance company can’t be so rich. So DSA is only suitable for the students below(exception):

1) One subject is super (maths or science, belong top 30 in the country) but at least one subject is not good enough, go for DSA
2) No subject is super, at least one subject is not good enough, but super in music/arts/sports, belong top 10 in country, go for DSA
3) All subjects are quite balance, belong top 5~10% of the students, can try DSA
For the rest of good students,just focus on PSLE, don’t waste your time. I am sure you will get admission to the good school. Please remember why school offer you DSA, because they believe your PSLE score will be high enough.

Reply to Should DSA be scrapped? on Fri, 30 Dec 2011 16:59:04 GMT

Dr.050025K — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 16:59:04 GMT

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

UncleLim:
I think we should scrap PSLE instead.

Reply to Should DSA be scrapped? on Tue, 20 Dec 2011 05:00:45 GMT

Chenonceau — Tue, 20 Dec 2011 05:00:45 GMT

ksi:

The other point I like to highlight is when such talents bring glory to the school they also bring glory to themselves in their portfolio, so there is definitely a benefit to the children when they invest time in exceling in the CCA. I see mutual benefits in this even though it may be deemed as transactional.

When it is transactional, there should be mutual benefit. Otherwise, how to transact? Still, there is something missing when schools transact more than they care for the general well being of each child AND make it seem like they're doing the child a kind favour.

It is a transaction. No more.

In my DD's year 3 DSA children were MADE to leave. No remedial action. Just go. One set of parents went to great lengths to keep their child in the school. Volunteered extensively. Sat on parent volunteer board. From one week to another, parents disappeared. But maybe that has changed since then. It was many many years ago.

To be fair to MOE too, the school has since undergone a change in Principal. The new Principal made it VERY clear that such training hours were unacceptable. Perhaps my DD's experience was a one off. Still, it doesn't change the fact that the DSA is a transaction, and like in any transaction, ya gotta watch your own bottomline and make sure you're not short changed. No one's gonna care for your kid if you don't.

Things got so bad that at one point, I told someone... I want my DD to reach her potential, not die for that Gold. I do have high standards. I push my children as far as they can go. But I know my kids, and they're not geniuses and if I see that pushing even further will result in emotional and physical damage, I will draw a firm line there and you will have to step over my dead body to get at my kids.

Reply to Should DSA be scrapped? on Tue, 20 Dec 2011 01:51:10 GMT

corneyAmber — Tue, 20 Dec 2011 01:51:10 GMT

MandyMummy:
ksi:
[quote=\"MandyMummy\"]
Singapore school students cannot take GCE exams administered by SEAB as private candidates. However, some national sports representatives in IP may choose to study and train overseas so usually they will take the IGCSE for entrance to US uni. Some well-known national swimmers have done that.
This is good information indeed. However, I think the above posts may be suggesting that the students are asked to leave the school and take as private candidates. If they drop out from school, I believe they can right? So this is something MOE can help to prevent if it is indeed happening.

Usually when these students cannot make the promotion criteria, they are usually asked to repeat. However, some of them may not want to repeat, so they choose to 'transfer' out. When they are no longer school candidates, they can then take GCE level exam as private candidates. I don't think MOE can do anything, because the school has offered the student a chance to repeat which is according to the guidelines.[/quote]Thanks for sharing again MandyMummy. Like what coast has mentioned, if the numbers of children not performing well academically warrant attention, perhaps it is worthwhile for MOE to look at pro-active guidelines instead of corrective guidelines. Asking a child to repeat is after-things-go-wrong policy. If there is a clear guideline given that such children should be given additional x hours of academic support to bridge the gap of missed lessons, perhaps that would help ease out the unhappiness of contributing and then falling short of academic performance. If there are no resources to do that in school, outsourcing this to a tuition centre can be justified to MOE as they are talents who bring glory to the school or even a co-share model for the tuition fees with parents would be appreciated I believe.

The other point I like to highlight is when such talents bring glory to the school they also bring glory to themselves in their portfolio, so there is definitely a benefit to the children when they invest time in exceling in the CCA. I see mutual benefits in this even though it may be deemed as transactional.

Reply to Should DSA be scrapped? on Mon, 19 Dec 2011 21:09:35 GMT

Chenonceau — Mon, 19 Dec 2011 21:09:35 GMT

coast:
Chenonceau:

From my own experience, children of 13 and 14 were made to miss TWO hours of classes everyday to train for 1 month before the competition. After the competition, they had to train everyday after school till 8pm. On Saturdays and Sundays, training was from 9am to 7pm. One child cried because she had not time to study. Poor child's parents dared not intervene. My DD cried too. I asked her to choose (because I was afraid of the Principal), saying that it was ok if she failed an exam or too. She chose to study. In the end, my husband kicked my butt and made me stand up for my DD.

After getting gold for the school the poor child who cried failed all her exams and she was asked to leave the school. Now, if someone had cared enough, or had been wise enough to bring balance back between training and study, this child would not have failed. The incident was traumatic for the child and did nothing for her self-esteem. DSA is a double-edged sword. Under the much more formalized DSA, you OWE it to the school to bring in that gold. It's a transaction. My DD signed a contract stating that she would train the hours necessary and stay with the CCA. This did not exist in the time when we were students.

It is good though... that they will be reviewing how schools are being appraised.
Hi Chenonceau,

How close are those intensive training to the exams? What is the purpose of training so hard AFTER the competition?

Did your DD's contract state the number of training hours in the contract? Or just a generic term \"necessary hours\"?

It is really sad to hear about such an incident (the poor student being asked to leave). MOE can and ought to do something to prevent such things from happening. The training hours do not sound right even for competition preparation (unless it's during school holidays) and I do not think MOE supports skipping some lessons everyday for a month! I am really surprised that the school can endorse such a training schedule.

I am not clear about your last sentence \"It is good though... that they will be reviewing how schools are being appraised.\". Isn't academic success a major kpi for schools? If it is indeed so and yet the school can go ahead with training hours that are clearly detrimental to study (and hence affecting the academic results), why would a review help?

On a side note, I would think that most competitions are not near to exams so there are time for students to study for their exams after the competitions? I also overheard a top sec school's students mention about \"CCA stand down\" though I am not sure how many weeks before the exams.

My incident happened many years ago. There may well be some guidelines now. There was a charity drive 1 week after competitions which required the children's CCA skills. The CCA hours after exams were set down by the Teacher and 2 parent volunteers. The Principal stepped in to make these more reasonable.

No... the contract did not state hours of training. As for academic KPIs, CCA awards are also very important. Schools must deliver holistically on all the measurables. Hence, the school is very clear that the REASON these DSA kids are in the school is because of their talent. They don't expect these children to do well academically. Kids are part of the schools resource deployment. Deploy the right resources to the right tasks and performance will be good.

But let's cut past all these details.

I just wanted to clearly make the point that schools don't do DSA for purely altruistic motives. It has nothing to do with not wanting to deprive talented individuals. The school can get a lot out of a CCA winner... and that is the major reason why they take the kids.

I don't think there is anything wrong with DSA. The schools want a diversity of talent. The kids want to do well. The kids can be stretched (as long as parents are vigilant and are aware of where the schools are coming from, it should be fine because you need to make sure you bring a counter balance when your kid's welfare is at stake). I just did not like the sugar coating on the words that make the DSA sound like a favour to students. It is a transaction, and not a favour the school does to us and our children.

Reply to Should DSA be scrapped? on Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:10:01 GMT

coast — Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:10:01 GMT

MandyMummy:
ksi:
[quote=\"MandyMummy\"]
Singapore school students cannot take GCE exams administered by SEAB as private candidates. However, some national sports representatives in IP may choose to study and train overseas so usually they will take the IGCSE for entrance to US uni. Some well-known national swimmers have done that.
This is good information indeed. However, I think the above posts may be suggesting that the students are asked to leave the school and take as private candidates. If they drop out from school, I believe they can right? So this is something MOE can help to prevent if it is indeed happening.

Reply to Should DSA be scrapped? on Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:56:37 GMT

coast — Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:56:37 GMT

Chenonceau:

From my own experience, children of 13 and 14 were made to miss TWO hours of classes everyday to train for 1 month before the competition. After the competition, they had to train everyday after school till 8pm. On Saturdays and Sundays, training was from 9am to 7pm. One child cried because she had not time to study. Poor child's parents dared not intervene. My DD cried too. I asked her to choose (because I was afraid of the Principal), saying that it was ok if she failed an exam or too. She chose to study. In the end, my husband kicked my butt and made me stand up for my DD.

After getting gold for the school the poor child who cried failed all her exams and she was asked to leave the school. Now, if someone had cared enough, or had been wise enough to bring balance back between training and study, this child would not have failed. The incident was traumatic for the child and did nothing for her self-esteem. DSA is a double-edged sword. Under the much more formalized DSA, you OWE it to the school to bring in that gold. It's a transaction. My DD signed a contract stating that she would train the hours necessary and stay with the CCA. This did not exist in the time when we were students.

It is good though... that they will be reviewing how schools are being appraised.

Hi Chenonceau,

How close are those intensive training to the exams? What is the purpose of training so hard AFTER the competition?

Did your DD's contract state the number of training hours in the contract? Or just a generic term \"necessary hours\"?

It is really sad to hear about such an incident (the poor student being asked to leave). MOE can and ought to do something to prevent such things from happening. The training hours do not sound right even for competition preparation (unless it's during school holidays) and I do not think MOE supports skipping some lessons everyday for a month! I am really surprised that the school can endorse such a training schedule.

I am not clear about your last sentence \"It is good though... that they will be reviewing how schools are being appraised.\". Isn't academic success a major kpi for schools? If it is indeed so and yet the school can go ahead with training hours that are clearly detrimental to study (and hence affecting the academic results), why would a review help?

On a side note, I would think that most competitions are not near to exams so there are time for students to study for their exams after the competitions? I also overheard a top sec school's students mention about \"CCA stand down\" though I am not sure how many weeks before the exams.

Reply to Should DSA be scrapped? on Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:27:57 GMT

MandyMummy — Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:27:57 GMT

ksi:
MandyMummy:
[quote=\"ksi\"]
This is something probably MOE can play the referee and not allow this to happen in the school with its set of written guidelines to the Principals. The required action would be to give more academic support for the child to perform satisfactorily academically. A partnership should be win-win.
Singapore school students cannot take GCE exams administered by SEAB as private candidates. However, some national sports representatives in IP may choose to study and train overseas so usually they will take the IGCSE for entrance to US uni. Some well-known national swimmers have done that.

This is good information indeed. However, I think the above posts may be suggesting that the students are asked to leave the school and take as private candidates. If they drop out from school, I believe they can right? So this is something MOE can help to prevent if it is indeed happening.[/quote]Usually when these students cannot make the promotion criteria, they are usually asked to repeat. However, some of them may not want to repeat, so they choose to 'transfer' out. When they are no longer school candidates, they can then take GCE level exam as private candidates. I don't think MOE can do anything, because the school has offered the student a chance to repeat which is according to the guidelines.

Reply to Should DSA be scrapped? on Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:17:01 GMT

corneyAmber — Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:17:01 GMT

MandyMummy:
ksi:
[quote=\"MrsSeah\"]

I heard of this rumour before. If it is really true, than it is REALLY bad. After making use of the student to win all the award for them for 4 years, than they KICK them out. :rant:
This is something probably MOE can play the referee and not allow this to happen in the school with its set of written guidelines to the Principals. The required action would be to give more academic support for the child to perform satisfactorily academically. A partnership should be win-win.

Singapore school students cannot take GCE exams administered by SEAB as private candidates. However, some national sports representatives in IP may choose to study and train overseas so usually they will take the IGCSE for entrance to US uni. Some well-known national swimmers have done that.[/quote]This is good information indeed. However, I think the above posts may be suggesting that the students are asked to leave the school and take as private candidates. If they drop out from school, I believe they can right? So this is something MOE can help to prevent if it is indeed happening.

Reply to Should DSA be scrapped? on Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:52:05 GMT

MandyMummy — Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:52:05 GMT

ksi:
MrsSeah:
[quote=\"Dr.K\"]

I heard someone say those selected by sports CCA in one top school are asked to sit for their exams as private candidates.
I heard of this rumour before. If it is really true, than it is REALLY bad. After making use of the student to win all the award for them for 4 years, than they KICK them out. :rant:

This is something probably MOE can play the referee and not allow this to happen in the school with its set of written guidelines to the Principals. The required action would be to give more academic support for the child to perform satisfactorily academically. A partnership should be win-win.[/quote]Singapore school students cannot take GCE exams administered by SEAB as private candidates. However, some national sports representatives in IP may choose to study and train overseas so usually they will take the IGCSE for entrance to US uni. Some well-known national swimmers have done that.

Reply to Should DSA be scrapped? on Mon, 19 Dec 2011 06:56:22 GMT

corneyAmber — Mon, 19 Dec 2011 06:56:22 GMT

MrsSeah:
Dr.K:

I heard someone say those selected by sports CCA in one top school are asked to sit for their exams as private candidates.
I heard of this rumour before. If it is really true, than it is REALLY bad. After making use of the student to win all the award for them for 4 years, than they KICK them out. :rant: