If only Mother Tongue is not included in T score!

Reply to If only Mother Tongue is not included in T score! on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 13:06:44 GMT

concern2 — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 13:06:44 GMT

jedamum:

from what i heard about his guy, he was doing low-paid jobs cos he only has an O-level, but he held onto multiple jobs to save and was on the constant lookout for opportunity. now he is reaping the fruits of his labour and has the luxury of sending and fetching his kids from school as he is the boss of his own coy.
so i guess to succeed, attitude is much much more important than aptitude.

Wow, sounds like a good role model - certainly takes lots of determination and drive. It is the toughest route to take, but the positive attitude has set him apart from those who lapsed into self-pity, continue to blame, or try to change others instead...

Reply to If only Mother Tongue is not included in T score! on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 12:52:40 GMT

concern2 — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 12:52:40 GMT

karmeleon:

BTW, did you all read the article written by Lee Wei Ling - MM's daughter? She's dyslexic and says she had no problems with chinese but had more problems with english.

No, karmeleon, I missed that. Both my kids have mild symptoms of it, but they have improved with more practice in writing - similarly no problem with Chinese characters.

By the way, I've read somewhere that Chinese language exercises more use of the right brain because the characters are like images, so I always encourage my kids to do well in both languages - even other languages if they can afford the time and I can afford the $$!!

Reply to If only Mother Tongue is not included in T score! on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 12:48:10 GMT

jedamum — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 12:48:10 GMT

concern2:
Yet, unfortunately, many of those who failed despite their aptitude in all other subjects except English subsequently become outcasts of society or end up in low-paid jobs.

concern2,
from what i heard about his guy, he was doing low-paid jobs cos he only has an O-level, but he held onto multiple jobs to save and was on the constant lookout for opportunity. now he is reaping the fruits of his labour and has the luxury of sending and fetching his kids from school as he is the boss of his own coy.
so i guess to succeed, attitude is much much more important than aptitude.

Reply to If only Mother Tongue is not included in T score! on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 12:25:02 GMT

concern2 — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 12:25:02 GMT

Thanks, jedamum! I was going to write that many of those ‘victimized’ by the switch from Chinese to English stream, who strove and survived have become successful entrepreneurs, some even become professors in areas require strong command of Chinese language. Yet, unfortunately, many of those who failed despite their aptitude in all other subjects except English subsequently become outcasts of society or end up in low-paid jobs.

Reply to If only Mother Tongue is not included in T score! on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 12:13:13 GMT

jedamum — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 12:13:13 GMT

clarabella:

That reminds me of a friend. He scored A1s for every single O level subject, BUT FAILED ENGLISH. I think it's difficult for most people to comprehend that there are actually people who are bad in English too!

clarabella,
did we know the same 'someone'??
that was what he told me and can feel that he still has that grudge against the system. it has caused him to stop schooling and pursue entrepreneurship....and now he is doing very very well (can afford to live in landed property)!

Reply to If only Mother Tongue is not included in T score! on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 11:53:37 GMT

karmeleon — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 11:53:37 GMT

ks2me:
Thanks, good to know there is such a thing for Chinese too! Anywhere we can read more on this?

This is so common. But the child has to be certified to have that learning disability(or disabilities) by a MOE-recognised/registered psychologist. Can be autism, dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalculia, ADHD, etc, etc.

Among my friends I can count 2 handfuls already at least.

Reply to If only Mother Tongue is not included in T score! on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 11:47:42 GMT

karmeleon — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 11:47:42 GMT

concern2:
\"dyslexic\" in Chinese! :rotflmao: Ks2me very creative leh. I remember once in Chinese class, I kept repeating 花头白发 instead of 花白头发 in front of 40 students, and my Chinese teacher had to read me the actual text for me to realize my mistake, while the entire class was laughing their head off. If only I could tell my Chinese teacher I had dyslexia in Chinese! :roll:

V farnee, har?

BTW, did you all read the article written by Lee Wei Ling - MM's daughter? She's dyslexic and says she had no problems with chinese but had more problems with english.

Reply to If only Mother Tongue is not included in T score! on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 11:07:51 GMT

concern2 — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 11:07:51 GMT

3Boys:
What if its got nothing to do with that? Some very bright and motivated students do poorly in the language, do we just cast them aside and label them unfairly?

Well said, 3Boys, applies to other subjects like Maths & Science, right? Some are just more skewed towards Arts subjects, but the education system places more emphasis on M&S which is just as demoralizing...

\"dyslexic\" in Chinese! :rotflmao: Ks2me very creative leh. I remember once in Chinese class, I kept repeating 花头白发 instead of 花白头发 in front of 40 students, and my Chinese teacher had to read me the actual text for me to realize my mistake, while the entire class was laughing their head off. If only I could tell my Chinese teacher I had dyslexia in Chinese! :roll:

The matter of motivation - actually, most of the kids are already doing very well in Chinese, scoring 80 to 90 - well, at least by my standard, unfortunately with the pressure to score higher or topping the entire class or country, it becomes demoralizing...

Reply to If only Mother Tongue is not included in T score! on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 10:36:19 GMT

corneyAmber — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 10:36:19 GMT

Full.Cream:
ks2me:

How about aptitude or \"dyslexic\" in Chinese as learning difficulties?
I suppose people cannot understand if there is such a thing as learning disability in Chinese hence motivation and attitude are commonly cited.
I know of someone who used this for exemption from CL!!

Thanks, good to know there is such a thing for Chinese too! Anywhere we can read more on this?

Reply to If only Mother Tongue is not included in T score! on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 10:34:12 GMT

corneyAmber — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 10:34:12 GMT

I believe parents’ anxiety is taking the PSLE milestone out of context. In reality, this is only the FIRST milestone in the entire academic journey. It is not the be all and end all here.

Why has PSLE become such a big issue here is because we parents make it look so important. I believe there is a large number of parents who see the PSLE results of their kids as their own achievement because of the blood and sweat poured into making the boys ~"dragons" and girls~ "phoenixes". To me, it is a process whereby many parents are looking at gratification of their 8-9 years of effort(including choosing the best preschools or ccs)

However, we have to bear in mind, this is the FIRST and NOT ONLY milestone. True to say that it gives a headstart to the children who do better in this exam but to me it only poses the FIRST opportunity to get into a so-called good school. What follows is more days of sweat and blood by the child to the next milestone.

So back to the T-score, whether exclude MT or take 3 best subjects score, we have to look at this in context to the pre-requisites for further learning and training at ‘O’ levels. All these 4 subjects are the basic pre-requisites to enter secondary school because all these subjects will be further expounded in Secondary school. By omitting any of the subjects, we are unfairly admitting children to schools where they are short of one competency pre-requisite to learn the subject at a higher level. What if a child has stellar T-score for 3 subjects and fail the 4th one? Under the current system, the child will certainly be pulled down by the failed subject in the total T-score but still get a passed T-score. But based on the best 3, the child will be admitted to a very strong school and then he/she will begin to suffer the 4th subject in that school. Are we helping the child or setting the child back by a few steps?

To conclude, my key point is PSLE is the pre-requisite to the next step of education, it is not the END of everything. We, as parents, should not overemphasize on this unduly and influence the child to think that this is the MOST important exam in life. Actually the most critical formal exam is the last exam before setting foot into the world to work…which the employers really look at. Being the top student at PSLE will not blow the employers’ mind off, trust me, this is only at best a TROPHY for parents, marking a milestone of their achievement and time to loosen a little to let the child move on academically on their own, if possible.

Reply to If only Mother Tongue is not included in T score! on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 10:15:17 GMT

clarabella — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 10:15:17 GMT

karmeleon:
And some kids can be dyslexic but good in Chinese and poor in English on the other hand....

That reminds me of a friend. He scored A1s for every single O level subject, BUT FAILED ENGLISH. I think it's difficult for most people to comprehend that there are actually people who are bad in English too!

Reply to If only Mother Tongue is not included in T score! on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 10:04:56 GMT

Full.010894Cream — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 10:04:56 GMT

ks2me:

How about aptitude or \"dyslexic\" in Chinese as learning difficulties?
I suppose people cannot understand if there is such a thing as learning disability in Chinese hence motivation and attitude are commonly cited.

I know of someone who used this for exemption from CL!!

Reply to If only Mother Tongue is not included in T score! on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 10:03:28 GMT

karmeleon — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 10:03:28 GMT

ks2me:

How about aptitude or \"dyslexic\" in Chinese as learning difficulties?
I suppose people cannot understand if there is such a thing as learning disability in Chinese hence motivation and attitude are commonly cited.

And some kids can be dyslexic but good in Chinese and poor in English on the other hand.... then certainly we DON'T want the t-score to exclude Chinese, wat. And if good in Chinese, we also won't apply for exemption from Chinese either, right (stupid or what?), but then again, cannot apply for exemption from English(HAHAH!!!).

That's why I say, best to change the computation to the \"Best 3 subjects\" for t-score. Ahhhhhhhhh.... similar in a way to o-levels, but would benefit all students, lah - those who are good in english & those who are good in chinese. :lol:

Reply to If only Mother Tongue is not included in T score! on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 09:58:47 GMT

corneyAmber — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 09:58:47 GMT

3Boys:
In this forum, if you say there is an issue with learning chinese, the immediate conclusion is that there is a motivation or attitude issue. What if its got nothing to do with that? Some very bright and motivated students do poorly in the language, do we just cast them aside and label them unfairly?

This patronising attitude is plain tiresome.......

How about aptitude or \"dyslexic\" in Chinese as learning difficulties?
I suppose people cannot understand if there is such a thing as learning disability in Chinese hence motivation and attitude are commonly cited.

Perhaps you can share what is the difficulty in the learning? For example in dyslexic cases, we know they see b and d in opposite ways. Is there such a problem in looking at Chinese characters such that a character
\"土里\" can be viewed as \"里土\" or.......????

Btw, some dyslexic students are very bright students.

Reply to If only Mother Tongue is not included in T score! on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 09:47:38 GMT

3Boys — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 09:47:38 GMT

In this forum, if you say there is an issue with learning chinese, the immediate conclusion is that there is a motivation or attitude issue. What if its got nothing to do with that? Some very bright and motivated students do poorly in the language, do we just cast them aside and label them unfairly?

This patronising attitude is plain tiresome…

Reply to If only Mother Tongue is not included in T score! on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 09:44:03 GMT

3Boys — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 09:44:03 GMT

concern2:

Also agree with Benten (oh sorry, Bentan ) that we should all encourage our kids to excel in Chinese - to me, it's really in all subjects rather than like what petitmum says, having a negative mindset which doesn't help at all.

Unless we are considering any form of migration to a 'more conducive learning environment', we should make the most out of the current system. The key is to 'motivate' so there is positive attitude towards learning. JMHO

What if its got nothing to do with motivation and attitude?

Reply to If only Mother Tongue is not included in T score! on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 08:51:42 GMT

concern2 — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 08:51:42 GMT

petitemum:
some parents may say, \"If only math is not included in PSLE aggregate, \" while others may say, \"If only english is not Included in PSLE aggregate\". Parents' negative mindset does not help at all. Why not put in effort to create a conducive learning environment for the kids instead?

:celebrate: Agree..

Also agree with Benten (oh sorry, Bentan ) that we should all encourage our kids to excel in Chinese - to me, it's really in all subjects rather than like what petitmum says, having a negative mindset which doesn't help at all.

Unless we are considering any form of migration to a 'more conducive learning environment', we should make the most out of the current system. The key is to 'motivate' so there is positive attitude towards learning. JMHO

Reply to If only Mother Tongue is not included in T score! on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 04:47:41 GMT

mathsparks — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 04:47:41 GMT

James Ang:
my student gets 3A* for EMS and B for MT, he gets only 240. Without MT, he will get at least 260.

Yeah, sure! Without mother tongue, my son will be top student in SG.

Reply to If only Mother Tongue is not included in T score! on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 03:54:50 GMT

cafelatte — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 03:54:50 GMT

tutormum:
..From what I understand from DS3 P6 Chinese teacher, the score for Chinese is very competitive and not doing well in Chinese will definitely bring down the T score drastically. ....

*cold sweat* :shock:

Reply to If only Mother Tongue is not included in T score! on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 03:38:44 GMT

Bentan — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 03:38:44 GMT

lovingmum:
If only MT is not included in T score calculation, it will be interesting to see which school produces the top student yearly. Schools that are well known for not doing well in Mother Tongue may emerge as one of the top schools in Singapore. In a separate topic, parents were guessing which school will produce the top pupil this year. I think it will be one of those SAP schools again, if not, those with kids doing very well in Mother Tongue.

From my past tutoring experiences, if a Singaporean student put equal effort on all his subjects, he will score at least 10-20 marks higher than his peers who dislike Chinese. As parents, we should motivate our child to \"like\" Chinese if we want that 10-20 marks.

Having said that, I think that we will continue to see \"over-age-top-students\" in PSLE, N-level and O-Level for quite a while. Reason being that these students are from countries with little exposure to English. These students come to Singapore, accpeted by neighbourhood schools at older age, study hard to overcome their English barrier, and become top students in Singapore.

One of my student completed Pre-U 3 in China (18 years old) when he came to Singapore. He failed English badly during entrance test and was given Sec-3 N-level. He worked very hard on English but still failed English in Sec 3. However, he was top in his level for Math and Science. By the time he took his O-Level at 21. He was top for all subjects except Humanitites and English (B for both).

Another school that I know of accepts their affilliated Primary school students as low as 196. However, over Sec-1 to Sec-3, the school systematically eliminate lower grade students by either making them to repeat or transferring them out to N-Level schools. Every year they will conduct mass recruitment to take in top students from China to replace the vacancies. By the year of Sec-4, the lower grade students are all gone and their students shine with flying colors in O-level. Some at age 16 must mostly at age 17.

Let's continue to encourage our Singapore-born children to like Chinese.

Reply to If only Mother Tongue is not included in T score! on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 02:22:46 GMT

karmeleon — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 02:22:46 GMT

znzyzyzx:
How about remove the English language from the T-score computation as well, for the benefit of those who are poor in English ?

To benefit all kids. I think it's best to just take the BEST 3 subjects into computation for T-score. Then those who are poor in English but good in Chinese or vice versa, will have chance too! Not all kids are poor in CL ok.

And I think for subject-banding, we should also have Higher Math & Higher Science.

YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply to If only Mother Tongue is not included in T score! on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 02:22:01 GMT

petitemum — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 02:22:01 GMT

some parents may say, "If only math is not included in PSLE aggregate, " while others may say, "If only english is not Included in PSLE aggregate". Parents’ negative mindset does not help at all. Why not put in effort to create a conducive learning environment for the kids instead?

In my son’s sch, the top scorers are v. outstanding in math. I suppose the 2 top scorers 2009 are also v strong in math, not just in MT.

Reply to If only Mother Tongue is not included in T score! on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 01:50:11 GMT

concern2 — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 01:50:11 GMT

3Boys:

I know the feeling........but unfortunately for our type, we are cast to the wolves, labelled as bad attitude, anti-cultural blah blah blah....

I suppose if MOE had left the CHOICE of whether to use Mandarin or English as the 'Mother Tongue' or more specifically Chinese language, the situation would have been different.

Decades ago, our parents/ uncles and aunts /older cousins have gone through similarly difficult times trying to learn English. Those times were worse on students not being able to cope with the sudden switch. It was a complete CULTURAL SHOCK too, and there was NO MERCY given for those who have failed. (I'd love to write more about the political reasons for this, but maybe another time).

These days, things are different. We are 'Uniquely Singapore' - although most of our ancestors are China-born, we are very much different now that are roots are here. If not for the rise of China and our dependence on its economy, I doubt if any influential political figure would stress on the need for MT at all. Yet, such is the realism of life...

Why can't MOE leave the choice to its people whether to choose a school which stresses on Chinese language or not and make change to aggregate requirements? People of the country then have a choice in whether to let their children focus in language or concentrate in other subjects, allowing the kids to soar with their strength instead. It is then up to the schools to set their own entry requirements, and the people to select which ones are most suitable for their kids.

Would that be yet another political reason behind all these? Majority of Singaporeans tend to underestimate the influence of politics over their children's future.

Take a look at HK and our closest neighbour. They are very similar to us in their history - Chinese under British rule. Yet, their Chinese population do not question about their MT like we do. How come? And most of them even know a third language or fourth since young - Cantonese and/or Malay.

Majority of Singaporeans tend to underestimate the influence of politics over their children's future.

Reply to If only Mother Tongue is not included in T score! on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 01:24:23 GMT

tutormum — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 01:24:23 GMT

cindylauper:
my daughter got A*s for Eng, Math, Science and A for Chinese. She only got 253. If only I know what her Chinese score is. Does 75 qualify for A?

From what I understand from DS3 P6 Chinese teacher, the score for Chinese is very competitive and not doing well in Chinese will definitely bring down the T score drastically. He was a very experienced teacher and helped DS3 a lot in improving his Chinese, both orally and written, in preparing for PSLE. He even spotted questions to raise their chances in doing well. The average score for Chinese is very high and his aim was to push all his students to score at least 85 to secure an A. However, it would be ideal to score a high A which is about 90. If a child scores lower than these, he'll suffer in the overall ranking. The top scorer from PRC has an advantage and this may be the reason that she emerged top. :torchme: