concern2:

At the current level of requirement in our mainstream, there is hope for mastery of bilingualism, as long as there is no discrimination towards the language learnt, which unfortunately many kids have, and I don't blame them. Some hate Chinese the way others hate Math. One reason is maturity - they are yet to understand the benefits of learning a 2nd language as kids are yet able to understand the benefits of learning the subject. In fact, knowing another language is far more beneficial compared to learning challenging maths (just my opinion).

I believe that mastery of more than 1 language is for the minority with higher language skills; not everyone can mange it. Also, when I use the word 'mastery', I do not mean just speaking, but the ability to read, write and speak at a level to do the same job in both languages (eg. be a teacher, banker, salesperson etc in either language.)

Also, by the current level of our mother tongue, how low more do you think the kids should go? I hope you are not implying that we should treat MT like a foreign language. :faint: Perhaps that's why MOE wants to use the term MT to bring out the message that MT is essential to our ethnic background, and not optional like a foreign language.
For some kids, I do believe that MT should be treated as a foreign language. I think we need to call a spade a spade, and for many kids, the language they learn as MT is a foreign language. I think I would have learned more that way than the way I was taught in school.

Also, would you not agree that the reason why our older generation, like you said, 'would have been hard put to discuss anything more than the most commonplace topics in more than 1 or 2 of those languages' is because those other languages are really foreign language to them? That unless one has enough practice and exposure to the language, not to mention culture, one is unlikely to really master the language?
I agree with you. Since I believe that, for most people, the 2nd and further languages are 'foreign', I don't believe it's realistic to expect a majority to master 2 or more languages.

When kids learn only a single tongue in their early years, they find it more difficult to learn another language. Our system requires all children to learn MT from pre-school is a way to go.
I agree, but I still don't think a majority will reach mastery in 2 languages even with this.
...

Another way to master bilingualism is to try as far as possible not to mix different languages in a sentences out of convenience. If you pay attention to how Singaporeans speak in general, you will notice that many habitually combine the use of English with MT and vice versa. (I am guilty of doing that too :oops: ) When everyone's doing it, nobody seems to find there is a need to work on and improve on each spoken language, until we are faced with people who understand only one language - either English or Mandarin, to which many end up feeling we are neither here nor there.
Totally agree with this!

(sorry, need to rush off from here, and want to get my ideas out quickly, so hope I've expressed myself clearly)

slmkhoo:

concern2:

The older Chinese generation could speak a variety of languages including dialects, Malay and Tamil because they work with different ethnic groups of people, serve them as customers, or have them as neighbours.

Just want to make a point about the apparent multilingualism of the older generation. My grandparents (especially my grandma) could speak a bit of just about everything - English, Mandarin, several dialects and Malay. However, their vocab was limited, their pronunciation and grammar of each was suspect, and they would have been hard put to discuss anything more than the most commonplace topics in more than 1 or 2 of those languages. Since I don't believe that most people can truly master more than 1 language (the other languages are likely to be at a lower level unless they are closely related languages), given the choice, I would opt for my kids to focus on and master 1 language (with a basic grasp of another) rather than be mediocre in 2. Just my opinion.

sinoboy:

歹势，没读过泰国历史，本地历史也只略知一二。我只知道山里那乌他妈的船到了咱们的海岛之后，如果莱福士没登陆的话，咱们可能还要读梵文的史书呢。 :scared:


祝各位中秋节快乐。

sinoboy:

祝各位中秋节快乐。

atrecord:

sinoboy:

[quote=\"jtoh\"]

Don't forget Parameswara. Try remembering that in Chinese. Add that to Sang Nila Utama and Farquhar and you can imagine how long each paragraph was in those History books.

巴拉迷死蛙拉与发克尔, 几够力一下。Challenging indeed but still easier than 文言文 passages.

sinoboy:

jtoh:

[quote=\"sinoboy\"]

So 山里那乌他妈来到我们的祖国星洲，看到一只大狮子，就叫这地方星加坡啦。。。can imaging it's quite difficult.

Don't forget Parameswara. Try remembering that in Chinese. Add that to Sang Nila Utama and Farquhar and you can imagine how long each paragraph was in those History books.

jtoh:

sinoboy:

So 山里那乌他妈来到我们的祖国星洲，看到一只大狮子，就叫这地方星加坡啦。。。can imaging it's quite difficult.

Don't forget Parameswara. Try remembering that in Chinese. Add that to Sang Nila Utama and Farquhar and you can imagine how long each paragraph was in those History books.

concern2:

slmkhoo, the kids' real MT now is English lah, we should stop kidding ourselves. They should just revert it to calling it 1st language and 2nd language - and the so-called MT now is really the 2nd language - which is generally of a lower standard compared to the 1st. So asking them to learn any subject in a 2nd language is like asking for their lives.


Moreover since we are on the topic of Mother tongue, with so many foreign-born Singaporeans in our system now, what is MT to one is really a foreign language to another - I also see Malay students and Indians taking Chinese as Mother Tongue :rotflmao: It is the term that is funny, not them taking Chinese as 2nd language being funny.

To move with the times, we better start tweeking things here and there.

sinoboy:

So 山里那乌他妈来到我们的祖国星洲，看到一只大狮子，就叫这地方星加坡啦。。。can imaging it's quite difficult.

slmkhoo:

Before 'social studies' appeared, Hist and Geog were subjects in upp Pr. As far as I recall, Hist was Sang Nila Utama etc etc and Geog was about Singapore and SE Asia. Pretty much like what social studies covers in Pr school, I think. Imagine what would happen to many of our kids if they start teaching half of social studies in MT!

slmkhoo:

atrecord:

[quote=\"slmkhoo\"]
I wonder if they were the textbooks used in the mid-70s? I was of that era, and I would like to give a different take on the use of 'mother tongue' for History and Georgraphy. There were a few years when upp Pr students would do either Hist or Geog in 'mother tongue', and my school opted to do Hist in 'mother tongue'. My family is completely English-speaking although we are ethnic Chinese, so my mother tongue (defined as the language you first learned and speak with your mother) is English, not Chinese. Hence my knowledge of the Hist taught in those years is very nearly nil. I have had to read up elsewhere to catch up. I expect that many of today's kids will be like I was. So the question is, is it better to learn and understand Singapore's history in English or to memorise the words but not understand?

Wow, Upp Pri already learnt History or Geography?
Serious?

Well, i learnt history in Chinese in Sec 1&2. I thought that teaching China's history in Chinese is appropriate, learning about the 夏，商，周，三国，宋，明，清等朝代。。。
But learning Western history in Chinese is a bit weird.

limlim:

of coz lah.. usually in the meeting room is 100% Singaporeans. Whole dept Singaporeans.

concern2:

The older Chinese generation could speak a variety of languages including dialects, Malay and Tamil because they work with different ethnic groups of people, serve them as customers, or have them as neighbours.

atrecord:

slmkhoo:

[quote=\"concern2\"]BTW, visited a museum recently and came across some old Chinese text book used in Singapore. It was Geography in Chinese and was primary level. It brings our current Chinese text books to shame. Not in design of course, but in language standard. Higher Chinese is not anywhere near.

I wonder if they were the textbooks used in the mid-70s? I was of that era, and I would like to give a different take on the use of 'mother tongue' for History and Georgraphy. There were a few years when upp Pr students would do either Hist or Geog in 'mother tongue', and my school opted to do Hist in 'mother tongue'. My family is completely English-speaking although we are ethnic Chinese, so my mother tongue (defined as the language you first learned and speak with your mother) is English, not Chinese. Hence my knowledge of the Hist taught in those years is very nearly nil. I have had to read up elsewhere to catch up. I expect that many of today's kids will be like I was. So the question is, is it better to learn and understand Singapore's history in English or to memorise the words but not understand?

slmkhoo:

concern2:

BTW, visited a museum recently and came across some old Chinese text book used in Singapore. It was Geography in Chinese and was primary level. It brings our current Chinese text books to shame. Not in design of course, but in language standard. Higher Chinese is not anywhere near.

I wonder if they were the textbooks used in the mid-70s? I was of that era, and I would like to give a different take on the use of 'mother tongue' for History and Georgraphy. There were a few years when upp Pr students would do either Hist or Geog in 'mother tongue', and my school opted to do Hist in 'mother tongue'. My family is completely English-speaking although we are ethnic Chinese, so my mother tongue (defined as the language you first learned and speak with your mother) is English, not Chinese. Hence my knowledge of the Hist taught in those years is very nearly nil. I have had to read up elsewhere to catch up. I expect that many of today's kids will be like I was. So the question is, is it better to learn and understand Singapore's history in English or to memorise the words but not understand?

concern2:

limlim:

of coz lah.. usually in the meeting room is 100% Singaporeans. Whole dept Singaporeans.

Now, that's what I call rare!

limlim:

of coz lah.. usually in the meeting room is 100% Singaporeans. Whole dept Singaporeans.

slmkhoo:

concern2:

BTW, visited a museum recently and came across some old Chinese text book used in Singapore. It was Geography in Chinese and was primary level. It brings our current Chinese text books to shame. Not in design of course, but in language standard. Higher Chinese is not anywhere near.

I wonder if they were the textbooks used in the mid-70s? I was of that era, and I would like to give a different take on the use of 'mother tongue' for History and Georgraphy. There were a few years when upp Pr students would do either Hist or Geog in 'mother tongue', and my school opted to do Hist in 'mother tongue'. My family is completely English-speaking although we are ethnic Chinese, so my mother tongue (defined as the language you first learned and speak with your mother) is English, not Chinese. Hence my knowledge of the Hist taught in those years is very nearly nil. I have had to read up elsewhere to catch up. I expect that many of today's kids will be like I was. So the question is, is it better to learn and understand Singapore's history in English or to memorise the words but not understand?

Nebbermind:

limlim:

[quote=\"kevkevkaf\"]our dialects are a rarity in Singapore...

not really.. you go SAF camp sure will hear a lot..

Even my workplace many pple like to use hokkien.. yeah.. the dept manager speak to the engineer in hokkien too.. even during project meetings sometimes.

slmkhoo:

I think it boils down to people not knowing the limitations of computer translations. Singlish, unfortunately, is quite often a word-for-word translation from Chinese or Malay (depending on which brand you speak), which leads some to assume that word-for-word translations are OK.

limlim:

kevkevkaf:

our dialects are a rarity in Singapore...

not really.. you go SAF camp sure will hear a lot..

Even my workplace many pple like to use hokkien.. yeah.. the dept manager speak to the engineer in hokkien too.. even during project meetings sometimes.

limlim:

kevkevkaf:

our dialects are a rarity in Singapore...

not really.. you go SAF camp sure will hear a lot..

Even my workplace many pple like to use hokkien.. yeah.. the dept manager speak to the engineer in hokkien too.. even during project meetings sometimes.

concern2:

BTW, visited a museum recently and came across some old Chinese text book used in Singapore. It was Geography in Chinese and was primary level. It brings our current Chinese text books to shame. Not in design of course, but in language standard. Higher Chinese is not anywhere near.