Is GEP really necessary?
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Melodies:
:? I ask my sons, what did your teacher teach today... Correct question or not? :?:goodpost:
I remembered a Jewish American mother asks: 'How many GOOD questions did you ask your teacher today?'ponyo:
As someone (paiseh, this thread is too long that it's too difficult to trace) pointed out, the GEP is just that 1% of the cohort, shouldn't we spend some time discussing what to do with the 99% instead?
There's a lot of programs by MOE to improve the infrastructure of the school (new spanking facilities, IT programs, enrichment programs to hone the presentation skills of students). All fine and laudable.
But the time has come for them to re-look at the staffing and resources.
Apart from large class size (yes, DD1 is in a class of 37), there is the issue of insufficient teachers (DD1's FT teaches everything except Chinese, Music and SS). And she is in a fairly good class this year. So I really cannot understand this. Back when I was a primary school kid, the class size was also around 38-40 and my FT had to teach us everything too. And that was more than 30 years ago. Why are there still not enough teachers? Is it a pay issue? Is it a KPI issue that makes the teachers burn out? What can we do to give teachers their due recognition? how do we make good learners out of our kids whether or not they are in GEP? What can we do to help the underprivileged that they do may have access to good teachers, good materials, role models and a skill for life. I like the anecdote shared by Ngiam Tong Dow 'When a Chinese boy goes home after school, his mother asks him: 'What did you learn from your teacher today?' But when a Jewish American boy goes home after school, his mother asks: 'How many GOOD questions did you ask your teacher today?'
How do we get there? What can we do to get there?
All roads lead to Rome. To quote Malcolm Forbes, \"The purpose of education is to replace an empty mind with an open one.\" Isn't that so?
As for the GEP (sorry I am not in the learned league but that does not bother me), if the kids there are happy learning there. Let it be.
Just my teeny weeny contribution... -
Chenonceau:
Don't worry, Chen. Me, won't disturb you on this, I promise. And thanks for sharing your thoughts.Pam... they were useful.
There were lotsa Math practices. The CL Oral notes were lagi useful since DS' school gave nothing except 6 pictures. There were lotsa Science mocks too. Quite a bit MORE than what DS got from his school. The Science notes were not useful and there wasn't much. Probably because Science is taught through experiments and other hands-on activities. BUT I loved the MARKED Science exam practices. We analyzed the mistakes my friend's son made and were able to figure out HOW to answer and WHAT words to avoid... blah blah...
DS' school does not give this sort of targeted feedback. Maybe because Teacher has no time to mark 40 scripts X a few classes. I dunno. Bear in mind also that each Teacher teaches at least 2 subjects in DS' school.
The notes given to me are not for sale nor to be given away. I must destroy them to ensure that no commercial vendor sells them. I made a promise to my friends that must be kept. I think it is silly that schools keep these materials to themselves instead of making them available and accessible to every child who can use them... BUT, there you have it.
A promise is a promise. I will destroy them when I am done. I cannot sell them to anyone nor give them away.
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ksi:
You guarantee 100% > 260 for PSLE?[/quote]Ha ha ha, of course. As long as I get a guaranteed top 3% of the cohort, like MOE is confident of getting top 1% of their GEP. Top 3% because >260 statistically (or on the bell curve means top 3%), no more than 3%*45000 can get >260 per year. So yes, as long as I get a guaranteed top 3% of the cohort.
See above post. Everyone will be able to cope with everything if you read carefully. The base syllabus is PSLE, but with an opportunity for enrichment based upon continual observation and assessment of the child in his classroom.2ppaamm:
[quote=\"ksi\"]
The programme for all. :evil:
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Dnls_mum:
If everyone becomes Indian Chief, there will be no Indian for them to lead.
:goodpost: Well said.2ppaamm:
:goodpost: I agree! I thought I addressed these earlier... don't know which page already... paste here again... in a nutshell, we need to alleviate the position of teachers, get the best people to be teachers, pay them well. Afterall, what is more important than our children well taught. At least the Finnish realized this, when is Singapore going to realize this?
The Singapore education system has changed a great deal since I knew it. I was born to illiterate parents who made good. My parents knew nothing about reading English, though they speak it being natural linguists. My parents knew nothing about what were taught in schools. Therefore, like most parents during my time, we left all the teaching to the teachers and schools. I remember one time when I returned home from school criticizing my principal - the way she sang the National Anthem, I was 10. My father didn't even bother to listen, he just gave me a slap across my face and told me to be respectful.
We had a lot of respect for our teachers in those days, because our teachers far exceeded our parents in academic knowledge. Teachers were empowered to teach, even disciplined us whenever they saw the need. I remember in those days, whenever I was marked wrong in Math, which was seldom, as I scored full marks for every Math test, exam and papers all the way to PSLE, I would just go to the teacher. They would normally look at them and decide if they would accord me marks, though I used a different method from them. Often, they would just change the marks and then put a star there, since it was always full-marks in the end. They were only accountable to what was right and what was wrong, not encumbered. When I could not do my work, since I was relatively weak in Science, they would explain things in detail and taught me how to answer each question. In fact, I learned how to bake and cook in school the same way: I learned creaming, rubbing, whipping methods from my teachers. In turn, I taught my mum. All because, teachers were smarter than parents and they were left to do their jobs.
But I had so much problems in school. I was a misfit as well. My teachers punished me, and even penalized me, taking away my awards and gave them to the second placed child - twice. There was discrimination in schools in those days, but because of who I am, I couldn't conform to school, teachers expect 100% compliance, I liked to challenge. Now that I am an adult, I realized because I had no respect for status quo, I began making innovations and filed some patents. Those skills that were not respected were the exact skills that were needed in our world, but in Singapore schools, questioning were never endured. Fortunately, back in those days, it did not matter what our attitude was, as long as we passed a standard exam, we get to move on to the school of our choice.
Fast forward to today. The power has shifted to a large extent. Our education WAS so successful in raising a generation, most parents are very educated, informed and capable today. The ability of the teachers has improved too: many primary school teachers are graduates today versus our 'O' levels teachers in those days, but the teaching profession has not been able to attract good candidates. How do we adapt to this change? I can think of two solutions: one is for the MOE to recruit very 'powerful' teachers. That means, teachers must be very qualified and highly paid. There are many merits in doing so, and one fantastic example of such a success is the Finland education and reform. They successfully created an education system which then feed into a great workforce. However, this means $$$, government money, and, from the many debates and discussions, we know it is not going to happen. The merits of making teaching the MOST desired professional (in Finland, the second most desired is Medical Doctor) has many advantages, and these are well-researched, but we know that is not going to happen in Singapore. The other solution I can think of, is to hold a tighter rein on teachers, tell them exactly how to handle these more learned parents, their endless questions, and if the teachers cannot handle, escalate the problem, which is the phenomenon in schools today - GEP or not. If the teachers cannot handle - refer to HOD, and the line of command goes all the way. Marking? Stick to the answer sheets, and as long as you do that, there's no way people can challenge you. If challenged by parents who know their work, teachers just say that the answers are not in the answer sheet. So, my take of teachers not being able to mark properly is because of their fear of making mistakes, and by sticking to the answer sheets, they are in a safe harbour. Consequently, we have a bunch of highly qualified teachers, incapacitated by the KPI system and their own inferiority complex.
The bell-curve, which is used in PSLE, or whatever curve they choose to use, has the same purpose and effect. To use the Education Minister's own words, is to make people compete for the best. With all due respect, education is not about competing with each other, it is about bringing out the best in each. Regardless, with this curve hanging around parents' neck, and since the ministry is so aware of the Singaporean kiasu mentality, it is therefore effortless to have high performing students, riding on parents all wanting to push the kids to the right of the curve, wherever the curve maybe. This is the best automated machine in the world if you think about it. As long as parents 'play ball', the results will be sterling: parents will push their kids to excel, and send their kids to tuition, GEP preparation and enrichment classes so that they are better than their peers of the same age. I shudder to think that very soon, many Singaporeans will have to study 24x7 if they were to stay at the top. As of now, even very gifted children have to study till late and have tuitions. During our times, I remember not having even 1 assessment book for PSLE and only 1 for GCE 'O' Levels, and I still did very well. This will keep going until the 'bubble' burst. Don't know when. Hence, children get burnt out.
I have seen and studied many education systems: Chinese local, international schools in China, local system, local international, foreign public and private schools, because my kids were enrolled in them one time or another. I have come to realize that our system has its merits (I agree) but it is not sustainable. It is scary, and has no meaning. Children lose their childhood, passion and love for what they love through hothousing across the island. There are better systems out there, just if the policy makers would come down from their ivory towers and understand that the masses is made up of average people, not all scholars. There are people we can learn from, just if those who set the policies would recognize and admit to that, and stop fooling themselves that we have the BEST policy in the world, when the current academic success is fueled by the hard work of parents and a shadow education system. We don't and can't have the best education system in the world, no country can ever claim she does.
The problem is that in Singapore, education is no long used as a social leveler. I read somewhere once that wiki leaks have a report about some ministry person saying that they don't want everyone to go uni......I can't verify this, but I have heard similar insinuation on many occasions. So sad...sigh.
So i must say that I am lucky and that my non GEP son is in a school that has good teachers. He is doing decently well even though he is in a class close to 40. Whew! :xedfingers: Again, we make the best of the situation.
But I know we are working towards 30% tertiary education.
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wsywin2012:
Agree! Agree!
:goodpost: but i still think that MOE has considered all of these issues and decided that GEP is still necessary. Singapore can only depend on her citizens, so maybe MOE's mindset is to create a group of \"elite\" citizens, i guess...
well, i personally don't think that it is correct or wrong to implement the GEP. people look from different perspectives.
some feel that education should be focus on the better ones more, since they usually have a greater capacity and are able to learn more \"chim\" things faster, so the govt should allocate more resources to this group of students
however others feel that education should focus on everyone and make all citizens equally good.
Do not be envious of what others have. Make the best of what we have.
In my personal experience, education help determine our starting point and get us started. But it does not determine how we do after that. Hard work, attitude and ability to apply what we have learned will determine if we are successful in life. We need to be self motivated. Those who expects external motivation or expect the environment and external conditions to change to help us along will be disappointed.
please don't bash me! :xedfingers:
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verykiasu2010:
:goodpost: good summarytck:
Can't help but be reminded of the Crab Syndrome after reading this thread.
From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality
Crab mentality, sometimes referred to as crabs in the bucket, describes a way of thinking best described by the phrase \"if I can't have it, neither can you.\" The metaphor refers to a pot of crabs. Individually, the crabs could easily escape from the pot, but instead, they grab at each other in a useless \"king of the hill\" competition which prevents any from escaping and ensures their collective demise.[1][2] The analogy in human behavior is that of a group that will attempt to \"pull down\" (negate or diminish the importance of) any member who achieves success beyond the others, out of envy,[3] conspiracy or competitive feelings.
***************************
I think we can all agree that Singapore mainstream schooling isn't ideal, large class size, (arguably) worse teachers, one-size-fits-all curriculum etc. The government has seen it fit to bestow upon a small group of students an enriched curriculum coupled with significantly smaller class size. I think we all agree that every student (not just GEP kids) will benefit from a differentiated (not necessarily enriched) curriculum and small class sizes.
However, the vitriol seen in this thread smacks of envy and sadly sometimes hearsay, misinformation and personal prejudices (from bad experience with GE branch). Instead of calling for these \"benefits\" to be taken away from this 1%, the discussion should instead be to fight for all kids to have, for example, small class sizes. Just because most think small class sizes will never come to mainstreamers, is it right then to pour so much scorn on GEP and call for them to lose these \"privileges\"?
Some forumers here keep harping on the fact that GEP kids aren't really gifted, ONLY High-Ability. Then so be it. If GEP is renamed HAEP, but all benefits remain intact, will the calls for its disbandment remain? I'm afraid the crab mentality will still be there, whatever you call the rose.
Another topic that keeps coming up is that GEP kids are trained and hot-housed and so aren't really gifted. Again, giftedness is wide-ranging. For a few forumers here with PG kids, only PG is considered gifted. To them, only PG kids require intervention. How many PG/EG kids can there be in Singapore each year? Be realistic. Stop bashing a programme just cos your kid can't fit in. Again, no Crab Mentality, just cos others can fit in, suddenly, they are robots and mindless worker ants that are only fit to be administrators for the Singapore government. Many kids have and are benefiting from GEP, as some parents have attested to in this thread.
I believe GEP has cast the net wider in recent years and now offer more places than before, perhaps to take into account the possibility of kids having been trained/hothoused (instead of 1%, it's now 1.5%? I may be wrong). So more kids are getting into the programme and this wider net also minimizes the chance of missing out a truly gifted child. And honestly, seriously, how many percent of the 500 GEP kids each year do detractors truly think has been hothoused? Do not paint the entire group with the same brush, as if every single one of these kids has been hothoused.
Asking for abolishment of DSA is definitely a step backwards. It is precisely because PSLE had its flaws (requires kids to be good in all subjects and to be academically strong) that DSA was conceived. Now kids can go to their preferred schools via sports, arts, language, math etc. And there are even specialised schools for kids who weren't identified earlier. Every kid has a chance at DSA. If a child doesn't have a niche that schools are looking for, then voila, there's still the PSLE route. Calls for using only PSLE results is just the type of envious Crab Mentality of those who don't have a niche. It's not that they think their kids will get into the preferred schools through PSLE, it's just that they don't want these other kids to get in through DSA. Sad.
There is a worse scenario you know. Imagine if at its conception, it was decided that GEP kids will be grouped in one academy. And it's through-train for all these kids. These kids do not even need to take PSLE. Would you guys prefer that? As it is now, GEP kids are taught in mainstream schools. And not everyone gets DSA. GEP kids need to take PSLE too. So please lah, can stop with the Crab Mentality? Discuss as much as possible on how to make Singapore education better for ALL, but stop trying to pull down this 1%.
Like! Like! Like! :goodpost: -
Dnls_mum:
Problem is, some people can't even get started... :sad: and they are just left there to handle on their own with no resources. Poverty and lack can be be a tragedy, even in today's Singapore. Some people can never get out of their dump.education help determine our starting point and get us started. But it does not determine how we do after that. Hard work, attitude and ability to apply what we have learned will determine if we are successful in life. We need to be self motivated. Those who expects external motivation or expect the environment and external conditions to change to help us along will be disappointed.
please don't bash me! :xedfingers: -
Dnls_mum:
If what you said is true those in blue above, I say if if if, :scratchhead:
:goodpost: Well said.2ppaamm:
:goodpost: I agree! I thought I addressed these earlier... don't know which page already... paste here again... in a nutshell, we need to alleviate the position of teachers, get the best people to be teachers, pay them well. Afterall, what is more important than our children well taught. At least the Finnish realized this, when is Singapore going to realize this?
The Singapore education system has changed a great deal since I knew it. I was born to illiterate parents who made good. My parents knew nothing about reading English, though they speak it being natural linguists. My parents knew nothing about what were taught in schools. Therefore, like most parents during my time, we left all the teaching to the teachers and schools. I remember one time when I returned home from school criticizing my principal - the way she sang the National Anthem, I was 10. My father didn't even bother to listen, he just gave me a slap across my face and told me to be respectful.
We had a lot of respect for our teachers in those days, because our teachers far exceeded our parents in academic knowledge. Teachers were empowered to teach, even disciplined us whenever they saw the need. I remember in those days, whenever I was marked wrong in Math, which was seldom, as I scored full marks for every Math test, exam and papers all the way to PSLE, I would just go to the teacher. They would normally look at them and decide if they would accord me marks, though I used a different method from them. Often, they would just change the marks and then put a star there, since it was always full-marks in the end. They were only accountable to what was right and what was wrong, not encumbered. When I could not do my work, since I was relatively weak in Science, they would explain things in detail and taught me how to answer each question. In fact, I learned how to bake and cook in school the same way: I learned creaming, rubbing, whipping methods from my teachers. In turn, I taught my mum. All because, teachers were smarter than parents and they were left to do their jobs.
But I had so much problems in school. I was a misfit as well. My teachers punished me, and even penalized me, taking away my awards and gave them to the second placed child - twice. There was discrimination in schools in those days, but because of who I am, I couldn't conform to school, teachers expect 100% compliance, I liked to challenge. Now that I am an adult, I realized because I had no respect for status quo, I began making innovations and filed some patents. Those skills that were not respected were the exact skills that were needed in our world, but in Singapore schools, questioning were never endured. Fortunately, back in those days, it did not matter what our attitude was, as long as we passed a standard exam, we get to move on to the school of our choice.
Fast forward to today. The power has shifted to a large extent. Our education WAS so successful in raising a generation, most parents are very educated, informed and capable today. The ability of the teachers has improved too: many primary school teachers are graduates today versus our 'O' levels teachers in those days, but the teaching profession has not been able to attract good candidates. How do we adapt to this change? I can think of two solutions: one is for the MOE to recruit very 'powerful' teachers. That means, teachers must be very qualified and highly paid. There are many merits in doing so, and one fantastic example of such a success is the Finland education and reform. They successfully created an education system which then feed into a great workforce. However, this means $$$, government money, and, from the many debates and discussions, we know it is not going to happen. The merits of making teaching the MOST desired professional (in Finland, the second most desired is Medical Doctor) has many advantages, and these are well-researched, but we know that is not going to happen in Singapore. The other solution I can think of, is to hold a tighter rein on teachers, tell them exactly how to handle these more learned parents, their endless questions, and if the teachers cannot handle, escalate the problem, which is the phenomenon in schools today - GEP or not. If the teachers cannot handle - refer to HOD, and the line of command goes all the way. Marking? Stick to the answer sheets, and as long as you do that, there's no way people can challenge you. If challenged by parents who know their work, teachers just say that the answers are not in the answer sheet. So, my take of teachers not being able to mark properly is because of their fear of making mistakes, and by sticking to the answer sheets, they are in a safe harbour. Consequently, we have a bunch of highly qualified teachers, incapacitated by the KPI system and their own inferiority complex.
The bell-curve, which is used in PSLE, or whatever curve they choose to use, has the same purpose and effect. To use the Education Minister's own words, is to make people compete for the best. With all due respect, education is not about competing with each other, it is about bringing out the best in each. Regardless, with this curve hanging around parents' neck, and since the ministry is so aware of the Singaporean kiasu mentality, it is therefore effortless to have high performing students, riding on parents all wanting to push the kids to the right of the curve, wherever the curve maybe. This is the best automated machine in the world if you think about it. As long as parents 'play ball', the results will be sterling: parents will push their kids to excel, and send their kids to tuition, GEP preparation and enrichment classes so that they are better than their peers of the same age. I shudder to think that very soon, many Singaporeans will have to study 24x7 if they were to stay at the top. As of now, even very gifted children have to study till late and have tuitions. During our times, I remember not having even 1 assessment book for PSLE and only 1 for GCE 'O' Levels, and I still did very well. This will keep going until the 'bubble' burst. Don't know when. Hence, children get burnt out.
I have seen and studied many education systems: Chinese local, international schools in China, local system, local international, foreign public and private schools, because my kids were enrolled in them one time or another. I have come to realize that our system has its merits (I agree) but it is not sustainable. It is scary, and has no meaning. Children lose their childhood, passion and love for what they love through hothousing across the island. There are better systems out there, just if the policy makers would come down from their ivory towers and understand that the masses is made up of average people, not all scholars. There are people we can learn from, just if those who set the policies would recognize and admit to that, and stop fooling themselves that we have the BEST policy in the world, when the current academic success is fueled by the hard work of parents and a shadow education system. We don't and can't have the best education system in the world, no country can ever claim she does.
The problem is that in Singapore, education is no long used as a social leveler. I read somewhere once that wiki leaks have a report about some ministry person saying that they don't want everyone to go uni......I can't verify this, but I have heard similar insinuation on many occasions. So sad...sigh.
So i must say that I am lucky and that my non GEP son is in a school that has good teachers. He is doing decently well even though he is in a class close to 40. Whew! :xedfingers: Again, we make the best of the situation.
I think they don't want so many scholars in Singapore.
This could because nobody will want to work as office cleaner, counter staff or toilet cleaner or dish cleaner or those at food courts etc. Sorry I did not mean that this job is low class or whatever. But they are of lower pay. Moreover, Singaporean don't like imports like FT, government no choice has to only give 1:20 attention to the 1%.
My guess only, this topic is very sensitive & I might offend someone up there. This is only if and I think only. OK? :nailbite: -
2ppaamm:
Your point here is about social mobility. Sadly, it has been reported that Singapore has one of the lowest social mobility in the world for a developed country.
Problem is, some people can't even get started... :sad: and they are just left there to handle on their own with no resources. Poverty and lack can be be a tragedy, even in today's Singapore. Some people can never get out of their dump.Dnls_mum:
education help determine our starting point and get us started. But it does not determine how we do after that. Hard work, attitude and ability to apply what we have learned will determine if we are successful in life. We need to be self motivated. Those who expects external motivation or expect the environment and external conditions to change to help us along will be disappointed.
please don't bash me! :xedfingers:
So, it's true that while no one is being denied an education in Singapore regardless of their financial ability, some one from a less than ideal family environment need to be self motivated to move out of the trap, and so more often than not moves in a vicious cycle. But in my personal opinion, that has nothing to do with GEP or non GEP. -
Mychildren:
:rotflmao: people are sensitive because most people are trying to fend for their own, which is normal....government no choice has to only give 1:20 attention to the 1%.
My guess only, this topic is very sensitive & I might offend someone up there. This is only if and I think only. OK? :nailbite:
Anyway, your reasoning is logical, but, why only for 3 years, and then suddenly, there's no more need to nurture this group after PSLE.
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