Advice Needed Urgently! Withdraw from SAP Sec School !

Reply to Advice Needed Urgently! Withdraw from SAP Sec School ! on Wed, 08 Feb 2012 05:26:15 GMT

Bbee — Wed, 08 Feb 2012 05:26:15 GMT

Littlefly:
Bbee: Absolutely agree with you on this! It takes a lot of drive, commitment from the parents too. Its not easy on my brother and sil to handle a child who obviously outwit, outreason and outtalk both of them and highly sensitive. Actually I don't know where to start too but i will try to read up and hopefully dont ask silly questions myself. Haha.

Bbee:
2ppaamm's kids are lucky to have such a great mum who is so resourceful and determine to help her kids. Am sure it was a long, hard search/battle before she found her solutions. Most parents of such kids are clueless. I also understand that not all have the resources.

There are no silly questions, Littlefly. If we don't ask, we will never know.
Your nephew is fortunate to have a great aunt who goes out of her way to find help for him. There's always a reason behind why kids are behaving the way they do. I hope some leads will come in soon, in whatever form, whether it's from this Forum or anywhere else. :idea:

Reply to Advice Needed Urgently! Withdraw from SAP Sec School ! on Wed, 08 Feb 2012 02:29:06 GMT

Littlefly — Wed, 08 Feb 2012 02:29:06 GMT

Bbee: Absolutely agree with you on this! It takes a lot of drive, commitment from the parents too. Its not easy on my brother and sil to handle a child who obviously outwit, outreason and outtalk both of them and highly sensitive. Actually I don't know where to start too but i will try to read up and hopefully dont ask silly questions myself. Haha.

Bbee:
2ppaamm's kids are lucky to have such a great mum who is so resourceful and determine to help her kids. Am sure it was a long, hard search/battle before she found her solutions. Most parents of such kids are clueless. I also understand that not all have the resources.

Reply to Advice Needed Urgently! Withdraw from SAP Sec School ! on Tue, 07 Feb 2012 10:01:23 GMT

Bbee — Tue, 07 Feb 2012 10:01:23 GMT

I really feel for the boy, I don’t understand what he is going through but am sure he is very frustrated and angry to behave the way he is.

Hopefully you will be able to get some leads or at least advice on where to start etc.

2ppaamm’s kids are lucky to have such a great mum who is so resourceful and determine to help her kids. Am sure it was a long, hard search/battle before she found her solutions. Most parents of such kids are clueless. I also understand that not all have the resources.
I really hope you get some leads soon on how to go about this. All the best and take care.

Reply to Advice Needed Urgently! Withdraw from SAP Sec School ! on Tue, 07 Feb 2012 09:29:41 GMT

Littlefly — Tue, 07 Feb 2012 09:29:41 GMT

Snow crystal: Thanks for your kind words.

Mdm Koh: haha, I don’t disagree with you. My kids are still little and how they will turn out in future, I can’t foresee but I am a believer of tough love.

Mrs Seah: Honestly I don’t know if they are suitable or if my nephew would come up with funny suggestions (like quit study etc). My bro and SIL are just fire-fighting crisis over crisis to meet demands from my nephew.
Fully agree with you ‘It is easy to said he want home school and want to quit school and leave the rest of the thing for other to worry and plan for him.’

Reply to Advice Needed Urgently! Withdraw from SAP Sec School ! on Tue, 07 Feb 2012 09:13:57 GMT

Littlefly — Tue, 07 Feb 2012 09:13:57 GMT

2ppaamm:
Get your nephew to seek help himself. It is always better that way.

2ppaamm, can you message me your email so i can pass to my brother and get my nephew (or brother) to contact you directly ? Thanks.

Reply to Advice Needed Urgently! Withdraw from SAP Sec School ! on Tue, 07 Feb 2012 07:19:59 GMT

MrsSeah — Tue, 07 Feb 2012 07:19:59 GMT

2ppaamm:
Littlefly:
Just want to rant. So pissed off with my brother. I smsed him the email addresses i received so far to reach out to mummies experienced in homeschooling and he asked me to write on his behalf. I told him to do it himself as he is the parent and he said his English is poor (he is chinese educated). Told him to ask my nephew to go email himself and he said my nephew won't do it. Then in the end, he said he will draft the requests for me to vet before sending over. I told him i cannot be the middle person (redirecting email traffic) forever, he has to step up.

Maybe I am also impatient with him coz my lil one is feeling under the weather..:(
Get your nephew to seek help himself. It is always better that way.

I agreed.

Think out of the box - Since your nephew want to homeschool himself. Than he has to list down how is he going to plan for his 4 years in secondary at home. How is he going to work this out. Eg. What is his schedule, what subject he is going to take for his o'level. How is he going to do his exam as a homeschooler. Since he is good in sourcing information and he knew can be homeschool than ask him draft out his plan for his parent.

It is easy to said he want home school and want to quit school and leave the rest of the thing for other to worry and plan for him.

If he can give a good plan out of it and sure homeschooling is good for him. Than as a parent, they can than support him.

I feel maybe you should push the ball to him and tell him to come out a good plan before they agreed to let him quit.

Reply to Advice Needed Urgently! Withdraw from SAP Sec School ! on Tue, 07 Feb 2012 07:10:15 GMT

MrsSeah — Tue, 07 Feb 2012 07:10:15 GMT

I have no experience in home schooling. But from the way you wrote, do you think your brother and your nephew is suitable for home schooling?

I feel in order to home school the kids, parents and kids commitment is very important. They must be well organise of what to do and good time planning for the day. If not, in the end, all may just lay around the house doing nothing. Isn't that become worst? :roll:

Both your brother and nephew don't want to take the 1st step to source the information and expect you to do everything for them. How sure are they that they are able to commit to daily work that required them to go thru for home schooling?

Than is my own point of view. I may not be right. :roll:

Reply to Advice Needed Urgently! Withdraw from SAP Sec School ! on Tue, 07 Feb 2012 06:16:08 GMT

2ppaamm — Tue, 07 Feb 2012 06:16:08 GMT

Littlefly:
Just want to rant. So pissed off with my brother. I smsed him the email addresses i received so far to reach out to mummies experienced in homeschooling and he asked me to write on his behalf. I told him to do it himself as he is the parent and he said his English is poor (he is chinese educated). Told him to ask my nephew to go email himself and he said my nephew won't do it. Then in the end, he said he will draft the requests for me to vet before sending over. I told him i cannot be the middle person (redirecting email traffic) forever, he has to step up.

Maybe I am also impatient with him coz my lil one is feeling under the weather..:(

Get your nephew to seek help himself. It is always better that way.

Reply to Advice Needed Urgently! Withdraw from SAP Sec School ! on Tue, 07 Feb 2012 05:03:40 GMT

Mdm Koh — Tue, 07 Feb 2012 05:03:40 GMT

Littlefly:
My brother (a buddhist) has said his son is not born to be kind. He is very selfish and not capable of showing any compassion. I do not know my nephew well enough to make any observations. He seemed to be living in his own world (plus internet plus his parents only).

Every child is born with a clean slate. Your nephew is the way he is now because of parental indulgence.

Reply to Advice Needed Urgently! Withdraw from SAP Sec School ! on Tue, 07 Feb 2012 03:53:37 GMT

Snow Crystal — Tue, 07 Feb 2012 03:53:37 GMT

Littlefly:

Maybe I am also impatient with him coz my lil one is feeling under the weather..:(

You are a great sibling to be so concerned. I would think homeschooling requires dedicated parents and your bro and SIL don't seem suitable if they can't even take the initiative to touch base with the homeschoolers. I see parents like 2ppaamm are extremely encouraging, motivating and dedicated parents who have initiative to sail the unchartered seas (at least local context wise). Perhaps your brother or you can share with your nephew on the uni credits system and if your nephew is interested, he can explore that route all by himself with the material, forms etc. But funding for uni when he qualifies will be a problem. Ask your brother to talk to school on Chen's suggestion to self study then go school exams only. He sounds like very independent so he may be able to self study all by himself. Any questions email the teachers. At least give him a life buoy. The nephew seems to be at his wits end *poor boy* so please ask your brother to look at the situation from the angle of his son and not from society. On the other hand, if his only main problem is anxiety over answering questions, can't special arrangements be made with the SAP school to request that questions not to be directed at him. He seems to be a bright independent boy - don't write him off juz because he's special and different. It's interesting that the same boy may be labelled as trouble maker or a Thomas Edison, depending on the parents' perspective.

Reply to Advice Needed Urgently! Withdraw from SAP Sec School ! on Tue, 07 Feb 2012 03:21:37 GMT

Littlefly — Tue, 07 Feb 2012 03:21:37 GMT

Just want to rant. So pissed off with my brother. I smsed him the email addresses i received so far to reach out to mummies experienced in homeschooling and he asked me to write on his behalf. I told him to do it himself as he is the parent and he said his English is poor (he is chinese educated). Told him to ask my nephew to go email himself and he said my nephew won't do it. Then in the end, he said he will draft the requests for me to vet before sending over. I told him i cannot be the middle person (redirecting email traffic) forever, he has to step up.

Maybe I am also impatient with him coz my lil one is feeling under the weather..:(

Reply to Advice Needed Urgently! Withdraw from SAP Sec School ! on Tue, 07 Feb 2012 02:03:39 GMT

Littlefly — Tue, 07 Feb 2012 02:03:39 GMT

Chenonceau, that’s very kind of you to infer my nephew could be a genius but all we hope is he won’t commit sucide, harm his parents or other innocent parties in any way. My brother (a buddhist) has said his son is not born to be kind. He is very selfish and not capable of showing any compassion. I do not know my nephew well enough to make any observations. He seemed to be living in his own world (plus internet plus his parents only).

Reply to Advice Needed Urgently! Withdraw from SAP Sec School ! on Mon, 06 Feb 2012 08:47:52 GMT

Chenonceau — Mon, 06 Feb 2012 08:47:52 GMT

Littlefly:

4. My nephew greatest interests are in computer related stuff. He downloads softwares, builds his own web page, shoot his own you-tube video, etc.

Steve Jobs was a bum too. It seems that Jobs also was not a nice person up close and personal. When God gives a mother (and father) a special (weird) child, he anoints 2 saints... and such kids hate the rest of the world because they are frustrated at not being understood. Such children need prayer. Lots 'cos very often they go (in their minds) where we cannot go (and their genius lies in going where no one has ever been). Steve Jobs lead the whole WORLD into experiences that began first in HIS head.

http://petunialee.blogspot.com/2009/09/where-least-amongst-us-is-great.html

Reply to Advice Needed Urgently! Withdraw from SAP Sec School ! on Mon, 06 Feb 2012 08:14:47 GMT

Littlefly — Mon, 06 Feb 2012 08:14:47 GMT

Thank you all. Foremost, I am very touched and warmed by your replies! I phoned my bro to tell him there’s hope the moment i saw the replies received here. He told me my nephew was crying the other day when he adamantly refused to return to school when he made the suicide threat. And all this while, I thought my nephew made it in an act of wilfulness… i could be so wrong…

Chenonceau
Yes, its a great idea to ask if the Prinicpal allows him to take the exams. My bro explored this with his son too but he thought very ‘paiseh’ to go back and take the exams…

P/s: LOL-ing over your post "…this fellow is a surgeon…Boy am I sad that I didn’t try to date him…"

I really hope things will improve once the stressors are removed. I also hope my bro and SIL will learn how to manage him better as well and not allow him to abuse them physically. My brother said my nephew is very self-centered and not even kind at heart. Its appalling to hear that. I wonder if its the way he’s brought up by over-indulgent parents eager to please him or its inborn?

Chamonix
Thanks for the PM. My bro is quite concerned about planning the timetable for his son, etc. He feels my nephew could slack after a while.

2ppaamm
So far none but in Primary, he has completed swimming lessons before with a private instructor who volunteered his services after witnessing my nephew’s fear/anxiety at the pool.

Yes yes. He’s afraid to be called out in class. He told my brother he kept praying and praying hard not to be called out until his mind goes blank.

Problem
1. Are you leaving Singapore for good? Will you continue to visit this forum? Actually I felt my SIL needs counselling herself on how to handle her child. I think she’s overly protective at times.

2. University funding - KIV this.

3. My brother said he’s lazy. So 2-3hr program will suit him.

4. My nephew greatest interests are in computer related stuff. He downloads softwares, builds his own web page, shoot his own you-tube video, etc.

NS - this would be a tough one.

Parenting style
NO doubt about it being too soft. All of us think this has resulted in his behavior but his parents kept insisting he is a ‘special’ boy. My bro is quite soft and gentle.

The counselor you mentioned, is he/she still available? does it costs a bomb?

Reply to Advice Needed Urgently! Withdraw from SAP Sec School ! on Sat, 04 Feb 2012 09:33:17 GMT

Bbee — Sat, 04 Feb 2012 09:33:17 GMT

kitty2:
chamonix:
[quote=\"Littlefly\"]

Any parents here also do home-schooling for your kids ?
How do you do it?
Any providers who specializes in IT yet offer a formal secondary education.
Hi Littlefly,

I have PMed you the contact of this lady who is homeschooling her teenage daughter. I believe the group of secondary school homeschoolers in Singapore is still active. Like 2ppaamm, some are also taking the credit accumulation path. Not long ago, someone wrote about using AP & SAT to gain admission into local universities. You can check with the lady for more information (such as social interaction, curriculum etc) on homeschooling secondary school kids.

All the best.

Hi,

Can you please PM me too? :thankyou:[/quote]Would appreciate if you could PM me too. Many thanks in advance.

Reply to Advice Needed Urgently! Withdraw from SAP Sec School ! on Sat, 04 Feb 2012 09:14:44 GMT

Mdm Koh — Sat, 04 Feb 2012 09:14:44 GMT

Although I believe in the benefits of home-schooling, I don’t think the boy should be home-schooled just so that he can avoid interacting with others. I think that would make him even more alienated from society.

I’d try to find out more about the underlying cause of his behaviour. Why doesn’t he like to answer questions in class? Is he afraid of getting the answers wrong? Do his current classmates tease him a lot?

If he dislikes his current school, perhaps a transfer could help him?

I think, above all, this child needs to be taught coping skills. His parents need to be very patient and firm.

Reply to Advice Needed Urgently! Withdraw from SAP Sec School ! on Sat, 04 Feb 2012 07:32:27 GMT

2ppaamm — Sat, 04 Feb 2012 07:32:27 GMT

Chenonceau:
2ppaamm:
[quote=\"Chenonceau\"]
Schools motivate kids by terrorising them. Take it from a researcher in the field of human motivation that THAT is the best way to kill drive.
Motivating? I cannot agree that they are motivating the kids. And I agree fully they use terror. Real terror. Can you imagine how it is like for a 7 year old in P1? My son (DS3) shit in his pants out of fear literally, and they just hosed him down, and called me in.

Oh dear... shit in his pants... oh dear... and the Teacher did not feel remorse? It would break my heart if I ever caused a little boy to shit in his pants.[/quote]I think the teacher did not even know she caused this. Some kids are just more timid, though many of them put up a different front. Some kids are fearful of schools. Teachers should be more well-trained. They do not know how much anxiety they can cause children. Just if they know how they have affected some small kids' lives.

Reply to Advice Needed Urgently! Withdraw from SAP Sec School ! on Sat, 04 Feb 2012 01:40:33 GMT

kitty2 — Sat, 04 Feb 2012 01:40:33 GMT

chamonix:
Littlefly:

Any parents here also do home-schooling for your kids ?
How do you do it?
Any providers who specializes in IT yet offer a formal secondary education.
Hi Littlefly,

I have PMed you the contact of this lady who is homeschooling her teenage daughter. I believe the group of secondary school homeschoolers in Singapore is still active. Like 2ppaamm, some are also taking the credit accumulation path. Not long ago, someone wrote about using AP & SAT to gain admission into local universities. You can check with the lady for more information (such as social interaction, curriculum etc) on homeschooling secondary school kids.

All the best.

Hi,

Can you please PM me too? :thankyou:

Reply to Advice Needed Urgently! Withdraw from SAP Sec School ! on Fri, 03 Feb 2012 23:48:33 GMT

Chenonceau — Fri, 03 Feb 2012 23:48:33 GMT

2ppaamm:
Chenonceau:

Schools motivate kids by terrorising them. Take it from a researcher in the field of human motivation that THAT is the best way to kill drive.
Motivating? I cannot agree that they are motivating the kids. And I agree fully they use terror. Real terror. Can you imagine how it is like for a 7 year old in P1? My son (DS3) shit in his pants out of fear literally, and they just hosed him down, and called me in.

Oh dear... shit in his pants... oh dear... and the Teacher did not feel remorse? It would break my heart if I ever caused a little boy to shit in his pants.

Reply to Advice Needed Urgently! Withdraw from SAP Sec School ! on Fri, 03 Feb 2012 23:42:57 GMT

2ppaamm — Fri, 03 Feb 2012 23:42:57 GMT

Chenonceau:

Schools motivate kids by terrorising them. Take it from a researcher in the field of human motivation that THAT is the best way to kill drive.

Motivating? I cannot agree that they are motivating the kids. And I agree fully they use terror. Real terror. Can you imagine how it is like for a 7 year old in P1? My son (DS3) shit in his pants out of fear literally, and they just hosed him down, and called me in.

Some kids are just more timid and their methods just won't work anymore. But they will thrive if we would just show patience and love. We are a first world country, let's see some first world way of treatment of kids in school. And, boys have it worse than girls, almost all the time. Girls are social animals by nature and often darlings.

Reply to Advice Needed Urgently! Withdraw from SAP Sec School ! on Fri, 03 Feb 2012 23:36:20 GMT

Chenonceau — Fri, 03 Feb 2012 23:36:20 GMT

Emotionally, things might improve once the stressors are removed?

If the parents stop fighting with him and try to understand and support him, maybe things will improve?

He seems very lonely.

My son would probably end up like that if I did not actively buffer him. Socially and emotionally DS is nothing like his sister. I had to do quite a lot of buffering... even down to messing with the mental models of his Teacher (who initially told me he was lazy, arrogant and had a bad attitude). I actually developed a conscious strategy to change what she thought, without ever trying to change my son. Being a psychologist, I knew exactly what to do.

Since I've never accelerated DS at all, I'm now stuck with a massive syllabus to get through in these 2 years. Those who've been accelerated via enrichment through the years don't have a problem I think. To temper the stress and speed up learning (because there was so much to cover), I homeschooled him for 10 weeks last year.

After reading 2ppaamm's sharing and the sharing of another Mommy who left a note on my blog, I deeply regret refusing to provide structured acceleration in his early primary years. Even though he isn't gifted, I think he could have accelerated too if I had put in the effort (and had less faith in MOE). After all, he did complete the whole P5 Math syllabus in one week when homeschooling last year... and he did bring his Chinese up by 2 years over the period of 1.5 months. Though it required 8 hours of sustained work a day, it was very doable. If I wasn't capped by the syllabus, he would have moved even faster in some niche areas.

Socially and emotionally, the homeschool benefited him too. After all, it isn't as if the system in school is any good at turning out people with internal drive. All these obedient people (managed by fear and scoldings) of course have no initiative of their own. My son actively directs his own learning at home. We discuss process and content. He wants to do well at PSLE... and has the drive for it.

Schools motivate kids by terrorising them with failure. Take it from a researcher in the field of human motivation that THAT is the best way to kill drive.

Reply to Advice Needed Urgently! Withdraw from SAP Sec School ! on Fri, 03 Feb 2012 23:13:07 GMT

2ppaamm — Fri, 03 Feb 2012 23:13:07 GMT

Littlefly, I looked at what you said about your nephew and yes, I do have a syllabus for him, and he probably can make it to the university in 2 years given his ability. I make this guess based on what you have written on this thread.

But, I have also made a few assumptions:
1. That he is motivated enough to get the syllabus done.
2. That he is an independent learner and will finish the course, there are 23 subjects altogether.
3. That he is teachable, and not cynical.

I am also worried about his social and emotional status:
1. Can he do sports or arts? He must learn to take instructions from someone outside the family. Perhaps not school teachers, but someone who is reasonable and responsible. What are his interests? Sports, arts, robotics etc etc. He must find a passion, or for some, many passions.
2. I can fully understand his situation in class. I think he is having massive anxiety problems (to be afraid to be called out in class) and is too smart to want to see any more counselors. To these children, the anxiety and fear is very real, and we should never downplay this. And yes, with such anxiety, it is difficult for him to go to school. There are many incidents the kid just crumble and never joins the school system again.
3. Looks to me that he is a good candidate for Autodidacticism. He is a good self-learner. If we all focus on his positive side rather than his negatives, perhaps he would open up and let us into his world.

Problem
1. I'm leaving Singapore in a month and I'm not sure if I can help him, if I were to give him the syllabus, and I'm not here to monitor him, can his mother do a good job? I'm worried for the SAHM, because it is not easy to deal with a kid like this. If he stays home all the time, she is endangered mentally, because he doesn't sound easy to deal with.

2. When he is done with all his credentials and ready for university, who is going to fund his university, and who is going to put him to university?

3. Singapore universities will not take him because he will only be 14 or 15. They have changed the policies and take in only 18 years old. DS1 was lucky there was no such policy a few years back, my other kids had to go overseas. Where does his parents want to send him then? I am not confident I can get him a overseas scholarship. And for a boy, it is very difficult to get a scholarship before he finishes NS. And no, I don't believe in holding a child back, because my program only takes 2-3 hours a day to homeschool, if we slow him down, he will have too much free time, and to me, that means idling around too much. Not good for a young inquiring mind.

4. Next, what are his interests? Let's say we finish his high school and he wants to go to the university. What does he want to study? Who will help him with planning his life, if he refuses to open up? Can his parents guide him on a career path?

NS
1. How are we going to handle NS here? Who is going to prepare him for NS? The officers are not going to take those rubbish from him. He can escape from school, but he cannot escape from NS.

2. Practicality of NS. When should he enlist? After university? (Actually, I can also find him a reputable homeschool university, but he still has to go overseas for a summer or two for residency) However, I am worried that while I can help with the academic side, he might not be totally prepared for the NS emotionally.

One of my kids have massive anxiety problems as well, and it was caused by traumas from school. Because of the lack of understanding, this anxiety soon caused a depression. However, my son is not very sociable but loves friends. He has a few very good friends though he cannot make friends easily. His few friends remain as friends like forever. I think this is the part your nephew needs. You mentioned he has no friends?

I also put my son in many sports. He gets along very well with his coaches and they understand him very well. They will make him go beyond his limits, and lately, as he sees his muscles growing and fats melting (haha), he is getting more motivated. I think this is important. You need kids to be able to take instructions from someone outside the family, might be just one or two people, but someone else. I also like that he learns to conquer fear and anxiety, and realize things are not as fearful as he thinks. When he is dead tired, his coach ask him to go for another round. He is doing sports competitively, and trains 4 times a week now. Give your nephew little challenges everyday, (go speak to stranger, make a new friend in a new place) etc. This will make him braver. This was how we started his recovery, and my son is one year younger than your nephew.

All those abuse on other people? I venture to guess that it is his way of protecting himself. Believe it or not. I went through this as well, for three years, often when he is cornered, he will 'protect' himself. I think the boy is suffering trauma. He does not know how else to defend himself. If everyone stops pointing fingers at him and criticize him, his violence will end. My method was to give him no chance to exercise this violence. His parents? I think the parenting style is a bit too soft, and there is a basic power struggle. (I'm a bit too critical here, sorry...)

I am not sure of your nephew, but sometimes, he just needs a boost of self-esteem. If you cannot get him to see a counselor, how about telling him that he will be seeing someone who will advise him how to be a genius? It worked for my son. And that was the turning point. And, that person is really a genius, though he also does therapies! (Don't ever lie to any child, they will not trust you any more one day.)

I spent a lot on my son on the recovery road (tens and tens of thousand). The education system is a scary one for a very bright but afraid child, and it took me years to reverse the harm caused. But I think we're done with the reversal, found a sweet spot and we've moved on.

Hope this helps, and let me know if you need anything from me.

Reply to Advice Needed Urgently! Withdraw from SAP Sec School ! on Fri, 03 Feb 2012 20:54:40 GMT

metz — Fri, 03 Feb 2012 20:54:40 GMT

Littlefly:

Any parents here also do home-schooling for your kids ?
How do you do it?
Any providers who specializes in IT yet offer a formal secondary education.

Hi Littlefly,

I have PMed you the contact of this lady who is homeschooling her teenage daughter. I believe the group of secondary school homeschoolers in Singapore is still active. Like 2ppaamm, some are also taking the credit accumulation path. Not long ago, someone wrote about using AP & SAT to gain admission into local universities. You can check with the lady for more information (such as social interaction, curriculum etc) on homeschooling secondary school kids.

All the best.

Reply to Advice Needed Urgently! Withdraw from SAP Sec School ! on Fri, 03 Feb 2012 09:19:41 GMT

verykiasu2010 — Fri, 03 Feb 2012 09:19:41 GMT

so this case has nothing to do with being in a SAP school