Is GEP really necessary?
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Pam, you evil evil evil… But ummm… I think was after.
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Chenonceau:
I need to be careful here in order not to mislead. I am no expert. I can only share my own experience. Pam is a better person to answer your question. The following is a very very tentative answer.jtoh:
Hi Chen,
Thanks for sharing. Can you help me with the following scenario.
Student A & Student B both have equally excellent A level results, sporting and leadership achievements etc. Student A is from RI/HCI. Student B from a less academically competitive school. Student A is an above average student in RI/HCI, but not the top student. Student B is a top student in this average school.
Does that mean that Student B will be offered a place in Cambridge, Oxford, Princeton, Harvard and the like over Student A? Has this actually happened, ie a student like Student B was offered a place in Oxbridge and the Ivy Leagues this year?
What if Student B has less outstanding A level results, sporting achievement etc compared to Student A but is still the top student in his less competitive school. Will he still be viewed more favorably than Student A by these top universities?
Thanks.
Question A
Student A & Student B both have equally excellent A level results, sporting and leadership achievements etc. Student A is from RI/HCI. Student B from a less academically competitive school. Student A is an above average student in RI/HCI, but not the top student. Student B is a top student in this average school.
If the 2 students are EQUAL in every respect, then yes... I think the one from the less academically inclined school will pip the other. Why? The one from RI had differential input (from the school) than the one from the less academically inclined school. The one from RI (Student A) had access to better quality, and more of it. Therefore, Student A should have achieved more than parity with Student B. This system is more fair than our PSLE where we only look at t-score even whilst we KNOW that different schools have differential input.
The only way the Ivy Leagues can assess with a view to differential INPUT is to take the pinnacle from every school. I do know a girl from NJC that got to Stanford. Pinnacle in NJC. Now... there are some who will say that Stanford isn't really the top, but that is the only example I have for this. Oh yes... I also know a young man in Harvard now from St Andrew's Junior College. He could have made RI/RJC but his mother (a school principal) chose to put him in St Andrew's instead. He too was pinnacle in SAJC. BUT this boy missed out on every PSC scholarship because PSC looks at RAW BEST and disregards differential input.
If you read this article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2154243/Teen-goes-sleeping-park-benches-Harvard-dorm-room-years-homeless.html) it may become clear that Harvard does not take in the absolute RAW BEST. They take in the BEST of whatever social/educational circumstances the student came from. Do you think that a girl who slept on park benches can have won all the prized at sport my girl won... or the research awards... or published a book? I doubt. However, the girl reached somewhere WAY beyond what one would normally expect from a HOMELESS person.
I have also heard that Harvard takes in people with somewhat poorer results too. Squash players, gymnasts etc... because Harvard wants exceptional talent in diverse areas. If you are world seeded or have a mother like Amy Chua (AND good results because Tiger Sophia was also valedictorian)... are a famous actress (with good results)... that counts too. Ivy Leagues don't want cookies. They want unique individuals. Our formula where we give opportunities to everyone in the same JC doesn't quite work because all the CVs look the same when they get there... CIP, VP, Silver, Gold.... blah blah blah... Watch the movie \"21\" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0478087/) and pay special attention to the main character's scholarship interview. It gives you a small small taste of what Harvard looks for EVEN IF you're just looking at Harvard admission not scholarship.
For us, I KNEW... many years ago... and I did tell DD that she should eschew the opportunities provided by the school and create her own niche outside. Some students do that. One had such a vibrant life OUTSIDE the JCs choreographing dance. He made quite a name for himself... was LAST in GEP all his life (according to him) but Harvard took him. He was THAT good in the dance scene and of course, turned in his distinctions (or pretty much).
I have known this for many years. I tried to guide my DD towards a more distinctive portfolio BUT she had other ideas. I backed off. I don't really mind non Ivy League you see so I didn't put in much effort to motivate and convince. At some point, a Mom has to respect the child's autonomy and since I didn't think she would damage her future in any way, I did not insist. Added to that, I consoled myself that learning to blend in was far more important in the long run.
I let it go.
Question B
What if Student B has less outstanding A level results, sporting achievement etc compared to Student A but is still the top student in his less competitive school. Will he still be viewed more favorably than Student A by these top universities?
I don't know the answer to this question but perhaps, you can project the answer from what I wrote above?
Hope this helps
Thanks so much, Chen, for sharing your insights. Much appreciated.
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My kids met many ACS, MGS & SCGS kids in top overseas universities. Not sure if wealth or parent being an alumni has any impact. Interestingly these kids are also very smart though their A level results are not perfect scores.
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Re Tiger Sophia. An example of all roads lead to Romvard. :evil:
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Chenonceau:
Hi, Chan, thanks for sharing, like Pam, you are another wonderful mum who generously shares your expertise. I am sure many here will benefit tremendously from your wisdom.
For us, I KNEW... many years ago... and I did tell DD that she should eschew the opportunities provided by the school and create her own niche outside. Some students do that. One had such a vibrant life OUTSIDE the JCs choreographing dance. He made quite a name for himself... was LAST in GEP all his life (according to him) but Harvard took him. He was THAT good in the dance scene and of course, turned in his distinctions (or pretty much).
I have known this for many years. I tried to guide my DD towards a more distinctive portfolio BUT she had other ideas. I backed off. I don't really mind non Ivy League you see so I didn't put in much effort to motivate and convince. At some point, a Mom has to respect the child's autonomy and since I didn't think she would damage her future in any way, I did not insist. Added to that, I consoled myself that learning to blend in was far more important in the long run.
I let it go.
Hope this helps
I like what you did, to respect a child, and his/her choice of life. :thankyou: -
atutor2001:
My kids met many ACS, MGS & SCGS kids in top overseas universities. Not sure if wealth or parent being an alumni has any impact. Interestingly these kids are also very smart though their A level results are not perfect scores.
What is it that they know that others don't? Don't need perfect 'A' levels score. In fact, perfect scores are sterile to some extent.
Tell a little story about this fresh graduate. His GPA is ridiculous, 4.0 or perfect. To top it, he had a perfect A+ for like 90% of his subject. If there were a 4.3 GPA, he would have come close to that. Unfortunately, he did not get a job offer while his classmates of lower GPA all had offers of $4000+ (he was from the highest paid faculty). He couldn't understand why, went for numerous interviews and all rejected him. In the end, he accepted the only job offer of $1,900.
Looking at his achievements on the resume, you can understand why. He is too one-dimensional. Excellent student, straight As all the way from primary school onwards, good CCAs, and score whatever he needs to score, but he does not stand out other than his academic results. What he needed was to show that he has something to contribute to an organization other than just academic brains. It is about the ability to lead, to bring diversity to an organization (or a university) that people want. Not your scholastic achievement. To be honest, a 3.8 GPA is no different from a 4.0 GPA. If a child spent so much time working on that perfect score, and missed out other aspects, then he is not a valuable person in the university, or in the society.
There will be people with perfect scores, but who can show that they did not spend all their lives just working on that. Their involvement in the society, their backgrounds, their ability to work with people, their contributions and their leadership qualities are what we are looking for. And, you can plan and plan and still not get there. Why? Because it has to come from the heart. And people miss that out. Parents do too much for their kids to let them do things from the heart. Schools do too much for kids to do things from the heart.
Another story. This is like a really average student. His GPA is nothing more than 3.6 in Poly. But this boy is so unique. He started a company, but it failed. He took time off (with his parents' approval) from school and used his skills to help a social enterprise. He does things free for charity organizations because he saw a need. He put all that down on his resume. He went to a top uni.
I don't know if you get my point. It does not mean you don't work hard, we should. If my kid can do a perfect score with ENOUGH effort, I'd say go for it! But I'll never squeeze every ounce from them to get there because it is what the system tells me to. I have found that my kids are rewarded as a result. Not necessarily by the Singapore system, but my universe is much bigger than that. And all ours should be. Singapore is a global city, and more and more foreigners are coming in...if we do not realize. Often, we are led to chase after unimportant things and forget to bring the best out of our kids. The paper chase has gone too far. Our kids are asked to do things like CIP hours with no meaning attached. They do them grudgingly and these do not add one bit to their well-being or credentials. It is expensive to bring up a gifted child, of course, but it is expensive to bring up any kind of child. Problem is, with so much resources poured into it, our gifted children are still not having any advantage in the world, or scored any stunning achievement as adults. Got to ask ourselves why.
But it is a complex problem, and I don't pretend I have an answer. Just bringing them up here since there are so many very bright people here with varied experiences to share.
Also, smart does not equate A level score, PSLE score or GEP selection. There are many factors to do well in such tests, we keep forgetting. Some people know not to chase after the distractions, and go for the 'real' things. :evil: -
2ppaamm:
:goodpost: :thankyou:atutor2001:
My kids met many ACS, MGS & SCGS kids in top overseas universities. Not sure if wealth or parent being an alumni has any impact. Interestingly these kids are also very smart though their A level results are not perfect scores.
What is it that they know that others don't? Don't need perfect 'A' levels score. In fact, perfect scores are sterile to some extent.
Tell a little story about this fresh graduate. His GPA is ridiculous, 4.0 or perfect. To top it, he had a perfect A+ for like 90% of his subject. If there were a 4.3 GPA, he would have come close to that. Unfortunately, he did not get a job offer while his classmates of lower GPA all had offers of $4000+ (he was from the highest paid faculty). He couldn't understand why, went for numerous interviews and all rejected him. In the end, he accepted the only job offer of $1,900.
Looking at his achievements on the resume, you can understand why. He is too one-dimensional. Excellent student, straight As all the way from primary school onwards, good CCAs, and score whatever he needs to score, but he does not stand out other than his academic results. What he needed was to show that he has something to contribute to an organization other than just academic brains. It is about the ability to lead, to bring diversity to an organization (or a university) that people want. Not your scholastic achievement. To be honest, a 3.8 GPA is no different from a 4.0 GPA. If a child spent so much time working on that perfect score, and missed out other aspects, then he is not a valuable person in the university, or in the society.
There will be people with perfect scores, but who can show that they did not spend all their lives just working on that. Their involvement in the society, their backgrounds, their ability to work with people, their contributions and their leadership qualities are what we are looking for. And, you can plan and plan and still not get there. Why? Because it has to come from the heart. And people miss that out. Parents do too much for their kids to let them do things from the heart. Schools do too much for kids to do things from the heart.
Another story. This is like a really average student. His GPA is nothing more than 3.6 in Poly. But this boy is so unique. He started a company, but it failed. He took time off (with his parents' approval) from school and used his skills to help a social enterprise. He does things free for charity organizations because he saw a need. He put all that down on his resume. He went to a top uni.
I don't know if you get my point. It does not mean you don't work hard, we should. If my kid can do a perfect score with ENOUGH effort, I'd say go for it! But I'll never squeeze every ounce from them to get there because it is what the system tells me to. I have found that my kids are rewarded as a result. Not necessarily by the Singapore system, but my universe is much bigger than that. And all ours should be. Singapore is a global city, and more and more foreigners are coming in...if we do not realize. Often, we are led to chase after unimportant things and forget to bring the best out of our kids. The paper chase has gone too far. Our kids are asked to do things like CIP hours with no meaning attached. They do them grudgingly and these do not add one bit to their well-being or credentials. It is expensive to bring up a gifted child, of course, but it is expensive to bring up any kind of child. Problem is, with so much resources poured into it, our gifted children are still not having any advantage in the world, or scored any stunning achievement as adults. Got to ask ourselves why.
But it is a complex problem, and I don't pretend I have an answer. Just bringing them up here since there are so many very bright people here with varied experiences to share.
Also, smart does not equate A level score, PSLE score or GEP selection. There are many factors to do well in such tests, we keep forgetting. Some people know not to chase after the distractions, and go for the 'real' things. :evil: -
atutor2001:
My kids met many ACS, MGS & SCGS kids in top overseas universities. Not sure if wealth or parent being an alumni has any impact. Interestingly these kids are also very smart though their A level results are not perfect scores.
I would like to see it as an affluent kinda of thing...ie, you can afford to make more mistakes n not straddle by the burden that u need to get it right the 1st time.
Well, that's just one possibility.
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Nebbermind:
And probably a very clever guess.atutor2001:
My kids met many ACS, MGS & SCGS kids in top overseas universities. Not sure if wealth or parent being an alumni has any impact. Interestingly these kids are also very smart though their A level results are not perfect scores.
I would like to see it as an affluent kinda of thing...ie, you can afford to make more mistakes n not straddle by the burden that u need to get it right the 1st time.
Well, that's just one possibility.
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2ppaamm:
Coz our system is too focus on intelligence, n not wisdom. Look at some of the remarks by our leaders :roll:Problem is, with so much resources poured into it, our gifted children are still not having any advantage in the world, or scored any stunning achievement as adults. Got to ask ourselves why.
You can only go that far with intelligence!
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