ryanryan:

It's good to have neutral parties like you who acknowledges that COP is useful.

anxious.dad:

mistral77:

COP should include the last pupil who entered via affiliation or DSA. Then it is the REAL cut-off point.

COP is derived at after the S1 process, it is affected by factors such as the number of vacancies available, the spread of the t-scores and the number of applicants (popularity). The COP listing allows parents and students to make better decisions during school selection and to gauge their chances if appeal to a school that they failed to get posted to.
Affiliation COP is pre-determined, if I remember correctly, current affiliation COP ranges from 188 to 250. For previous years affiliation COP, the data can be found on MOE website as well as the S1 guide book. Unless there is an upwards revision in the affiliation COP which potentially implies more vacancies available for S1 posting, this data is quite useless for students that are not in the affiliated school as one can never enter using the affiliation COP during S1.
DSA is meant for students with special talents to enter their dream schools. These students are granted entry before the release of the PSLE results, thus, theoretically, their t-score have got nothing to do with COP.

mistral77:

ryanryan:

[quote=\"mistral77\"]
It should be 9 because VJC allow HMT and CCA 2 point bonus too (maximum up to 4).

But theoretically, should be 7+2+2+2 = 11 lah.

ryanryan:

mistral77:

It should be 9 because VJC allow HMT and CCA 2 point bonus too (maximum up to 4).

But theoretically, should be 7+2+2+2 = 11 lah.

mistral77:

COP should include the last pupil who entered via affiliation or DSA. Then it is the REAL cut-off point.

mistral77:

ryanryan:

[quote=\"mistral77\"]COP should include the last pupil who entered via affiliation or DSA. Then it is the REAL cut-off point.

I guess than the COP for VJC should be 7 ( after including the 2 point advantage for VS boys).

ryanryan:

mistral77:

COP should include the last pupil who entered via affiliation or DSA. Then it is the REAL cut-off point.

I guess than the COP for VJC should be 7 ( after including the 2 point advantage for VS boys).

mistral77:

COP should include the last pupil who entered via affiliation or DSA. Then it is the REAL cut-off point.

gsp_lau:

Good comment from other threads


COP = T-score of last student who is offered a place in the school during S1 postings.

1. Does not include students who withdrew from the school
2. Does not include student who appealed successfully to the school (take a look at the thread \"Appeal Secondary One Posting\", even RGS are accepting students 2 points off the COP)
3. Does not show how many students actually entered the school at COP (maybe only 1 ?) and what is the T-score of the next student (maybe 2 points or higher, if nobody else between them selected the school ?)
4. Does not show the average T-score of the students posted to the school
5. Does not show the students result in \"O\", \"A\" level and \"IB\" diploma

COP should only be viewed as COP and it cannot be used to do any comparison between the schools. COP cannot even tells if a school is popular or not, as we do not see from COP, the choices made by the students, whether the students get into the school with 1st choice, 2nd choice or last choice. 

I congratulate all students who got into their preferred schools. If you did not, don't worry, life is more than just secondary schools.

WeiHan:

thsheng99:

Actually, I did not concede anything . While I agree that COP should not be used as the SOLE determinant of a school performance, it have been used by many parents as an indication of the general quality of a school's expected standard.

Are you telling me that there is absolutely no correlation between the quality of the intake and the performance excellence of the school ? Are you telling me that it is pure coincindence that schools with high COP are universally regarded as the top schools in Singapore ? This is my third time asking you this in this forum but you have surprisely chosen to evade this question again and again :scratchhead:

On why MOE did not include COP as school Masterplan awards, that is because MOE have access to a FULL array of data , which will make their \"ranking\" exercise more accurate. But that does not mean that you can go around and make half-baked analysis on a school performance based on your limited data set, based on asssumptions after assumptions and claimed that that is the only Holy Grail out there. So you think your \"extrapolations\" are much better than COP? It just the kettle calling the pot black, and a high handed approach to boot

Unless MOE decide to resurrect secondary school ranking table, there is no way us common folks on the street like us will get these specific details. COP is ONE of the ways it will give an indication.

Since once again you have conceded that COP should not be used as a sole indicator for school excellence, there is no point of contention.

The correlation is not 100%. Some schools that have won school excellence award are not in your list while some that have not are in your list just because they have a higher COP. Considering that you already conceded that the Masterplan award is a more holistic gauge than COP, I think you will agree that the correlation may not be strong. Moreover, it can get weaker if school leaders now discover that other indicators are no longer easily available except COP and they can now manipulate COP solely, relax on other work and still receive much accolades and praises.

The exclusion of COP in the calculation of MOE's masterplan award is exactly my point. It shows how bad an indicator it is that they have to exclude it completely such that it carries zero weightage in the overall assessment. As for my analysis, I am stating that school final results provide a clearer picture than COP. At least exam results is included in the masterplan award assessment while COP isn't.

I don't find hope in MOE resurrecting the school ranking. In fact, they will remove COP altogether. I think it maybe better. What is the point of making the full picture unavailable while leaving a single indicator that may get less and less indicative available?

thsheng99:

Actually, I did not concede anything . While I agree that COP should not be used as the SOLE determinant of a school performance, it have been used by many parents as an indication of the general quality of a school's expected standard.

Are you telling me that there is absolutely no correlation between the quality of the intake and the performance excellence of the school ? Are you telling me that it is pure coincindence that schools with high COP are universally regarded as the top schools in Singapore ? This is my third time asking you this in this forum but you have surprisely chosen to evade this question again and again :scratchhead:

On why MOE did not include COP as school Masterplan awards, that is because MOE have access to a FULL array of data , which will make their \"ranking\" exercise more accurate. But that does not mean that you can go around and make half-baked analysis on a school performance based on your limited data set, based on asssumptions after assumptions and claimed that that is the only Holy Grail out there. So you think your \"extrapolations\" are much better than COP? It just the kettle calling the pot black, and a high handed approach to boot

Unless MOE decide to resurrect secondary school ranking table, there is no way us common folks on the street like us will get these specific details. COP is ONE of the ways it will give an indication.

WeiHan:

thsheng99:

I think you are extrapolating too much without factual basis. If you look at your post, you are making assumptions after assumptions that IF this is the case, then this WILL follow. You are equally guilty of making broad strokes, aren't you :evil:

That is precisely the point I am trying to made. There are various metrics of measurement and whose is to say one is better than the other, especially when you do not have complete data to make a complete analysis. Unless you happen to work in MOE..

I do not seem to understand why you still fail to understand the measure of COP. Can you please point out in where of my post did I insist that it is used as a sole ranking critieria of a school excellence. Please show some impartiality in our discussion.

Again, let me reiterate my question to you - is it by pure coincindence that the schools with the highest COP are the schools that are universally deemed to be the top schools in Singapore ? Do you not see any correlation in this or you just to choose to debate for the sake of debating ?

I am merely pointing out the flaw of using COP as the sole ranking criteria. Since you have already conceded that COP should not be used as the sole ranking criteria for school excellence, there should be no point of contention now.

Just to add a few fact for readers consideration, the MOE's school masterplan awards uses a broad spectrum of indicators (including academic results, value add, organisational effectiveness, balance education etc...) to measure school excellence. Never was COP included as one of the criteria. Why?

As for the last questions, I am not sure why you want me to make a subjective judgement about school. Whether these schools are regarded as top schools are quite subjective. Searching thru all numbers to find one but ignore others to verify a subjective judgment that one has already reached is flawed thinking. If one need to rank, why not use a broad spectrum of indicators such as the methodology used in the School excellence masterplan?

thsheng99:

I think you are extrapolating too much without factual basis. If you look at your post, you are making assumptions after assumptions that IF this is the case, then this WILL follow. You are equally guilty of making broad strokes, aren't you :evil:

That is precisely the point I am trying to made. There are various metrics of measurement and whose is to say one is better than the other, especially when you do not have complete data to make a complete analysis. Unless you happen to work in MOE..

I do not seem to understand why you still fail to understand the measure of COP. Can you please point out in where of my post did I insist that it is used as a sole ranking critieria of a school excellence. Please show some impartiality in our discussion.

Again, let me reiterate my question to you - is it by pure coincindence that the schools with the highest COP are the schools that are universally deemed to be the top schools in Singapore ? Do you not see any correlation in this or you just to choose to debate for the sake of debating ?

WeiHan:

thsheng99:

I have no intention to rank anything. What did was just to rank the COP in order of highest to lowest to indicate the difficulty of getting into that school.

As for VJC case, that is one way of measuremt. How about measuring the number of A's for each subject, or the number of passes for each subject, or the number of students that got PSC scholarships or the number of president scholars ? Where do you draw the line?

If VJC does not do well in one of the metrics, does it mean it is a school of lower standard ?

What I am saying is that this is no single fool-proof measurement of a school standard. Everybody will choose his own preferred way just as you did.

COP is another. There is no right or wrong. To each his own

Yes...even academic standard, there are many metrics to measure the school standard. It just so happen that average UAS is the most representative metric. In this case, we don't have the data for the past few years. the next best is percentage of distinctions in 3 H2 subjects because if the students can do well in 3 H2 subjects which carry a heavy percentage in the calculation of UAS, the other metrics will consequentially be equally good.In other words, It is impossible that a school has not achieved good results in many subjects if they have a high percentage of students scoring 3 H2 distinctions. And if they do well in this metric, their scholars pool will also be higher. Therefore, percentage of 3 H2 distinctions is a reasonable metric.

For COP, as I have said, I did not discredit it completely. However, it may not be the most accurate measurement of a school standard. Even MOE has never use COP as a ranking metric for school standard. It doesn't even say how popular a school is. For example, if a school has 50 vacancies for a program, its COP will likely be quite high. Further, It may not even measure the difficulty in getting into a school because the school that has a high COP may have other channels for admission such as affiliation etc...It may be difficult for one group of people to be admitted but it is easier for another group (affiliated students). So, one can't in brush stroke conclude that it measures difficulty in admission.

thsheng99:

I have no intention to rank anything. What did was just to rank the COP in order of highest to lowest to indicate the difficulty of getting into that school.

As for VJC case, that is one way of measuremt. How about measuring the number of A's for each subject, or the number of passes for each subject, or the number of students that got PSC scholarships or the number of president scholars ? Where do you draw the line?

If VJC does not do well in one of the metrics, does it mean it is a school of lower standard ?

What I am saying is that this is no single fool-proof measurement of a school standard. Everybody will choose his own preferred way just as you did.

COP is another. There is no right or wrong. To each his own

WeiHan:

thsheng99:

Yes. you are right.


So according your reasoning, VJC should not be a \"Top 5 JC\" since its COP will be 7 ( taking into account 2 point affliation bonus)

It will be only a middle tier JC similar to SAJC and NYJC.

If your intention is to rank the academic standard of the school, then use a better indicator than COP, maybe use A level results.

In this case, VJC's typical results is 50% of each cohort will achieve at least 3H2 distinctions. That places it third after RJC (around 68%), HCJC (around 50-60%). To get a better relative picture, NJC is slightly above 40%, TJC is 30%, RVHS is slightly above 40%, NYJC is around 25% etc...

WeiHan:

thsheng99:

Yes. you are right.


So according your reasoning, VJC should not be a \"Top 5 JC\" since its COP will be 7 ( taking into account 2 point affliation bonus)

It will be only a middle tier JC similar to SAJC and NYJC.

If your intention is to rank the academic standard of the school, then use a better indicator than COP, maybe use A level results.

In this case, VJC's typical results is 50% of each cohort will achieve at least 3H2 distinctions. That places it third after RJC (around 68%), HCJC (around 50-60%). To get a better relative picture, NJC is slightly above 40%, TJC is 30%, RVHS is slightly above 40%, NYJC is around 25% etc...

WeiHan:

thsheng99:

Yes. you are right.


So according your reasoning, VJC should not be a \"Top 5 JC\" since its COP will be 7 ( taking into account 2 point affliation bonus)

It will be only a middle tier JC similar to SAJC and NYJC.

If your intention is to rank the academic standard of the school, then use a better indicator than COP, maybe use A level results.

In this case, VJC's typical results is 50% of each cohort will achieve at least 3H2 distinctions. That places it third after RJC (around 68%), HCJC (around 50-60%). To get a better relative picture, NJC is slightly above 40%, TJC is 30%, RVHS is slightly above 40%, NYJC is around 25% etc...