P2 Math - General Discussion

[en107rn.01056yahoo.01056com.01056sg]

Hi Tamarind


I came across this question when I was revising math with ds. This qs is found in one of his revision book. I remember this question so well, because I mark his answer wrong & he argued why he insist his is right. When I re-read the question, I found that I mis-interpret the question, peek through the answer behind & :oops: he is right.

The talk that I have with a teacher from elite school is that, the school will purposely set a few questions that requires higher level thinking. It will help them to segregate the students who has high ability, from those who don't.

Having 2 kids from two different types of school, I agree with the elite school method to identify the high ability students. Some school exam questions are quite simple for average students. It will result in majority of the students getting full marks or near to prefect score. Identification of high ability students will not be based on ability to do math but ability to be conscientious to not make any silly or careless mistake.

By the way, P1 in neighbourhood school covers up to 100. And yes, they are expected to know 51-39 by 3rd/4th semester.

[jedamum]

EN:

By the way, P1 in neighbourhood school covers up to 100. And yes, they are expected to know 51-39 by 3rd/4th semester.

Yes. They will be taught borrowing and bringing forward and number bonds addition and subtraction for 2 digit numbers.

tamarind:

Anyone came across any P1 maths problems which are interesting, or ridiculous, or not age appropriate ?

I came across this maths problem in the P1 assessment of Nanyang Primary School.

There were 51 passengers in a bus. Some passengers alighted at the first bus stop. How many passengers alighted at the first bus stop if 39 passengers were left in the bus ?

tamarind,
I'm glad that you find it ridiculous.
I thought that was the norm....cos a peek at some of the P1 assessments reveals numerous similar questions.

[MMM]

During SA2, I gave my girl the past year papers of various schools. Particularly for maths, the std differs widely. Eg. in "top schools", it is observed to be alot more tricky that sometimes as parents, we need to digest the requirement before we can guide them. Whereas in others, the questions are alot more straightforward.


Dun want to name schools here, but it’s true eg. for some neighbourhood schools, she found the paper easy and score around 90+ but for top schools, she only get an avg of 75-80.

[sleepy]

Is it necessary to buy exam papers set by elite schools?


Doing assessment books not sufficient?

I noticed assessment books have varying standards to cater for different abilities too

[MMM]

I didn't buy and simply downloaded from http://www.misskoh.com.sg. They have the top school and some neighbour school papers there.


Also, was kiasu previously and bought assessment of all sorts. Then realised that not all assessment are great so end up alot of assessments are untouch and we didn't have the time to do all anyway. This year, I only buy selectively eg. I just got the Andrew Er for maths, eph assessment (all in 1) for english. Personally found eph assessment better esp the book that has grammar, vocab, grammar and vocab cloze, comprehensive, compo, listing comprehension, etc... Used that as last minute revision for my girl's SA2 and she had 54/55 for her main paper. A significant improvement.

[tamarind]

EN,

I also looked at the SA1 papers from RGPS, Tao Nan, and Pei Chun. None of the schools require the students to subtract two double digit numbers greater than 20. That's why I thought it is not normal for Nanyang to set this question.

The problem with Nanyang primary school setting this type of question, is that they will only prompt parents to send their kids to more maths enrichment classes to prepare their kids well !

I don't think that bus question is a good question that requires higher order thinking. That question requires a very good command of English. I think the following question is better. It is also from Nanyang.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b324/tamarind/P1_maths.jpg\">


I feel that a good school should not be so concerned with identifying the cream of the crop. These students are only at P1 ! The school should be more concerned with making sure that all their students have a good understanding of basic maths.

I am teaching young adult students Calculus. Some of them cannot even divide 2 simple fractions. Something is wrong with our education system.

jedamum,
I think that question is badly written. Even as an adult, I need to read it 2 times to understand what it is asking.

The question I posted :
There were 51 passengers in a bus. Some passengers alighted at the first bus stop. How many passengers alighted at the first bus stop if 39 passengers were left in the bus ?

I realized that it is much more important to make sure that our kids can read English very well ! Otherwise they cannot even understand the question to know that they need to do 51 - 39 !

Why use the word \"alighted\" ? My english standard is not very high. So I don't expect a P1 student to know what is \"alighted\". Why not just use \"got off\" the bus ?

Also why use \"first bus stop\" ? Why not just use \"a bus stop\" ? The word \"first\" only makes the question more confusing. We are talking about 7 year old children here.

sleepy,
You can also download from http://www.test-paper.info.

I feel that doing exam papers set by elite schools is better than doing assessment books. Those schools are experts in producing top students, right ?

Actually I am not going to make my kids do these papers lah. I am just doing research for my own knowledge only. I am trying to get an idea about how to prepare my kids before they enter P1. There are many ways to teach a child maths. I am not keen to use the assessment book method.

[ChiefKiasu]

tamarind:

...Are the teachers trying to test the students' English or Maths ?...

Unfortunately, such questions are the norm rather than the exception. And it only gets worse up the ladder. That's why English is such an important subject for Primary schools.

[csc]

ChiefKiasu:

tamarind:

...Are the teachers trying to test the students' English or Maths ?...

Unfortunately, such questions are the norm rather than the exception. And it only gets worse up the ladder. That's why English is such an important subject for Primary schools.

English is an even more important subject for Secondary schools. You need a good command of English to score in subjects like Literature, Geography, History and even Science.

[en107rn.01056yahoo.01056com.01056sg]

Tamarind, my dd is in RGPS. It was a long talk I had with her form teacher that reveals at least 3 questions will be set for higher order thinking.


Do also note, when I go through math revision with my daughter, I found that the school ensures everyone is subjected to higher order type of questions. If you have bought math book for your child for P1, there are some questions that are mark with *. In RGPS, there is no exception. All students need to learn & answer them.

However, in my ds school, only those in the top 3 classes will enjoy doing such problem sum. Those in average classes will not. That was the information that I have gotten from the talk given by the teachers. The problem with ds school is, the papers are too easy. So, when they pick up the supposedly cream of the crop, these are the students that are either hot house or not prone to careless mistakes.

My ds obtain 90+ for maths but that does not mean that he is in the top 3 classes because it is already filled up with full marks or near to full marks. That means he is not able to learn higher order math which fortunately he is able to do it without me teaching him.

I read through CKS notes on how to identity types of carelessness. Yes, his problem is transfering of answer on the MCQ. EG if the MCQ is to choose A,B,C,D, my ds will write down the answer eg 38 instead of the alphabet.

So just because of his carelessness & not because of his ability, that he is deprived of such opportunities.

Tamarind wrote [quote] feel that a good school should not be so concerned with identifying the cream of the crop. These students are only at P1 ! [/quote]How do West Grove identity those in high ability & segregate them at the end of P1?

As an adult when I mark the question, I took it for granted that the question is as such. But for a higher ability students, such question is a challenge to them, which makes them think before replying. That is the reason why, his reasoning makes me re-read the question again & still not convince & take a peek at the answer provided by the book.

There is another type of question discuss in another thread that makes parents cringe. I can't exactly remember the question, but it goes something like this.

A + A = 20
A + B = 25

What is B? This is a P1 question which average students are not able to answer.

I don't mind if schools do away with such questions. But do ensure that what is being taught in school is being leveled as well.

Maybe that is one reason why certain school often ends up producing such good results as opposed to others.

CKS wrote [quote]Unfortunately, such questions are the norm rather than the exception. And it only gets worse up the ladder. That's why English is such an important subject for Primary schools.[/quote]I started to read through the math thread which are often answered quickly by Lizawa. If students grasp of English is weak, chances are, their math will suffer too.

[clare]

tamarind:

There were 51 passengers in a bus. Some passengers alighted at the first bus stop. How many passengers alighted at the first bus stop if 39 passengers were left in the bus ?

My five year-old answered this in a flash by thinking of 50 minus 40 first and then adding the two ones that were left out. :roll: Incidentally, he has no clue how to do long addition/subtraction, carrying over etc, so I guess intuition kicked in.
I sincerely hope the kids don't have to show any kind of working for this type of questions, or he will get zero marks for it.

Just asked my friend, who's a primary school math HOD, about the word 'alighted' used in this question. According to him, the question has already provided a clue in the words 'left in the bus', so even if the kids do not know the word alighted they can guess the meaning. And that's exactly what my son did...