Is GEP really necessary?
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Dnls_mum:
Melodies:
Hi Dnls_mum, I'm so sorry about your bad experiences with those high qualification candidate. I have interacted with many of them from Ivy-leagued Uni and they are all very articulate, charisma and extremely smart and effective. They are very down-to earth too and easy to work with. Not nerdy at all! No, they are not like our ministers... not at all!!
[quote=\"Dnls_mum\"]
I'll not pick the PhD. Those good at studies not necessary good at work. Conversely, too highly educated cannot bring themselves down to communicate with normal people. Just like our ministers lor :rotflmao:
I am in front line sales and I speak from personal experience. Those who are too smart think they know everything and do not listen to what their clients really want. They think they know what their client wants.
In my experience PHD, especially mathematician only good in dealing room. And then even some cannot succeed because no EQ. Too smart, no one else understand them or can communicate with them. These people too academic and not in touch with real world.
They are very smart and very articulate, no doubt. I don't deny. But the problem is my customers are not PHDs. They are normal people. In this world, customer is always right :). I need them to be able to communicate with normal people. :). I have not come across a successful sales person who is a PHD. Maybe my world too small.
But if you already made up your mind, why you ask me in the first place???[/quote]On the contrary, I think your world quite quite quite large. -
I have already said that they will stand out in my industries but I'm not sure about your banking industry. Say if communication and people skills are not a problem at all, between these two two candidates, will you still choose the one without PHD?
Dnls_mum:
Melodies:
Hi Dnls_mum, I'm so sorry about your bad experiences with those high qualification candidate. I have interacted with many of them from Ivy-leagued Uni and they are all very articulate, charisma and extremely smart and effective. They are very down-to earth too and easy to work with. Not nerdy at all! No, they are not like our ministers... not at all!!
[quote=\"Dnls_mum\"]
I'll not pick the PhD. Those good at studies not necessary good at work. Conversely, too highly educated cannot bring themselves down to communicate with normal people. Just like our ministers lor :rotflmao:
I am in front line sales and I speak from personal experience. Those who are too smart think they know everything and do not listen to what their clients really want. They think they know what their client wants.
In my experience PHD, especially mathematician only good in dealing room. And then even some cannot succeed because no EQ. Too smart, no one else understand them or can communicate with them. These people too academic and not in touch with real world.
They are very smart and very articulate, no doubt. I don't deny. But the problem is my customers are not PHDs. They are normal people. In this world, customer is always right :). I need them to be able to communicate with normal people. :). I have not come across a successful sales person who is a PHD. Maybe my world too small.
But if you already made up your mind, why you ask me in the first place???[/quote] -
Melodies:
I have already said that they will stand out in my industries but I'm not sure about your banking industry. Say if communication and people skills are not a problem at all, between these two two candidates, will you still choose the one without PHD?
Dnls_mum:
[/quote]I will choose the Singaporean! :evil:Melodies:
Hi Dnls_mum, I'm so sorry about your bad experiences with those high qualification candidate. I have interacted with many of them from Ivy-leagued Uni and they are all very articulate, charisma and extremely smart and effective. They are very down-to earth too and easy to work with. Not nerdy at all! No, they are not like our ministers... not at all!!
[quote=\"Dnls_mum\"]
I'll not pick the PhD. Those good at studies not necessary good at work. Conversely, too highly educated cannot bring themselves down to communicate with normal people. Just like our ministers lor :rotflmao:
I am in front line sales and I speak from personal experience. Those who are too smart think they know everything and do not listen to what their clients really want. They think they know what their client wants.
In my experience PHD, especially mathematician only good in dealing room. And then even some cannot succeed because no EQ. Too smart, no one else understand them or can communicate with them. These people too academic and not in touch with real world.
They are very smart and very articulate, no doubt. I don't deny. But the problem is my customers are not PHDs. They are normal people. In this world, customer is always right :). I need them to be able to communicate with normal people. :). I have not come across a successful sales person who is a PHD. Maybe my world too small.
But if you already made up your mind, why you ask me in the first place??? -
Dnls_mum:
Dnls_mom :
Nothing is fair in this world. It never is and it never will be. I try to make the best of what I have and hope for the same for my kids. My worry is with FTs squeezing out our native Singaporeans. No other country in the world is as liberal as ours with immigration. If this trend does not reverse, change what education system, do what accellerated path also no use. We have bigger problems in this country.
\"Those who are too smart think they know everything and do not listen to what their clients really want. They think they know what their client wants.\"
\"And then even some cannot succeed because no EQ. Too smart, no one else understand them or can communicate with them. These people too academic and not in touch with real world.\"
\"I need them to be able to communicate with normal people.\"
You have raised all the valid points and I hope our education system will produce people with the desirable qualities who can think of practical, comprehensive, yet out of the box ideas for the country or in any profession they are in. Then we don't have to worry many other things like FT as you mentioned ?
On a separate note, I was reading about kiasu being our \"value\" now (\"Being 'kiasu' is top value in Singapore society, survey finds\") , I was thinking we didn't grow up with that value system. Maybe it was more like we have nothing to lose then rather than scared to lose in the past that propelled some of us to achieve unimaginable achievements for ourselves and for our country ? And I hope we can keep that magical and powerful spirit. -
cherryc:
I sincerely hope so too.
Dnls_mom :Dnls_mum:
Nothing is fair in this world. It never is and it never will be. I try to make the best of what I have and hope for the same for my kids. My worry is with FTs squeezing out our native Singaporeans. No other country in the world is as liberal as ours with immigration. If this trend does not reverse, change what education system, do what accellerated path also no use. We have bigger problems in this country.
\"Those who are too smart think they know everything and do not listen to what their clients really want. They think they know what their client wants.\"
\"And then even some cannot succeed because no EQ. Too smart, no one else understand them or can communicate with them. These people too academic and not in touch with real world.\"
\"I need them to be able to communicate with normal people.\"
You have raised all the valid points and I hope our education system will produce people with the desirable qualities who can think of practical, comprehensive, yet out of the box ideas for the country or in any profession they are in. Then we don't have to worry many other things like FT as you mentioned ?
On a separate note, I was reading about kiasu being our \"value\" now (\"Being 'kiasu' is top value in Singapore society, survey finds\") , I was thinking we didn't grow up with that value system. Maybe it was more like we have nothing to lose then rather than scared to lose in the past that propelled some of us to achieve unimaginable achievements for ourselves and for our country ? And I hope we can keep that inexplicable spirit.
And I think parents play a part too. We have a choice how we want to bring up our kids. 10 tuitions? It is a personal choice Cannot just blame the system.
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2ppaamm:
Thanks for replying. I understand from your point of views. I will try my best to put my point across. (I am better in talking than writing when comes to express my thought.) The reason why I post this question is that somewhere in this thread, someone mentioned that too much resources have already been poured into GEP programme and sort of expect some kind of output/result from them in the long term. In my dd's class, there are quite a few of PR kids and I have nothing against them. Well, it just that during one of the coversation when one of the mummy shared that her dd would go oversea where she can get free education if she does not want to continue sec school in Singapore. (US citizen) I sort of huh.... what if after all the gep education, these kids just left Singapore and the question I asked myself is : Is it justify to 'invest' in them in GEP from Singaporean point of view? Or is it better to have more Singaporean benefiting from this programme? If this is off topic here, please ignore.comfy:
I have a questoin : Is Gep still necessary if most of the geppers are PR?
My thinking is towards identifying and giving an enriched program to the gifted and HA are necessarily, but should not be restricted to one group identified at P3, and should be continually revisited. They should also be expected to perform academically well (they are chosen for academic reasons), and all should have a chance at enrichment program as and when they are ready. There should not be a differentiated group (like a class of GEPpers), but groups of students pulled out from a standard class of bigger variance in abilities (notice I didn't say mixed), and pulled out for their areas of interest and strengths. That does not mean a child can only be pulled out for only one subject. Everyone should master the base curriculum first and then be enriched. Hence, nobody should be given extra benefit at PSLE, or DSA.
Given that, my stand is the same whether or not PRs are involved. For me, these are different policies. One involves migration, another involves education. If the imigration department decides that a family/person deserves a PR, the duty of the education department is to ensure this family/person receives an equal opportunity in education. -
cherryc:
:goodpost:In a wide-ranging interview with former GIC chief economist Yeoh Lam Keong, Yahoo! Singapore’s JEANETTE TAN finds out what he thinks are the key challenges Singapore faces in its quest for continued economic development. This is the second of a three-part series entitled “Behind Singapore Inc.” that takes a look at the country’s key policies and governance. In Part II interview :
The real cost of education
Turning to Singapore’s education system which is heavily subsidised, Yeoh said the cost of private tuition is skewing matters out of whack.
Currently, a Singaporean child going through government-aided mainstream schools pays roughly $11 per month at primary school level, about $21 at secondary school, and about $27 per month at junior college or at a centralised institute.
Even at university level, Singaporean and permanent resident (PR) students attending local university courses benefit greatly from substantive grants provided by the Ministry of Education.
But these benign fee structures mask the real cost of schooling in Singapore when one takes in the cost of private tuition, says Yeoh.
“If you have a kid who has tuition in two or three subjects, that easily costs close to $1,000 (per month) or often even much more,” he says. “A lot of people also feel that at primary 6, they need to send their kids for tuition in three to four core subjects, so that adds up to more than $1,500 per month, perhaps even $2,000.”
But is private tuition really necessary?
Yeoh argues it is because of two key reasons — first, because of insufficient teaching resources for what is becoming an unnecessarily difficult curriculum and second, because class sizes are too large.
Making matters worse is the various possible paths in primary and secondary education alone — from the gifted programme to the through-train, and a wide range of elective programmes offered at secondary and junior college level.
It is no wonder parents become “kiasu” to ensure their children get the best opportunities and the most choices, said Yeoh.
His solution? Cut down class sizes and do away with unnecessary streaming.
“This would require higher education expenditure, but it will be less stressful for both students and teachers, and (the former) can actually be taught in school instead of at home (through tuition),” he adds, pointing out that the average OECD country spends about 6 per cent of its GDP on education, as compared to Singapore, which spends roughly 3.8 per cent.
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/behind-singapore-inc--part-ii---%E2%80%98gov%E2%80%99t-must-rethink-delivery-of-public-services%E2%80%99.html
Awaiting his In Part III of “Behind Singapore Inc.”, Yeoh reflects on the changing personality of the ruling People’s Action Party and its leaders. -
2ppaamm:
上梁不正下梁歪， a leader who thinks that he is of an elite race, and that he is not even apologetic about having these views cannot expect his officials to think otherwise. Such leaders are great people, and they do do wonderful and great things, but some are sick in the head, that's why people believe there is a thin line between being a genius and a lunatic, who btw are all forever paranoid. Sadly, such thinking filters down. :yikes: Hitler lives! Thank God we only have an intellectual gas chamber.mummy so kiasu:
[quote=\"Chenonceau\"]I've never quite forgiven this governmentt for bringing in the casinos despite gathering feedback... hearing people out... and then still going right ahead. I suppose it's gonna do it again in the new Dialogue on National Values... and what we want Singapore to become.
Talk... talk... talk... and then... oh well... WE think this is best... WE know best... WE are smart, gifted, scholars, had perfect grades and therefore also perfect thinking (YOU... where were YOU when I collected my perfect A level cert and served as President of my JC's student council... and lounged around the fireplace at Cambridge?). So... thank you for giving your 2 cents, I will now tell you that THIS is what we will do... you people of inferior intellect.
And what they do will be exactly what they wanted to do BEFORE all the
National Dialogue. :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:[/
:goodpost: What you mention is true. Last election outcome reflected the unhappiness of Singaporeans. High costs of education (tuition, enrichment & university) & stressful education system leads to decline in birth rate. Even baby bonus can't help!
[/quote]Wow, you are too modest about your Chinese!
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[quote=\"chamonix\"]That is why my son has been begging me and trying his luck every week to take him out of school. He said he can learn much more and faster at home, and still has lots of time to laze around.
I had homeschooled my two elder kids till P3, I must say both, (homeschool and mainstream school) have their pros and cons. Homeschool, kids naturally will learn more and faster; but Mum was really tired, so I gave up when NO4 DS was born. My children enjoy both lah, but they like school more because they can play their sports, soccer in the school team. So I guess, 鱼和熊掌难以兼得乎！ -
Chenonceau:
Oh, Chen, I love your sharing. :love: You are sure clever! Yes, no matter what difficulty we encounter, we can make a difference not by waiting for Govt, or other's aid, but by our own. It is actually our INDIVIDUAL decision to make a difference. :salute:I have noticed that the pool of parents who vocally defend the educational system with \"I think the system largely works, but of course, can be improved because nothing is perfect\" is comprised of a statistical OVER-representation of
(1) parents with GEP kids... with a few vocal parents of HAT kids who are taught GEP (some, if not all) stuff anyway.
(2) parents of kids in lower primary doing well in schools (in years where schools haven't yet upped the stakes)
It is hard to tell from the postings whether the \"system\" these parents defend is the GEP-HAT system and its attendant privileges OR whether these parents generalize their own positive experience with education to all of mainstream (and to upper primary). If the system that you defend is the GEP-HAT system, then I have nothing to say. Parents are happy with that system. Kids seem to be taught well regardless of family background. So, it MUST work rather well. For that we have to give MOE credit.
They're doing a good job with 1.5% of the student population. That is good. Let's keep that. At least there is something good.
If, however, GEP-HAT parents speak of \"system\" as encompassing the entire system including mainstreamers and normal stream, THEN let me respectfully ask that the 2 systems be separated and analyzed differently.
Whilst we speak up in defense of this group or that group of children, let us not forget that as adults of this nation, we are custodians of every other child in every other group. Our precious 1% or even 10% cannot survive if confronted with the ill will of 90% of the population... ESPECIALLY when you go out into real life. The feelings, thoughts and well-being of the other 90% matters to the survival and thrival of 10% of top people.
Necessarily, people have had different life experiences. If your child goes to a school where Science is taught through hands-on experimentation every week, then the reality of the child who is being taught Science from the Science textbook ONLY, is far removed from your experience. You will find it hard to relate to that reality because you have not experienced it.
Our first car was a Suzuki Swift. We drove the car for so long that my 2 kids experienced the back seat as a daily sauna treatment. My husband had never sat anywhere but the driver's seat. As a wife, I am inclined to believe that there is no kinder nor more compassionate man than the one I married. Yet, for perfectly GOOD reason (i.e., to be frugal), my husband REFUSED to get a bigger car for a now larger family (including in-laws). One day, I engineered a situation where HE had to sit in the back seat. He got out of the car 45 minutes later, his shirt sopping wet.
The next weekend, we bought a new car. We could afford it... and a much larger one at that BUT that is not the way of this family. We value \"frugality\" and \"being contented with what is enough\". However, until my husband realized that what he thought was ENOUGH was actually far below ENOUGH because every single trip in that small car with the half-strength air-conditioner was like being locked up in a tupperware for his kids, his value of FRUGALITY took precedence.
The one in the driver seat (i.e., my husband), who had never experienced the cooped-up-the-tupperware feeling can say \"Money doesn't grow on trees (i.e., insufficient resources). We cannot afford a newer and better car\"... and he would get up on his moral high horse to preach contentment and fiscal prudence. We upheld these values to the extent where a hotel attendant absolutely refused to allow our tiny car to get into the VIP lot allotted to us because he couldn't believe any VIP would be driving such a small and old car.
My husband could go on for 10 minutes on how important it was to teach the children contentment and frugality. No one could say he was wrong. So... I tricked him into the back seat of our 8 year old Suzuki Swift with Grandpa and 2 children... took the long circuitous route from Woodlands to Katong.... purposely got lost twice. Arrived at destination after about 45 minutes. Then The Husband shut his mouth about \"not enough resources (i.e., money) and learning to be content.
You see, he too loved our children and the moment he experienced their reality, he could not bear to NOT do anything. This is where I am on the topic of education. I cannot bear not to say anything.
DS PSLE Prelim results were eventually
- 1st in class for English (a boy who score 9/20 in compo in P3)
- 2nd in class for Science
- Amongst top 7 for Math (a boy who was amongst the last in class in Math in P3)
- Dunno yet about Chinese but should be slightly above average in the 2nd best class
He got these results because I begged, borrowed and created learning materials for him to learn from. I KNOW there are schools that teach well. But I cannot accept that just because SOME schools teach well, that parents say the system works barring some refinements. HOW MANY schools teach well? Even if ONE school does not teach well, do we not have the right to ask for better teaching... or for an inquiry?
Of course, there are those who say \"it doesn't matter\". Those with poor grades can also make it in life. Really? Based on the outliers highlighted in MSM you conclude so? Take a random sample of ITE grads and a random sample of Uni grads. Calculate the mean income. You think you will find parity? Education does not matter?
I am willing to accept my child no matter the intellect. If after all that I have done, my Little Boy stayed resolutely at the bottom of the class, I know he is intellectually challenged. But that was not the case. My Little Boy climbed from zero to hero (without tuition) after I decided to top him up on learning materials and taught him how to do self-directed independent learning.
This is not a problem that can wait for MOE to SLOWLY resolve. Every day, hundreds(?)... thousands (?) of mainstream children get the intellectual sardines-in-tupperware feeling in classes of 40-45.... and constrained access to the wealth of learning material they need to maximize their potential in view of the new syllabus.
Yeah... yeah... change takes time. It's easy to say that when you are not the sardine in the tupperware. When I write this, I am not trying to pass judgment on the fellow forummers whom I have grown to esteem and respect. I am just hoping that more people will understand where Pam is coming from.
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