Population woes
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mum_sugoku:
It's not that simple. Please avoid drawing superficial conclusions, just from the property price index you over the last 2 decades you will see that the correlation of population and property prices is a poor one. I wrote a post on that earlier in this thread.
It' s demand and supply. If supply can't keep up with demand, price will still go up.. Can the increase in housing suply keep up with the increase in population?3Boys:
Yes, I understand what you are saying. Population density is one driver for property prices, but not the only one, and if I may say so, not even the most important one. -
3Boys:
It's not that simple. Please avoid drawing superficial conclusions, just from the property price index you over the last 2 decades you will see that the correlation of population and property prices is a poor one. I wrote a post on that earlier in this thread.[/quote]The property \"bubble\"?
It' s demand and supply. If supply can't keep up with demand, price will still go up.. Can the increase in housing suply keep up with the increase in population?mum_sugoku:
[quote=\"3Boys\"]
Yes, I understand what you are saying. Population density is one driver for property prices, but not the only one, and if I may say so, not even the most important one.
But what causes the \"bubble\" in the first place? Could it be that bubble started to form at a time when supply was unable to keep up with the rise in population?
Anyway even if the bubble does burst, as long as the supply cannot meet demand, price will still go up, again. -
limlim:
ask that company to fo to the land that invents the invisible gun?pirate:
[quote=\"Dora1\"] I am saying similar policies, can't the million dollar ministers and quarter million senior servants tweak it to SG context? Special skill could be chef, carpenter, plumber, construction builders? And for jobs like cleaners, if they advertised for x number of weeks with a pay higher than the min wage, then they allowed to hire FWs if no SCs respond. There are countries with similar policies. Bottom line is, look at what Singaporeans want and what the businesses need.
Position Open:
Inhouse IT specialist
Well-versed in C++, SQL and Java
5 years experience
Must be able to communicate fluently in Tagalog with support staff in Manila
Why is that company even here in the first place?
Replace that company with another that have support staff locally.[/quote]I think this summarizes the views of those advocating more protection for PMEs succinctly. Tell the company to fo off Singapore. Who cares whether the company employs 50 other Singaporeans in operations? So long as it prefers to hire one FT in a PME position I want, that company should not be in Singapore. -
limlim:
I am very disturbed that a significant number of apparently highly educated Singaporean PMEs appear to have no idea what makes Singapore attractive to foreign companies to set up operations here. Apparently what I said earlier went in one ear and out the other:
You've said it.. They move despite the availability of FT, so that is not the reason at all!3Boys:
I don't get you.
Some are moving away despite having availability of foreign labour, so we should exacerbate and chase the rest away by completely closing the supply?
What of our industries? Close shop? Decamp?
It will be worse without!
Close the supply so what? it's not that there is NO supply of workforce. They can source from local workforce.
They should learn to be lean, and review their process so as to make do with less, but skilled workers, to run the operations. They can pay more to attract talented locals, w/o necessarily incurring excessive costs as they do with less workers.
It requires effort, of course. But it adds value to overall society.
In essence, if they move, there'll be 1001 reasons. They can get skilled workers in that whatever host country, why would they set up camp there and then import FTs? doesn't makes sense.. isn't it? Like LPPL.
But those that will not move, will try means and ways to get FT to lower the costs and make more profits, when FT is actually not crucial to their survival.pirate:
If anybody thinks (1) political stability, (2) clear rule of law and (3) a business friendly government are easily built, they should just look around us. Has it ever occurred to them that perhaps our \"million dollar ministers and quarter million senior [civil] servants\" may have had something to do with it?If the SME's business can be upgraded through innovation or investment, then it can be upgraded in JB as well. We used to have a significant advantage in infrastructure, but this is being eroded, as is our advantage of having an English speaking workforce. The primary advantages Singapore has now is just political stability, clear rule of law and a business friendly government.
Our advantages are not immutable. They are not permanent. They are not a god-given right. And they are fragile.
I guarantee you that if Singapore were to pass a law requiring all MNCs to employ only Singaporean PMEs in their Singapore operations, not a single one of them will come, and at least 95% of those that are in Singapore will decamp within 5 years. And if we were then to reverse that law, it will take another 20 years before they give us the benefit of the doubt that we won't pull that sort of stunt again.
It has been some 15 years since Malaysia imposed capital controls and the CLOB saga. They have still not managed to fully restore their credibility with foreign investors. We do not have the luxury of offshore oil and huge tracts of plantations to dig us out of that kind of hole.
I have a much simpler test when it comes to assessing whether the people I vote for are doing the best job they can. I look at the colour and quantity of hair they have before and after assuming office. If their hair turn white and drop off relatively quickly, then I am reasonably satisfied that they are trying hard. If they grow fat and look more youthful, then I know they are in office to fatten their wallets. So far, I reasonably satisfied with the pirate hair test
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This is an interesting article on population issue.
http://www.tremeritus.com/2012/10/14/is-population-growth-a-ponzi-scheme/
You can make your own judgement after reading. -
lim72:
Very tangential (as low relevance) to this current thrust of this particular discussion. Does population growth impose greater demands on the environment? Clearly yes, but 1) Singapore is tiny, making up less than 1/1000th of humanity, 2) the sore point here is about taking in new imports, which does not increase nett global population.This is an interesting article on population issue.
http://www.tremeritus.com/2012/10/14/is-population-growth-a-ponzi-scheme/
You can make your own judgement after reading. -
[quote]Instead of presuming that the population must increase to sustain the economy, can we also consider alternative economic models that suit a lower, more comfortable population density?[/quote]
That was the thrust of this discussion.
My view is, sure we can consider. But what are the sacrifices we are prepared to make as individuals on such a shift to an \"alternate economic model\"?
Me? I am in favour of considering an economic model that is less dependent on cheap unskilled foreign labour. That means tightening (not eliminating) the import of unskilled foreign labour. I am prepared to have to pay more for services the costs of which have been kept low by the import of unskilled foreign workers, such as cleaning, maintenance, public transport, hawker centre food etc. If necessary, I am prepared to have to pay more tax for the government to assist those low income families that are affected by the resulting increased costs.
However, I am not satisfied with these kinds of answers:
(1) There won't be any sacrifices. Our million dollar ministers should be able to come up with a cost-free solution.
(2) Let those SMEs that cannot adapt move out... Which in my view translates to \"I am not willing to make sacrifices. Let the other people (who work in those SMEs) make the sacrifices.\" -
pirate:
that is skewed reasoning.
(2) Let those SMEs that cannot adapt move out... Which in my view translates to \"I am not willing to make sacrifices. Let the other people (who work in those SMEs) make the sacrifices.\"
If FTs are restricted to those real talents that can add value to the company,
either
1) The locals get better pay as he may cover higher responsibility or more duties.
2) The company benefits in the long run as they need to invest in efforts for more efficient running.
Also, you did not address the issue of companies who do not rely on FT but take the opportunity to hired FT at low cost when they can well afford to hired a local. The only reason? profit. Not survival.
And, you talked about companies with 50 locals and 1 FT moving out.. which is BS. More likely, the companies that are affected are those that employ 50FTs and 1 local. Are these companies add any significant value to local economy? -
If there is no robust measures to address Fraud, the import of FTs should be tightened and controlled until adequate measures are in place.
Maybe impose quota for EP also. Like 5 local staff for every FT. So the companies can still employ FTs if they are required to fulfil a specific role, but still ensure employment of local staff. This is better than just the income requirement. -
I may not agree that increase of population is a direct immediate cause for the rapid increase in property price. My counter examples are Hong Kong, Taipei and other major asian cities which also see a huge appreciation of property price but these cities, unlike Singapore, have much lower immigration than Singapore.
However, I do agree that an increase in population density has decrease the living quality. I also agree that certain sacrifices need to be made if we do not want to depend too much on population growth and a higher living cost maybe acceptable.
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