Is GEP really necessary?
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HVR:
Good for you!May I ask among us who want to be construction workers, restaurants waiters, coffee shop assistants, bus drivers, cleaners, etc? So no choice we employ foreign workers and it's wrong? Just because outside their work hours, they somehow 'tax' our public transport system, our amenities when they go about their life?
What is fair? The good schools must become bad schools and the rich must become poor? So we might as well have a giant rotation kind of scheme to rotate everything so everything and everyone is fair.
The bottomline is we cannot ensure equal distribution but equal opportunity. Having said that, if you bother, you would know they are many schemes in place to 'redistrubute' wealth to the less privileged. Tax system is one. Utility rebate is another. Just to name a few.
I am from very poor background and now I think I am at least above average class and I didn't go through any good schools, good uni so I kind of resent it when people say the poor here doesnt stand a chance.
DH and I came from simple backgrounds too. We made it too. :imcool:
We benefitted from the system. My concern now is that unlike our generation, social mobility in Singapore is now among the lowest in the world for developed countries. Giving little rebates here and there is not changing it. I must say then it is lucky we already moved up the social ladder, so my kids are lucky to be starting higher up and with low social mobility, the likelihood is that they have a gd chance of staying up. But I still worry that it'll be a strain for them. But can those of similar backgrounds as us previously, but live in this generation have the same opportunity that we had? I sincerely hope so.
Someone once asked me during the previous GE, you have benefitted from the system. Many are envious of what you have achieved and aspire to be where you are. Why are you still not satisfied? My answer: I am grateful for what I have, that's why I have never thought of leaving this country. I only worry for my kids. I'm not sure if they will survive if things continue as they are. If someone like me worry about the future, I'm not sure why those who have not achieved what I have, not be concern. Perhaps, what they don't know or don't have, don't harm them? Or perhaps they are just more contented with life, but I'm an ungrateful idiot who is never satisfied?
I am not trying to put anyone down, but just airing my own views and concerns. Like I said previously, I was educated and influenced by Brits in my very impressionable JC years so even though I had all my education in Singapore, I do think a little different. My problem, I think.
But again, it is true that it is so easy to talk. Am I noble enough to give up all I have for the greater good? I think not :skeptical:
So do I want GEP to be scrapped? I think not. Do I want the elite schools to do away with alumni priority, I think not. Am I a hypocrite, I think not. i am pragmatic. :rotflmao:
Do I think there is equal opportunity for all in Singapore? I don't think so. At least, not any more now, maybe previously. -
2ppaamm:
Finnish universities have courses on forestry and fisheries management. Are you saying that folk who pursue those courses are then not being brought up to the best of their abiliities? Industry is industry, it is agnostic. Should the institutes of a country not pursue courses that are of relevance to that country?
Okok, let me explain.3Boys:
Why the distraction around the casinos? A point was made about spending more on education and basically I think we want to take a long hard look before we leap down that path.
Some folk are really masters at morphing and distracting a discussion when an uncomfortable point is made.
In 2005, when the government decided to legalize the gambling industry, the higher institutes were asked to start preparing the workforce for the industry. New courses were devised, new buildings and new people brought in. Of course we cannot call the course \"gambling\" course lah, just like we cannot call the casino \"gambling dens\". We then gave them nice names.
So yes, there was money that was sunk into education, but it was always to prepare the workforce according the the government's projection. That's why, our economy will never (touch wood) suffer low employment by DESIGN and through planning. There are pros and cons to this. Pros is that the employment rate is ensured low and all those economic data look good. Cons is that a child is not developed for him to reach his potential, but his contribution to the country. Which again, may not be a con, if you think about it, as long as you have children who are happy earning a big fat salary and chasing the 5 (or however many) C's. But the problem is our youngs are no longer like us, they are exposed to too much western influence, media da-da-da... therefore, we'll watch and see lor...
Get how the casino come in now? Just like how you brought up defense.
Not every smart kid needs to pursue quantum physics or molecular genetics.
Well, you have a strange way of putting your point across, if only you understand the intent and it being so open to misinterpretation. -
2ppaamm:
I did not say we were the best, but neither do I believe our teaching system is in dire need of overhaul. If there is an issue with fairness in our society (and I will grant you that there is), then it needs to be dealt with at the societal level and school is but one small part of that.
Of course we should not just take a system and plonk it into ours. Our system has its merits, but the problem is complacency. We should not take lock, stock and barrel from any country, NEVER! However, there are things to learn from others! Woe unto us if we keep insisting we are the best! All I said about Finnish is that they have the best teachers who are authoritative when it comes to teaching the children. Our teaching quality sorely requires an uplift.3Boys:
It's easy to speak in grand terms and assume the moral high ground when expounding aspirations about leveling up, and prescribing high minded conceptual ideas. Very nice, I also know how to do.
But how about looking at it holistically and making the trade-offs. Education is not in and of itself, it is part of the society in which it belongs, catering to it and sharing it's constraints. Is Finland all that it's cut out to be? I have spoken with someone consulting for the Finnish Employment and economic development office, and there are some real structural issues in the Finnish economy that is going to hurt them in the near and mid term. Will their new fangled education system be a way to solve that or be sustainable in the future? Only time will tell, but let's not just suddenly make this leap of faith without understanding impact, both upside and downside.
You don't think we need good teachers and more teachers? :?
I have said before, there is not point giving and iPad to a child who goes home to a family with absentee fathers, or a child who needs to work at the family hawker stall. -
3Boys:
3Boys, I agree with you. We have an issue of social mobility. This is a social problem. Not a GEP or No GEP issue. Not an education system issue.
I did not say we were the best, but neither do I believe our teaching system is in dire need of overhaul. If there is an issue with fairness in our society (and I will grant you that there is), then it needs to be dealt with at the societal level and school is but one small part of that.
I have said before, there is not point giving and iPad to a child who goes home to a family with absentee fathers, or a child who needs to work at the family hawker stall. -
3Boys:
No, hehehe and yes, hehehe... don't know how you came to the conclusion that I will come to the conclusion, but I don't have an opinion on this.[quote] Industry is industry, it is agnostic. Should the institutes of a country not pursue courses that are of relevance to that country?[/quote]No view on this. Just pointing out the pros and cons does not mean agree or disagree. I also didn't state my stand and no stand, can't be bothered to take a stand on this, because there are merits and demerits. And I am no government, so I cannot be bothered to agree or disagree.
Finnish universities have courses on forestry and fisheries management. Are you saying that folk who pursue those courses are then not being brought up to the best of their abiliities?
[quote]Well, you have a strange way of putting your point across, if only you understand the intent and it being so open to misinterpretation.[/quote]So do you, and everybody else. Don't read too much into things, point is, I don't have a stand and I was just stating mostly facts, not opinions, and I don't really have a stand on certain issues.
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3Boys:
The education was a more equitable one where I came from, where I had an equal opportunity when my family was poor, but it has evolved for the \"better\", and I don't even want to discuss what this \"better\" is any more because I will be talking in circles.
I did not say we were the best, but neither do I believe our teaching system is in dire need of overhaul. If there is an issue with fairness in our society (and I will grant you that there is), then it needs to be dealt with at the societal level and school is but one small part of that.
I have said before, there is not point giving and iPad to a child who goes home to a family with absentee fathers, or a child who needs to work at the family hawker stall.
Of course. There is no point giving a child an iPad unless one can ensure it adds value to his education. As it is today, there's little or adhoc software to teach. Look, beautiful schools, state of the art buildings, wonderful hardware. Why not look into the software (the teachers, the educators, the syllabus, the structure etc) as well? And the part about the family hawker stall? I know exactly how it is like. I was one. In today's educational system, I would have been in the streets, I couldn't even afford an assessment book, thank God we didn't need one. -
2ppaamm:
No view on this. Just pointing out the pros and cons does not mean agree or disagree. I also didn't state my stand and no stand, can't be bothered to take a stand on this, because there are merits and demerits. And I am no government, so I cannot be bothered to agree or disagree.
No, hehehe and yes, hehehe... don't know how you came to the conclusion that I will come to the conclusion, but I don't have an opinion on this.[quote] Industry is industry, it is agnostic. Should the institutes of a country not pursue courses that are of relevance to that country?3Boys:
Finnish universities have courses on forestry and fisheries management. Are you saying that folk who pursue those courses are then not being brought up to the best of their abiliities? [quote]Well, you have a strange way of putting your point across, if only you understand the intent and it being so open to misinterpretation.[/quote]So do you, and everybody else. Don't read too much into things, point is, I don't have a stand and I was just stating mostly facts, not opinions, and I don't really have a stand on certain issues.[/quote]OK lor, you say no opinion, then no opinion lor....
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3Boys:
No view on this. Just pointing out the pros and cons does not mean agree or disagree. I also didn't state my stand and no stand, can't be bothered to take a stand on this, because there are merits and demerits. And I am no government, so I cannot be bothered to agree or disagree.
No, hehehe and yes, hehehe... don't know how you came to the conclusion that I will come to the conclusion, but I don't have an opinion on this.[quote] Industry is industry, it is agnostic. Should the institutes of a country not pursue courses that are of relevance to that country?2ppaamm:
[quote=\"3Boys\"]
Finnish universities have courses on forestry and fisheries management. Are you saying that folk who pursue those courses are then not being brought up to the best of their abiliities? [quote]Well, you have a strange way of putting your point across, if only you understand the intent and it being so open to misinterpretation.[/quote]So do you, and everybody else. Don't read too much into things, point is, I don't have a stand and I was just stating mostly facts, not opinions, and I don't really have a stand on certain issues.[/quote]OK lor, you say no opinion, then no opinion lor....[/quote]Sorry to disappoint, sometimes, more than one model can work, as long as we know what we are working towards. The government has its views, and it is ok, as long as they carry whatever they have in mind through, and this policy has worked to a large extent. But when they fail or no results, then... they either change or they are changed. Unless some policies are so obviously wrong or have not worked for years, why oppose?
Hehehe... setting up schools to support the IR industries is their prerogative, I also understand they need to create jobs and I understand when old man said, \"All pockets will jingle\", but I believe there are other kinds of jobs that can be created, and the resources into those institutes could have been invested into something else, and other kinds of schools. I agree there is limited resources in the country. But this is all water under the bridge, we cannot demolish those IRs, can we? So, do we have a choice but to train enough workers to work there? No. So pragmatically, I also participated in training these folks to work there.
Their wish was my command.
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I've never quite forgiven this governmentt for bringing in the casinos despite gathering feedback... hearing people out... and then still going right ahead. I suppose it's gonna do it again in the new Dialogue on National Values... and what we want Singapore to become.
Talk... talk... talk... and then... oh well... WE think this is best... WE know best... WE are smart, gifted, scholars, had perfect grades and therefore also perfect thinking (YOU... where were YOU when I collected my perfect A level cert and served as President of my JC's student council... and lounged around the fireplace at Cambridge?). So... thank you for giving your 2 cents, I will now tell you that THIS is what we will do... you people of inferior intellect.
And what they do will be exactly what they wanted to do BEFORE all the National Dialogue. :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: -
Dnls_mum:
Pam and Dnls_mum... :goodpost: :goodpost:2ppaamm:
Mixing is always better ... once a group is branded, it is hard to remove that label, in fact, sometimes, some PG/EG deliberately get labeled 2E, so that people will pity them on the disability part.
Agree Agree. That's why when my boy went to GEP, I insisted that he take up CCA that is not academically linked! No Comp Science, Robotic or even Math Olympiad. I made him join scouts! He was the only GEPer in Scouts! :rotflmao: I want him to mix with others and enjoy outdoor group activities. It worked! He is now in IP school (NJC) but not GEP school and has no problem mixing with his other classmates. He is doing well in school and his teacher did notice that he is very fast with maths and always had alternative solutions and so asked us and was not surprise when we confirmed he came from GEP. He now does accelerated maths which is good for him as he was already showing signs of being bored with the general math curriculum. His teacher has asked him to be a peer tutor, and he has our blessings to share his knowledge with his classmates. Again, his CCA now is Canoeing and not in some acedamically linked CCA, and he is enjoying it and mixing well with all regardless of academic strength.
So frankly, we can make the best of the situation and it is up to us parents to decide how we want our child to grow up
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