<![CDATA[Pilot or Stewardess?]]>Post PE, hope you don’t mind if I pontificate on my thoughts on the expectations of leadership.


Indulge me an example if you may.

As you fly on an airline, you have the aircrew looking after your needs. Typically, they are the flight crew (pilots, flight engineers if any), and cabin crew (stewards/stewardesses).

I would assume the expectations from the passengers are quite different for each category.

The pilot is a highly trained individual, with specific technical abilities. His job is to make the flight plan, calculate fuel loads, understand weather conditions. His job is to fly the jet from point A to point B in the safest way possible, to react to changes quickly and adeptly, and if by the way he can do it using less fuel, so much the better. If he loses concentration and botches his job, the outcome for the passengers are likely to be severe.

If the pilot does his job well. No one even notices it, no one goes up to the cockpit and says Thank You!

The cabin crew, on the other hand, serves the passengers. The get meals, stuff for the kids, blankets etc.

If the stewardesses don’t connect with the people (I mean passengers), the next thing you know there are bad comments in the Straits Times or Skytrax. There are FAR more comments on inflight service from passengers than there is on fight quality.

Which, however, is the more critical?

We expect ALL our MPs to be ‘people’ oriented? Actually, I don’t want my pilots walking up and down the cabin asking whether the seats are comfortable, the food is good, inflight entertainment up to scratch. I want him to be FLYING the d*** airplane! I couldn’t care if he was the rudest, gruffest person on the planet.

But we seem to expect, in the OTHER thread, that in order to be electable, the MP MUST be people oriented, ahead of other every single criteria.

If we want persons more suited to be stewards/desses to be flying our planes, I reckon we are courting catastrophe.

Which is why I think Singaporeans have got our priorities backwards.

BUT, to a large extent, it was the PAP that created this monster They reacted to electoral losses in the past by trying to grind the opposition into the ground on LOCAL issues, by sheer weight of organisational might. AIM etc is a direct result of that approach. So it’s hard to feel sorry for the MIW on that count.

But lets not get to the point where we are saying "I don’t want more doctors/lawyers/technocrat in parliament." I think having some rank and file representation is important, but lets not allow that to be the main or only criteria to be electable.

Apart from cabin crew, we need some stoic, aloof flight crew too.

]]>https://forum.kiasuparents.com/topic/50414/pilot-or-stewardessRSS for NodeThu, 30 Apr 2026 16:16:18 GMTSun, 27 Jan 2013 12:05:00 GMT60<![CDATA[Reply to Pilot or Stewardess? on Mon, 28 Jan 2013 09:27:03 GMT]]>

pirate:
3Boys:


You want to discuss airlines, go here --> http://www.flyertalk.com/ 😉

I moved on to the parachutes and oxygen masks since you dragged me into that bleeping plane of yours. 😉

Don't think there are parachutes for commercial pilots. :scratchhead: I think the engineers of designing the plane is equally important not to make fundamental errors of designing planes with exploring batteries, cracked wings or leaking fuel. Question now is whether our 747 plane which has been very reliable is now replaced by a Dreamliner and our drivers/pilots are competent enough to steer/fly the plane out of danger if a battery explodes in the cockpit. No amount of engineering can salvage human error or an already badly designed plane. :scared:

]]>https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947774https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947774Mon, 28 Jan 2013 09:27:03 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Pilot or Stewardess? on Mon, 28 Jan 2013 08:24:15 GMT]]>

3Boys:
pirate:

[quote=\"3Boys\"]Our pirate does debate very sensibly most times, I don't think he's trying to be cheeky here, just doesn't like my analogy.......


😉

You want to discuss airlines, go here --> http://www.flyertalk.com/ 😉[/quote]I moved on to the parachutes and oxygen masks since you dragged me into that bleeping plane of yours. 😉

]]>https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947743https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947743Mon, 28 Jan 2013 08:24:15 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Pilot or Stewardess? on Mon, 28 Jan 2013 08:15:25 GMT]]>

3Boys:
Mdm Koh:

Can I clarify what \"people-oriented\" means in the context of this thread? If you're saying do leaders need to be populist and pander to the demands of voters, of course not. They have to listen and make the call on whether the demands are justified.


However, if \"people-oriented\" refers to being able to interact and work with people from all walks of life, then definitely leaders need to be people-oriented, especially the leader of a country. Err... let's not defend the PAP for the sake of defending them?

Barack Obama, incidentally, has excellent people skills. He has his critics too, but I don't think anyone can accuse him of not being \"people-oriented\".

Actually a lot of folk on Capitol Hill find him aloof and non-communicative. He is better at communicating with the masses, that's for sure. And being communicative does not equate to being people oriented, or being able to work with people for that matter.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/lexington/2010/01/obama_great_communicator

Bill Clinton, on the other hand.....

Okay.... so Obama's just talkative but he's not able to work well with others. 😆 Like I said, he has his critics but that's :offtopic:

]]>https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947739https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947739Mon, 28 Jan 2013 08:15:25 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Pilot or Stewardess? on Mon, 28 Jan 2013 08:09:46 GMT]]>

Mdm Koh:
Can I clarify what \"people-oriented\" means in the context of this thread? If you're saying do leaders need to be populist and pander to the demands of voters, of course not. They have to listen and make the call on whether the demands are justified.


However, if \"people-oriented\" refers to being able to interact and work with people from all walks of life, then definitely leaders need to be people-oriented, especially the leader of a country. Err... let's not defend the PAP for the sake of defending them?

Barack Obama, incidentally, has excellent people skills. He has his critics too, but I don't think anyone can accuse him of not being \"people-oriented\".
Actually, according to some reports, a lot of folk on Capitol Hill find him aloof and non-communicative. He is better at communicating with the masses, that's for sure. And being communicative does not equate to being people oriented, or being able to work with people for that matter.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/lexington/2010/01/obama_great_communicator

Bill Clinton, on the other hand.....

]]>https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947737https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947737Mon, 28 Jan 2013 08:09:46 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Pilot or Stewardess? on Mon, 28 Jan 2013 08:03:03 GMT]]>Can I clarify what \"people-oriented\" means in the context of this thread? If you're saying do leaders need to be populist and pander to the demands of voters, of course not. They have to listen and make the call on whether the demands are justified.


However, if \"people-oriented\" refers to being able to interact and work with people from all walks of life, then definitely leaders need to be people-oriented, especially the leaders of a country. Whether they are MPs, or they eventually become Ministers, all of them are in leadership positions and should be able to connect with the ground. Forgive me for saying this, I think it's strange to say that it's okay for a leader to lose touch with the people whom he's trying to lead. Then who is he leading, may I know? Why should the people listen to him? Let's not defend the PAP for the sake of defending them.... :siam:

Barack Obama, incidentally, has excellent people skills. He has his critics too, but I don't think anyone can accuse him of not being \"people-oriented\".

]]>https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947734https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947734Mon, 28 Jan 2013 08:03:03 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Pilot or Stewardess? on Mon, 28 Jan 2013 07:53:29 GMT]]>

pirate:
3Boys:

Our pirate does debate very sensibly most times, I don't think he's trying to be cheeky here, just doesn't like my analogy.......


😉

You want to discuss airlines, go here --> http://www.flyertalk.com/ 😉

]]>https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947729https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947729Mon, 28 Jan 2013 07:53:29 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Pilot or Stewardess? on Mon, 28 Jan 2013 07:45:05 GMT]]>

3Boys:
Our pirate does debate very sensibly most times, I don't think he's trying to be cheeky here, just doesn't like my analogy.......

😉

]]>https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947720https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947720Mon, 28 Jan 2013 07:45:05 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Pilot or Stewardess? on Mon, 28 Jan 2013 07:27:35 GMT]]>

HVR:
It's a simple enough analogy and it make perfect sense and easily understood. But what did people do? Debate meaningfully? Last thing on their mind and now we have airline, airline executive, ground crew and so on. Why not introduce travel agents, ticketing agents, hotel representatives into the mix?

Our pirate does debate very sensibly most times, I don't think he's trying to be cheeky here, just doesn't like my analogy.......

]]>https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947706https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947706Mon, 28 Jan 2013 07:27:35 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Pilot or Stewardess? on Mon, 28 Jan 2013 07:23:46 GMT]]>

limlim:

Personally, That \"Get out of my elite uncaring face\" comment from an ex-MP's offspring and whose act is condone by the MP leaves a bitter after taste that doesn't seems to go away....
Definitely agree.

]]>https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947699https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947699Mon, 28 Jan 2013 07:23:46 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Pilot or Stewardess? on Mon, 28 Jan 2013 06:51:26 GMT]]>It’s a simple enough analogy and it make perfect sense and easily understood. But what did people do? Debate meaningfully? Last thing on their mind and now we have airline, airline executive, ground crew and so on. Why not introduce travel agents, ticketing agents, hotel representatives into the mix?

]]>https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947673https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947673Mon, 28 Jan 2013 06:51:26 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Pilot or Stewardess? on Mon, 28 Jan 2013 06:43:47 GMT]]>

3Boys:


So you accept some 'elite' type intellectuals, who may be technically excellent, but maybe have no feel for the ground, are a necessity in g'ment?

What will you do to prevent the debate about whether a person is fit for service in government from ALWAYS degenerating into whether someone is too smart or too clever, or from an 'elite' background, and therefore unelectable?
Yes. No feel for ground as in not free to do groundwork or meet the pple.. that is ok... But no empathy and no \"feeling\" is not quite acceptable ar..

Actually, elite is not an issue.. the issue is lack of empathy..

And the debate is never about being \"elite\", but whether this elite can feel for the pple.

I guess it is not very nice of an elite to comment like everyone have cars, his has 2 that kind of thing (not sure of the background, just read it in some forum).. that is too detached from reality..

Surely an MP must be aware of what is happening in the country even thou he is too busy to meet the pple personally..? how can it be that everyone have cars..??

Actually.. an elite who feels for the pple is Highly desirable.. just that all too often, pple came cross elites with no empathy.. that's why some blanket disregard all elites..

Personally, That \"Get out of my elite uncaring face\" comment from an ex-MP's offspring and whose act is condone by the MP leaves a bitter after taste that doesn't seems to go away....

]]>https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947667https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947667Mon, 28 Jan 2013 06:43:47 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Pilot or Stewardess? on Mon, 28 Jan 2013 06:29:55 GMT]]>Well, if you want to simplify it like that, then let me simplify it this way.


If the pilot and all the first class passengers have parachutes, then I can understand why the passengers in economy class would want a co-pilot from economy class without a parachute.

And if the pilot keeps telling the passengers in economy class that they are not entitled to caviar and champagne when the cabin has depressurized somewhat and what they want are oxygen masks just like the ones in first class, I imagine they have good reasons to be unhappy with the pilot. All the more so if the reason for not lowering the oxygen masks in economy class is just to save a few bucks.

And all the talk about how pretty the stewardess is completely misses the point.

]]>https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947650https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947650Mon, 28 Jan 2013 06:29:55 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Pilot or Stewardess? on Mon, 28 Jan 2013 05:46:07 GMT]]>

pirate:
3Boys:

[quote=\"pirate\"]
And where does the ground crew who make sure the planes do not fall out of the sky fit into your analogy? Whoever the pilots are, the ministers are definitely not on the plane.

See post on other thread.

And pray tell, why are they not on the plane?

Because this is a horrible analogy. It takes more than the pilots to make a plane fly. The citizens, to which the analogy is passengers in a plane, do not do nothing and sit around all day waiting to be served by flight attendants.

A properly maintained plane can fly with just the pilots. No country can run with just the ministers, no matter how well maintained the system is.

A better analogy is an airline. Not a :censored: airplane. Everybody works to keep the plane in the air. But not everyone gets to ride on the plane.

There are pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, ground crew, cleaners, ticketing, marketing etc. And there are the people who put all of these together into a working organization, ie. the executives. The ministers are the executives, not the pilots. The executives are not usually on the planes. An airline where all the senior executives are pilots will run into problems.[/quote]Sorry, the airplane is an excellent analogy, when taken in my original context and not expanded in the way that you wish, which then dilutes the point.

The discussion at hand is about what people desire in an MP. Yes?

The criticism being levelled at KPK, is that perhaps he is too detached, unlikely to be able to 'service' his constituency.

The point being made is that there are leaders, and there are servers, yes?

Hence the point about pilots and stewardesses.

Of course I know there is a whole crew to run the show, including ground staff, ticketing agents.

BUT, to the point, what are we looking for in our MPs? Leaders (pilots), or servers (stewardesses). That is how the analogy is circumscribed, and that is how it is meant to be discussed. Would you deny that our ministers and PM set the course on policies? They make the input to the controls, and the ailerons, engines, rudder (the civil service) responds to execute the commands. See, I can play that angle too.

You then stretch it to say that, 'oh they aren't even on the plane'. In YOUR analogy of the country being an AIRLINE, they are not on the plane, in MY analogy of the country being a PLANE, they are very much so. Geddit?

The airline analogy is a straw man, which you are attacking with gusto, with great effect. Unfortunately with all straw men attacks, its ultimately misguided.

Sorry, my title, my analogy, my constructs......you are free to start an airline thread if you wish, with your own rules.

]]>https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947612https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947612Mon, 28 Jan 2013 05:46:07 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Pilot or Stewardess? on Mon, 28 Jan 2013 05:36:32 GMT]]>

3Boys:
pirate:

[quote=\"3Boys\"]You forget that although our system is Westminster in appearance, the actual execution is far different from how it is in the UK and other jurisdictions. Our ministers are far more into policy details than is typical for politicians elsewhere.


The ministers are MOST definitely the pilots in our context, quite often they outlast the perm secs even.

And where does the ground crew who make sure the planes do not fall out of the sky fit into your analogy? Whoever the pilots are, the ministers are definitely not on the plane.

See post on other thread.

And pray tell, why are they not on the plane?[/quote]Because this is a horrible analogy. It takes more than the pilots to make a plane fly. The citizens, to which the analogy is passengers in a plane, do not do nothing and sit around all day waiting to be served by flight attendants.

A properly maintained plane can fly with just the pilots. No country can run with just the ministers, no matter how well maintained the system is.

A better analogy is an airline. Not a :censored: airplane. Everybody works to keep the plane in the air. But not everyone gets to ride on the plane.

There are pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, ground crew, cleaners, ticketing, marketing etc. And there are the people who put all of these together into a working organization, ie. the executives. The ministers are the executives, not the pilots. The executives are not usually on the planes. An airline where all the senior executives are pilots will run into problems.

]]>https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947606https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947606Mon, 28 Jan 2013 05:36:32 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Pilot or Stewardess? on Mon, 28 Jan 2013 04:43:46 GMT]]>All these are part of our political growing pains towards a government that reflects a variety of concerns and with checks and balances in place. At one level it may seem to be just about petty concerns, but there is a bigger picture there and it is not just about economics. The ongoing debate and sentiments on both side of the fence is part of this process and actually healthy. But to reduce it to just PAP-haters, or ah-lian’s gap toothed smile, or self serving citizens is a bit too simplistic.

]]>https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947581https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947581Mon, 28 Jan 2013 04:43:46 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Pilot or Stewardess? on Mon, 28 Jan 2013 04:31:15 GMT]]>

limlim:
3Boys:


The people want ordinary people in parliament, crafting ordinary policies, to help the ordinary people. Nothing wrong with that, we'll have an ordinary leadership and be an ordinary country, with ordinary schools, ordinary workforce, ordinary healthcare, and ordinary salaries.

There's a different between wanting ordinary pple in parliament and a parliament made up entirely of ordinary pple only..

Surely you can discern that rite..? :evil:

Pray tell, what mechanism do we have in place, if all people want in THEIR constituency, is an MP that looks after their needs primarily, to prevent the above scenario from happening. The PAP may be a team, but the electoral battles are on a csc or GRC (which many PAP-haters hate) basis only.

So you accept some 'elite' type intellectuals, who may be technically excellent, but maybe have no feel for the ground, are a necessity in g'ment?

What will you do to prevent the debate about whether a person is fit for service in government from ALWAYS degenerating into whether someone is too smart or too clever, or from an 'elite' background, and therefore unelectable?

]]>https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947572https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947572Mon, 28 Jan 2013 04:31:15 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Pilot or Stewardess? on Mon, 28 Jan 2013 04:07:27 GMT]]>

Dora1:

However, at this rate, the plane will come crashing down very soon.
Ya lor.. haven't upgrade engine wanna carry more pple... greed.....

]]>https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947550https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947550Mon, 28 Jan 2013 04:07:27 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Pilot or Stewardess? on Mon, 28 Jan 2013 04:05:50 GMT]]>

Nebbermind:
concern2:

It will be interesting to see when opposition MPs be made a Minister.


When that happens, they will not be called 'Opposition' liao! 😆

Got the following about UK (source: http://www.parliament.uk/about/mps-and-lords/principal/government-opposition/)
How about Singapore?

Prime Minister

The Prime Minister is an MP and head of the government. The leader of the party that wins the most seats in a general election is appointed Prime Minister by the Queen. The current Prime Minister is Rt Hon David Cameron MP, leader of the Conservative Party.

The Prime Minister is officially responsible for choosing the other members of the government.

The Prime Minister used to be able to set the date for the next General Election. Since the passing of the Fixed Term Parliament Act 2011 this is no longer the case.

The Prime Minister answers questions every Wednesday in the House of Commons from midday to 12.30pm. Questions can come from any MP and on any subject.

Leader of the Opposition

The leader of the largest opposition party is the Leader of the Official Opposition, which for the Commons and Lords is currently the Labour Party.

Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, leader of the Labour party, is the current Leader of the Official Opposition. This role commands an additional salary to the parliamentary salary received as an MP. The Leader of the Official Opposition picks a 'Shadow Cabinet' to follow the work of government departments.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon is the Leader of the Opposition in the House of Lords.

Cabinet

The Cabinet consists of a maximum of twenty-two paid government ministers chosen by the Prime Minister. They can be Members of either House of Parliament. The Cabinet develop government policies and some members head government departments.

Shadow Cabinet

The Shadow Cabinet consists of members from the main opposition party in the House of Commons and Lords, currently the Labour party. Its role is to examine the work of each government department and develop policies in their specific areas.

]]>https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947547https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947547Mon, 28 Jan 2013 04:05:50 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Pilot or Stewardess? on Mon, 28 Jan 2013 04:05:30 GMT]]>

3Boys:

The people want ordinary people in parliament, crafting ordinary policies, to help the ordinary people. Nothing wrong with that, we'll have an ordinary leadership and be an ordinary country, with ordinary schools, ordinary workforce, ordinary healthcare, and ordinary salaries.
There's a different between wanting ordinary pple in parliament and a parliament made up entirely of ordinary pple only..

Surely you can discern that rite..? :evil:

]]>https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947546https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947546Mon, 28 Jan 2013 04:05:30 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Pilot or Stewardess? on Mon, 28 Jan 2013 03:37:45 GMT]]>

Dora1:
I think the situation now is not about pilot or air stewardess. Its the airline that is relentless asking money from the passengers, and making the plane exceed its carrying capacity just to make more money. The arguement is that if we don't let in more passengers, the airline will bankrupt, everyone will be grounded. And all these are happening while the pilots and some of the air stewardess are paying themselves ever increasing salary, and there is a special area for staff and business/1st class passengers in the plane where they have luxury access to the facilities and space. The number of economy class passengers are increasing at an alarming speed. And the passengers continue to pay higher and higher fees.

However, at this rate, the plane will come crashing down very soon. And in the midst of all, some passengers decided to come out and start serving to minimize their pain......
The workers will not increase even if the airline charges extra from customers, it is the company who had all the extra $$ while the workers slogged with the miserable pay.

]]>https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947515https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947515Mon, 28 Jan 2013 03:37:45 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Pilot or Stewardess? on Mon, 28 Jan 2013 03:33:55 GMT]]>

Nebbermind:
concern2:

It will be interesting to see when opposition MPs be made a Minister.


When that happens, they will not be called 'Opposition' liao! 😆

:? Am I getting confused with the way US works? Can clarify?

]]>https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947510https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947510Mon, 28 Jan 2013 03:33:55 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Pilot or Stewardess? on Mon, 28 Jan 2013 03:31:46 GMT]]>

Dora1:
I think the situation now is not about pilot or air stewardess. Its the airline that is relentless asking money from the passengers, and making the plane exceed its carrying capacity just to make more money. The arguement is that if we don't let in more passengers, the airline will bankrupt, everyone will be grounded. And all these are happening while the pilots and some of the air stewardess are paying themselves ever increasing salary, and there is a special staff area in the plane where the staff themselves have luxury access to the facilities. The number of economy class passengers are increasing at an alarming speed. And the passengers continue to pay higher and higher fees.

However, at this rate, the plane will come crashing down very soon. And in the midst of all, some passengers decided to come out and start serving the people out of their own will......
This is getting interesting... 😉

]]>https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947509https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947509Mon, 28 Jan 2013 03:31:46 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Pilot or Stewardess? on Mon, 28 Jan 2013 03:28:45 GMT]]>I think the situation now is not about pilot or air stewardess. Its the airline that is relentless asking money from the passengers, and making the plane exceed its carrying capacity just to make more money. The arguement is that if we don’t let in more passengers, the airline will bankrupt, everyone will be grounded. And all these are happening while the pilots and some of the air stewardess are paying themselves ever increasing salary, and there is a special area for staff and business/1st class passengers in the plane where they have luxury access to the facilities and space. The number of economy class passengers are increasing at an alarming speed. And the passengers continue to pay higher and higher fees.

However, at this rate, the plane will come crashing down very soon. And in the midst of all, some passengers decided to come out and start serving to minimize their pain…

]]>https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947504https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947504Mon, 28 Jan 2013 03:28:45 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Pilot or Stewardess? on Mon, 28 Jan 2013 03:18:29 GMT]]>

concern2:
It will be interesting to see when opposition MPs be made a Minister.

When that happens, they will not be called 'Opposition' liao! 😆

]]>https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947486https://forum.kiasuparents.com/post/947486Mon, 28 Jan 2013 03:18:29 GMT