Population woes
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If there is no robust measures to address Fraud, the import of FTs should be tightened and controlled until adequate measures are in place.
Maybe impose quota for EP also. Like 5 local staff for every FT. So the companies can still employ FTs if they are required to fulfil a specific role, but still ensure employment of local staff. This is better than just the income requirement. -
I may not agree that increase of population is a direct immediate cause for the rapid increase in property price. My counter examples are Hong Kong, Taipei and other major asian cities which also see a huge appreciation of property price but these cities, unlike Singapore, have much lower immigration than Singapore.
However, I do agree that an increase in population density has decrease the living quality. I also agree that certain sacrifices need to be made if we do not want to depend too much on population growth and a higher living cost maybe acceptable. -
limlim:
Hi limlim,
that is skewed reasoning.pirate:
(2) Let those SMEs that cannot adapt move out... Which in my view translates to \"I am not willing to make sacrifices. Let the other people (who work in those SMEs) make the sacrifices.\"
If FTs are restricted to those real talents that can add value to the company,
either
1) The locals get better pay as he may cover higher responsibility or more duties.
2) The company benefits in the long run as they need to invest in efforts for more efficient running.
Also, you did not address the issue of companies who do not rely on FT but take the opportunity to hired FT at low cost when they can well afford to hired a local. The only reason? profit. Not survival.
And, you talked about companies with 50 locals and 1 FT moving out.. which is BS. More likely, the companies that are affected are those that employ 50FTs and 1 local. Are these companies add any significant value to local economy?
not sure if you remember me from another thread (I am a PR for 7 years, 12 years in total in Singapore, but the first 5 years as an EP holder).
on pt . # 1. i could agree on this.. however not all locals actually want more responsibilities. actually most (both foreigners and locals alike), want higher pay, without the additional responsibilities. but yeah, I guess no one could stop you from getting what you want if you do agree to get more responsibilities.. the higher the privelege the higher the responsibility.
on pt #2. could'nt agree more, I would rather hire 1 person who is highly skilled and productive, than hire 2 persons who barely meet the daily quota of number of hours of bums hitting the seats. lower overhead and lesser time required for people management.
about companies hiring FTs at lower cost (FTs in the true sense of the word \"talent\").. am not sure if this is true, at least probably not TRUE for the companies I worked for. Most often than not, hiring FTs (specially non-PR) prove to be more expensive, as we need to pay for levy and also there is a higher premium for hiring FTs due to the salary range required to get an EP... if our candidates would earn less than $3,200 sgd for example, we cannot get a Q1 pass for him/her.. so we have to make the job profile really \"meaty\" to ensure we are getting the best hire for the \"buck\" that we have to pay. (by the way, all of the companies I worked for does not hire work permit holder.. it has to be at least EP holder). Now, we do advertise our requirements through the best headhunters, but it is also a mystery to me, why the percentage of local candidates to FT candidates are very low. perhaps locals do not like IT hands-on job? they only want managerial or financial jobs? I dont know for sure.. all I know is that we would have preferred to hire locals due to lower cost of acquisition (not necessary lower salary to either local or FT-- as salary is always commensurate to experience, skills, competence and overall attitude)...its just that we really have to pay additional levy for foreigners.
Most of our professional headhunters are locals too, however, again our ration of local candidates to foreign candidates most often than not is about 3:7 (and I can say this is fairly accurate at least for my current company as am the one counting heads remember?)...so the likelihood that a foreign candidate would get the role is higher.. as there are more foreign candidates to choose from.. and to be honest, our hiring managers are mostly ang mohs, and they are the ones requesting for more local talents.. but to our dismay we always get lower number of c andidates?? does locals snub our company? if yes, where do you usually go for technology jobs? does locals dislike IT jobs? if yes, what kind of jobs you prefer? how can we make locals like you be more interested in IT jobs in an MNC environment? in one of my lunch talk with my khakis, most of them locals, they say that they normally associate IT jobs to Filipinos and Indians.. and a few sprinkling of China chinese migrants... what does it mean? you dont wanna be associate with Filipinos/Indians/China migrants? seriously.. am interested to know....
In terms of the true sense of the word \"talent\" regardless local or foreigner..
quote from:
http://www.hci.org/blog/what-talent#.UHqzoOGyZp8
If we take a more practical approach to talent in business, we might define talent as “anything that predisposes an individual to success in a position or organization.” Said another way, talent is situational. It is something you don’t have to learn that will give you a natural advantage towards being successful in a specific situation. Defined this way, a trait may be considered a talent in one situation and not another (i.e. being 7 feet tall is a talent in basketball but not in flying fighter jets). I’m not suggesting that you have to have talent to be successful in a role, but that having talent will mean that you are starting with an advantage. If I have a position on my team that requires heavy interaction with people, hiring someone who has the talent of an outgoing personality would certainly make for an easier path to success than hiring an introvert. Conversely, that outgoing personality may not be a talent if I was hiring for a computer programmer.
based on the above, if I would take myself as a case study, I dont have any special skill (everyone can finish and engineering degree), am not even part of the top 10% of my class, when I became a training manager, I wasnt promoted from being a trainer to a manager, because I was a good trainer.. nah! I was a mediocre trainer.. but being raised in a \"chaotic\" environment probably predisposes me to be excellent in dealing with ambigous situations.. now being able to deal with ambigous situations is important for companies starting up or companies who just created a new role or new department.. I would be considered a \"talent\" for those type of situations.. but put me on a team that requires rigidly following rules (e.g. compliance).. you will find me very bored, demotivated and unproductive.. therefore I will not be considered a \"talent\" in that situation/team.
now in the F&B industry (my brother works as a sous chef in one of the restaurants at The Exchange).. he always share his woes with me.. he said they only have a certain quota for hiring foreigners (they dont even call them FTs', just foreigners, as they dont consider waiters/kitchen helpers as something that requires certain \"talent\" to be good at... though I believe some people really do have a talent in cooking or whipping up a new recipe or menu)... they could hire as many locals as they want, but he says that the turn-over is very HIGH, compared to foreigners who stay with them longer (usually 2 years or more), whereas locals stay at an average of 6 months... but they keep hiring locals, as they dont neet to pay levy and dont have to worry about \"quota\"...the story is the same.. lower cost of acquisition if they hire locals as no need to pay levy... (not necessarily either local or foreigner is earning lower just because one is local/foreigner,, salary is commensurate to merits ==>experience, skills and attitude towards work). -
limlim:
Again you make all sorts of assumptions. There is a very fine line between profit and survival. If any management of a company says we only manage a company to survive, how long do you think before the owners or shareholders of the company kick them out? If they can turn a better profit elsewhere, why should they work in survival mode in Singapore? You say good riddance to these just because they employ foreigners?
that is skewed reasoning.pirate:
(2) Let those SMEs that cannot adapt move out... Which in my view translates to \"I am not willing to make sacrifices. Let the other people (who work in those SMEs) make the sacrifices.\"
If FTs are restricted to those real talents that can add value to the company,
either
1) The locals get better pay as he may cover higher responsibility or more duties.
2) The company benefits in the long run as they need to invest in efforts for more efficient running.
Also, you did not address the issue of companies who do not rely on FT but take the opportunity to hired FT at low cost when they can well afford to hired a local. The only reason? profit. Not survival.
And, you talked about companies with 50 locals and 1 FT moving out.. which is BS. More likely, the companies that are affected are those that employ 50FTs and 1 local. Are these companies add any significant value to local economy?
Also, you think we can be so choosy about the types of industries that we take. You think we can say, like it or leave it, and still hope to have a vibrant economy. Just take a look around the region and see how the competition is heating up. You turn up your nose at something? Malaysia, Vietnam and Phillipines are more than happy to lap them up. You want to kick out companies that employ 20 FTs and 20 locals? More than the loss of the jobs, think about the services that company may have provided to OTHER companies, who may then follow suit to other countries where that company had relocated to.
Your understanding of how all of this hangs together is so narrow and naive.
You seem to think that the purpose of existence of companies is to provide employment. It is not. The purpose of a company is to turn a profit, and it does this by providing services and products, and it will seek to do so at the places where it can best make those products and best make a profit. This might be company that only employs 10 foreigners and 5 Singaporeans, but provides a service used by 20 other companies. We cannot say these companies do not add value. We cannot be cavalier and lose these types of companies, you understand?
What you are saying is that damn the companies, just make sure that Singaporeans stay employed, completely forgetting that it is the companies that employ Singaporeans. When they go, so how many Singaporeans lose their high value employment, not just in these companies but in related industries. -
limlim,
in addition, it is also cheaper for us to manage local talents in many ways
-e.g. we get SDF grant for IT training (as much as 70% claim at the end of year)..
so let us say we need to send 10 staff to training that costs 3,000 sgd/head.. if all 10 staff are locals.. then we only have to pay 1,800 sgd each..
- there are also other government programs that provides grants to companies (SME/non-SMEs) if there are people programs designed for SCs
one such programmes, you can find here:
http://hcs.com.sg/v2/index.php/info/page/prime
now the government designed/developed these programmes for companies to benefit from.. however, as was the case for our company, nobody pays much attention to these programmes.. I was actually the one (a PR, not even an SC), who is driving the adoption of these programmes internally.. my question is.. how come no SC is promoting this internally, when SCs are the one who is getting more benefit out of it.
one of the challenges I face is that we are a global MNC.. these programmes are specific to Singapore only.. though the framework can also benefit the regional team.. most of our senior leaders kinda snub this idea, as they feel its too localised.. I do believe though that if there are enough locals helping me to promote the adoption of these programmes more senior leaders will \"listen\".. however no one wants to participate when it comes to formalising grievances and proposing solutions for it...
why are we whining over lunch time with khakis? and yet get so shy when it comes to voicing out our opinions in the board room? -
limlim:
Ok. I omitted to mention
that is skewed reasoning.pirate:
(2) Let those SMEs that cannot adapt move out... Which in my view translates to \"I am not willing to make sacrifices. Let the other people (who work in those SMEs) make the sacrifices.\"
If FTs are restricted to those real talents that can add value to the company,
either
1) The locals get better pay as he may cover higher responsibility or more duties.
2) The company benefits in the long run as they need to invest in efforts for more efficient running.
Also, you did not address the issue of companies who do not rely on FT but take the opportunity to hired FT at low cost when they can well afford to hired a local. The only reason? profit. Not survival.
And, you talked about companies with 50 locals and 1 FT moving out.. which is BS. More likely, the companies that are affected are those that employ 50FTs and 1 local. Are these companies add any significant value to local economy?
(3) I am not willing to make any sacrifice because nobody has to make any sacrifices.
Yeah, sure.
I know of companies that rely on FWs, but I don't know of many companies that rely on hiring cheap FTs. Which industries would they be in? -
pirate and 3boys,
take it easy on limlim guys… probably just venting frustration. i take it as an opportunity to also present my views from the other side (from the FW side)… i just hope that this don’t escalate to using "hateful" remarks (from either side). -
Here is an article for context --> http://www.npr.org/2011/06/09/137081954/union-workers-cry-foul-over-new-s-c-boeing-plant
Not only are countries fighting each other for industry, even states within the US fight each other for corporations. The (more) rigid labour conditions in Washington State drove Boeing to set up a plant in South Carolina. Boeing has strong historical links to Seattle, but if labour gets too tough, off they go. It's that simple. -
3Boys:
Show the statistics before you repeatedly use words like naive and narrow..
What you are saying is that damn the companies, just make sure that Singaporeans stay employed, completely forgetting that it is the companies that employ Singaporeans. When they go, so how many Singaporeans lose their high value employment, not just in these companies but in related industries.
How many jobs are created? HOW MANY goes to citizens?
And, you failed to address the point on fraud.
Like I said, there have to be a proper balance.
Now the balance seems to be off. Too fast, too many, too little control, too little checks. -
limlim:
hi limlim,
Show the statistics before you repeatedly use words like naive and narrow..3Boys:
What you are saying is that damn the companies, just make sure that Singaporeans stay employed, completely forgetting that it is the companies that employ Singaporeans. When they go, so how many Singaporeans lose their high value employment, not just in these companies but in related industries.
How many jobs are created? HOW MANY goes to citizens?
And, you failed to address the point on fraud.
Like I said, there have to be a proper balance.
Now the balance seems to be off. Too fast, too many, too little control, too little checks.
am not sure if this is fairly accurate..(at least for our industry and company) for reasons i have cited above.. there are controls and checks.. but not everyone is making effort for the implementation... the horse can be led to water, but cant be forced to drink the water.
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