Population woes
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pirate:
Your initial point is the workers are to satisfy the demand.
Actually you are missing the big picture. The PMET FTs you are referring to are actually in jobs that are the easiest to export, ie white collar jobs in offices, usually involving a computer. Our PMETs will face those competition, whether the FTs are stationed in Singapore or overseas. The difference is that if they are stationed overseas because the entire operation or department is outsourced there, the Singapore jobs in those operations and departments will also go *poof*.limlim:
You totally missed the BIG picture..
Why do we need some many providers? Because of the increase in demand. Why the increase in demand? becasue of the influx of FTs!
Anyway, for many years Singapore have been relying on FW.. I feel there is no issue with FW.. we need them to fill the void that locals doesn't want to do.
The problem is the recent influx of FTs, PMETs, competing with locals for many things.
FTs contribute to demand for service at restaurants, transport, HDB flats, queue at clinics, handyman services, FDW etc.. NOT the FWs.
With less \"FT\", there will be less competitions.. And less overcrowding.
Don't mixed up the two. One is a necessity.. The other? creating business for rich businessman and lower operating cost for rich bosses.
It's the peasants who will suffer.
The world is developing where it is getting really scary what can be done remotely. Most back office functions can already be outsourced. Ironically, those functions that are most difficult to outsource are those that involve blue collar work or dealing directly with customers - the ones being done by FWs.
Think for a moment FTs in which sector you want out of Singapore. Banking? IT? Accountancy? Sales? Design? Creative? Medicine? Research? Law? Engineering? Architecture? Education? F&B?
The picture that I'm talking about is that most of the demand are created by the FTs themselves.
Now if you're talking about the need for so MANY FTs..
Those are the message that 154 have been selling.. I don't buy that.
If the companies want to shift, they will shift. If they choose to remain there, they will have their reasons (no natural disaster, stable etc....).
Of course, you're free to choose what to believe in.
I don't believe we really need so many imported PMETs. -
limlim:
They can introduce income tax for the F whatever.. no?[/quote]Yes, that's right. Besides GST, there are various kind of taxes and levy and duty payable by FTs, FWs, FDWs and PRs.mamago:
[quote=\"limlim\"]
WHY introduce GST? GST is to discourage spending.. I remember that was one of the reasons given. If spending is good, WHY discourage it? weird.. isn't it?
GST? Bcos the aging population, the pool of tax payers are getting smaller, by the year of 2065, there will be 6:10... GST is to broaden the tax base, the running of a gov, the public services etc, needs money to run...
Now, GST is a good policy! The FT, FW, FDW, PR... whoever spends, pays GST. Fair tax system? No?
PRs/ FTs pay Income Tax and Corporate Tax. (CPF, too)
FWs/FDWs pay FW levy, no minimum income taxable bracket; all liable.
Now, some may claim that it's the employers that pay the worker's levy for the FW/FDW; which is not true. 羊毛出自羊身上.
(since I am an employer of FDWs, let me explain the FDW's levy)
HK's FDW draw a minimum monthly wage of approx HK$4000 (S$650), but pay no levy. In Spore, we pay levy, S$265 monthly (for PR employers), on behalf of our FDWs; thus their minimum salary is lowered to S$420-S$450. The FDWs pay higher taxes than many locals. But, are we complaining?
(The fact is that we are losing all the experienced FDWs to HK and Taiwan's market.) -
Anyway, I’m not interested in debating the need for FTs…
Just take it as FTs are essential if that is what you believe in…
I just post the article to share…
It’s not about FTs… it’s about overcrowding… -
Haha... Ok lah ok lah.... 不要吵了啦... 作为主人要有主人的气度
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limlim:
It's not about FTs.. it's about overcrowding..
It is the same thing, since the complaint is that overcrowding is caused by foreigners, and I am pretty sure they don't mean tourists.
Not arguing or debating... just saying... -
(Haha, I learned the trick of pirating quotes from Pirate.)
pirate:
Quoted from another thread: \"PM Asks \"What kind of people do we want to be?\"
As far as I can tell, the most shrill xenophobic voices online do not come from people whose \"survival is threaten by the badly planned immigration policy.\" The ones most impacted are the blue collar workers like bus drivers, nurses, cleaners, waiters etc. I don't see people clamouring for the government to clamp down on blue collar foreign workers.
On the contrary, the xenophobic voices come primarily from those in areas like IT, banking and admin - white collar workers in aircon offices. I have always been of the view that most of these office jobs can be outsourced overseas with a good corporate broadband link, and now with cloud computing...
So, guess what? Unless your job involves dealing directly with customers in Singapore (eg. private bankers, doctors, waiters) or physical work that must be done in Singapore (eg. bus drivers, cleaners, garbage collectors) or both (eg. nurses), the foreigner will threaten your survival, whether he is working in Singapore, Mumbai, Shanghai, Manila or JB. Welcome to the 21st century. Adapt and evolve or die.
As for why our government keep depressing blue collar wages by importing blue collar workers to do work that must be physically done in Singapore, I have no idea. -
I find the argument that foreign investments will move out if we dun allow FT deeply flawed. Other than the minority of the FTs that have skills and qualifications that SCs don’t have, for the majority of these FTs, what skills or experience do they have that SCs don’t? And these are definitely jobs that SCs want to do. If the foreign investors are here because they want these FT workers, why dun they just invest in these countries directly, with a running cost of less than half of SG? I find that SC think too little of ourselves. We have an edge over these countries, eg good infrastructure, honest and efficient workforce, and a clean and efficient gov. So what is the deciding factor that caused these differences? SC! In the past, FTs are the minority in the workforce, therefore the work ethics and culture is defined by the SCs, and the FTs have no choice but to integrate. However, with the workforce at almost 50% FTs now, and >50% in the near future if we really go to 6 mil people, the FTs will not integrate. Instead they have brought they work culture and ethics over. I have shared in another thread that it has affected the reputation of SG in my industry in another thread. If this goes on, I really worry abt the future of SG. Even the stat board that i am in currently is 50% FTs. The foreign investors may move out of SG soon, not because they are unable to hire FTs, but they would realize that the quality of work and service that they are getting is the same as the country of origins of these fts. So might as well move over there with a fraction of operating cost!
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What low birth rates mean for Singapore
Published on Oct 10, 2012
The Straits Times
If Singapore does not raise its birth rate, the number of grandchildren of today's generation will shrink by two-thirds - and will still have to support their parents and grandparents.
Apart from the increased burden tomorrow's generations will face, the shrinking citizen population will also mean a shrinking local workforce. So, while efforts are being made to get more Singaporeans to reproduce, immigrants are needed fill the gap to maintain the Singapore core.
This is the crux of the nation's population challenge as laid out by Deputy Prime Minister Teo Chee Hean in a speech that was delivered at the start of last night's forum, but also appeared to wrap up a debate that has dominated dialogues in past months.
In a speech to about 220 participants, he painted a stark picture of what could happen.
\"If our birth rates stay at 1.2, and we don't have immigration, our citizen population will start to decline from 2025,\" he said. \"With all of us doing our part, I hope our birth rate can increase... maybe, at least, to 1.4 or 1.5,\" he added, noting that Singapore had such rates just 10 or so years ago.
\"Of course, I think it would be very good if our birth rate was higher than 1.5, but it will take time to change this, and we will need a really huge effort. But I hope one day, we will get there.\"
The minister in charge of population matters said the Government would do its part to encourage Singaporeans to get married and have more children. These included pro-marriage and parenthood policies and measures, which he said the Government is looking at enhancing.
But Mr Teo also stressed the need for society to enhance a family-friendly culture. \"We have to strive to create a supportive and conducive environment for raising children, and we hope couples will make the decision to start a family, even if circumstances don't quite fit their expectations completely or perfectly.\"
At the same time, he highlighted the need for some 20,000 new immigrants a year to keep the citizen population stable.
Many will come from marriages between Singaporeans and foreign spouses - which accounted for four in 10 marriages last year, or 9,000 marriages - and others, adults in their prime working years and families.
\"We select those who are able to contribute to Singapore, and to integrate into our society,\" said Mr Teo, even as he acknowledged that many Singaporeans were worried about integrating them into society here.
But he expressed confidence that this would happen over time in an immigrant society known for turning diversity into strength. \"We are united, not by where we are born, but by the values we live by and a common desire to want to make Singapore, our home, better.\"
JANICE HENG -
I am really perplexd by this so called 2.1 birth rate that the govt has been advocating all these years. Singapore will never have this birth rate of 2.1 and not even anything close. We are already a developed country. Look at all the other developed countries in Asia such as Japan, Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc. Their birth rates are not close to 2.1. So what I see is, this is an impossible task and someone out there has been using this excuse to further their whatsoever objectives and trying to \"educate\" people. This is just like asking my ds to get full marks in all four subjects including HCL!
Our productivity is declining and this is a FACT! As long as there are ample cheap labours, whether FWs or FTs (PMET), employers will not make an effort to increase productivity. From what I see, Singagpore has moved a few steps backward. When I see some FWs idling around doing jobs that can be done by fewer workers, I can't help but shake my head in disbelief. When can we achieve the level of productivity such as in Japan (eg.retail), not sure if I can see it in my life time from the way we go.
So what is this Magic number? For now it's 6m, so what is next? 7m? 8m? There will be no end to this, all these really make me depressed, thinking of the next generation and my ds.... :gloomy:
The FTs now is different from the FTs whom I encountered 10yrs ago. Back then, these ppl came to Singapore at the request of the company (HQ) to transfer their skills and expertises to locals and will eventually leave Sin in good hands of locals.
What I see now is Greed, greed of \"money never enough\", for who? for those SMEs employers and big corporations and shareholders. This is a vicious cycle. Period. -
Mamago
Like I mentioned previously, I am not saying we should not allow FTs at all. I really hate it when the gov put forth their argument like it is all or none. We should have immigrants to make up the shortfall in birthdate, that’s it. Not to grow the population by >1 million in 5 years. That is way above the replacement rate for birth. And because of the sudden increase, we are having all the associated problem mentioned. And not to mention the CMI quality of a lot of the recent FTs due to the lax selection criteria to make up the huge numbers.
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