Is Algebra allowed for PSLE Math?

[tinker_bell]

zac's mum\" post_id=\"2103739\" time=\"1680390908\" user_id=\"53606:[quote=\"zac's mum\" post_id=2103739 time=1680390908 user_id=53606]
Perhaps you could post some examples of those

[\"Olympiad-styled\" IQ questions that have been popping up in the PSLE with alarming frequency, then the least that teachers could do, is make sure that such questions can be attempted using 'models' or 'heuristics' as taught in the regular school lessons!]

and let us see if they really cannot be solved with heuristics. Maybe since your DS is in P5, the heuristics for them has not yet been taught. Some are taught only in P6, which is quite late IMO.[/quote]

Is @fionachia0034 refering to the psle 2021 helen & ivan coin question?

But all the top math tuition centre solutions use modeling type method to solve it leh. I don't think algebra is required.

https://i.imgur.com/q7fk9gc.png\">

Nicklebee math
https://www.facebook.com/nicklebee.tutors/posts/4949062438454414
https://www.instagram.com/p/CUey2z2vwLZ

Visible math
https://www.facebook.com/visiblemathacademy/posts/4373007452753073

Concept math
https://www.facebook.com/conceptmath/posts/4671369339592555

Math heuristics
https://www.facebook.com/mathsheuristics/videos/1470500730017213/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-oBNO0aFrA

[sushi88]

After reading Ms Ho Peng’s reply posted by tinker_bell, I cannot help but feel that there must be some miscommunication. While it is ok to insist that children use the method taught in class to be used in order for the teacher to validate if the children understood the class, this rule should not be applicable to PSLE. if the children can understand another method better.

[Mr.025413Clumsy]

I remember my DS telling me that his school did not discourage the use of algebra but they were clear that it wasn’t their preferred method (models) for solving the questions. So, it seemed that algebra was permissible but model-drawing was recommended. As a member of the "older generation," I’m not familiar with model-drawing so could only counter-check his answers using my algebra methods. Ultimately, he got comfortable using both methods but veered towards model-drawing only because it was what they were encouraged to use in school.

[fionachia0034]

zac's mum\" post_id=\"2103739\" time=\"1680390908\" user_id=\"53606:[quote=\"zac's mum\" post_id=2103739 time=1680390908 user_id=53606]
Perhaps you could post some examples of those

[\"Olympiad-styled\" IQ questions that have been popping up in the PSLE with alarming frequency, then the least that teachers could do, is make sure that such questions can be attempted using 'models' or 'heuristics' as taught in the regular school lessons!]

and let us see if they really cannot be solved with heuristics. Maybe since your DS is in P5, the heuristics for them has not yet been taught. Some are taught only in P6, which is quite late IMO.[/quote]

Example 1 from 2009 PSLE :

Jim bought some chocolates and gave half of them to Ken. Ken bought some sweets and gave half of them to Jim. Jim ate 12 sweets and Ken ate 18 chocolates. The ratio of Jim's sweets to chocolates becomes 1:7 and the ratio of Ken's sweets to chocolates becomes 1:4. How many sweets did Ken buy?

Example 2 from 2019 PSLE :

Jamie and Oliver used $61.20 each to buy some egg tarts. Jamie has a 15% discount coupon and bought 6 more egg tarts than Oliver.

(a)How many egg tarts did Jamie buy?

(b)What is the cost of an egg tart without the discount?

[fionachia0034]

Typical scholar answer. 说了等于没说.


Has MOE ever outright come forth to clarify the following. During the marking of the PSLE Math paper, will method marks for Algebra-type workings still be credited, even if the final answer is wrong?

I want to know if it is true that the student only has 2 possible outcomes if they use Algebra for a PSLE Math question, the Exam marker will either award full marks or zero marks for the question.

sushi88\" post_id=\"2103728\" time=\"1680365555\" user_id=\"100857:

Interesting information you are sharing.

SEAB's response recently to last year's PSLE about algebra method.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/psle-maths-algebra-full-credit-nan-hua-primary-forum-letter-seab-3131246

It is good to clarify with SEAB/MOE again......it is indeed shocking to learn about this fine print. If it is true, it is good to ask for the rationale and share with us. Thank you.

tinker_bell\" post_id=\"2103742\" time=\"1680396445\" user_id=\"194652:

The parent chatgroups shared a old newspaper forum letter about algebra method vs mathematical modeling method also. I think MOE always give the same reply. But not sure about method marks if your algebra answer is wrong.

My eldest is P6, but the school never restrict the techniques the kids can use.

https://i.imgur.com/JjoPhCq.jpg\">

https://i.imgur.com/UWAcFk8.jpg\">

[fionachia0034]

tinker_bell\" post_id=\"2103743\" time=\"1680397040\" user_id=\"194652:

Is @fionachia0034 refering to the psle 2021 helen & ivan coin question?

But all the top math tuition centre solutions use modeling type method to solve it leh. I don't think algebra is required.

https://i.imgur.com/q7fk9gc.png\">

Nicklebee math
https://www.facebook.com/nicklebee.tutors/posts/4949062438454414
https://www.instagram.com/p/CUey2z2vwLZ

Visible math
https://www.facebook.com/visiblemathacademy/posts/4373007452753073

Concept math
https://www.facebook.com/conceptmath/posts/4671369339592555

Math heuristics
https://www.facebook.com/mathsheuristics/videos/1470500730017213/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-oBNO0aFrA

My son could use Algebra to work this question out correctly.

[zac's mum]

fionachia0034\" post_id=\"2103998\" time=\"1680485141\" user_id=\"201257:

Example 1 from 2009 PSLE :

Jim bought some chocolates and gave half of them to Ken. Ken bought some sweets and gave half of them to Jim. Jim ate 12 sweets and Ken ate 18 chocolates. The ratio of Jim's sweets to chocolates becomes 1:7 and the ratio of Ken's sweets to chocolates becomes 1:4. How many sweets did Ken buy?

Example 2 from 2019 PSLE :

Jamie and Oliver used $61.20 each to buy some egg tarts. Jamie has a 15% discount coupon and bought 6 more egg tarts than Oliver.

(a)How many egg tarts did Jamie buy?

(b)What is the cost of an egg tart without the discount?

There are YouTube videos showing how to solve these 2 questions. For qn 1, I simply googled the entire text of the question and this link came up:

https://www.joyouslearning.com.sg/post/the-psle-maths-ratio-question-that-stumped-students

My comments: model method is used to show the method working. The X and Y statements that follow (sometimes named as U and P in Primary 6) are the pseudo-algebra that were taught permitted by my son’s P6 teacher. It is not the full-on secondary 1 algebra that he is learning now (first working statement must be “let x be…” and “let y be…” and the whole working that follows has no English words at all.

For qn 2, this one has a plethora of YouTube videos showing how to solve, all of them use Model method. I googled:

“psle egg tarts math question“

My son’s P6 teacher explained to us that the P6 exams (including prelims) were there to test the child’s application of the method taught in school. That was how they assessed the kid’s’ competency. What else could us parents do but comply (and teach our kids to comply)? My hands were tied. I hated it, my child hated it, but we had to follow. PSLE also do likewise. My child was not so adaptable as to switch method last-minute.

He is much happier doing Sec 1 Express maths now, which is more straightforward. PSLE Math was just stupid to us, forcing kids to use convoluted methods when a more straightforward solution was available if we used Algebra.

[fionachia0034]

zac's mum\" post_id=\"2104003\" time=\"1680486715\" user_id=\"53606:[quote=\"zac's mum\" post_id=2104003 time=1680486715 user_id=53606]
There are YouTube videos showing how to solve these 2 questions. For qn 1, I simply googled the entire text of the question and this link came up:

https://www.joyouslearning.com.sg/post/the-psle-maths-ratio-question-that-stumped-students

My comments: model method is used to show the method working. The X and Y statements that follow (sometimes named as U and P in Primary 6) are the pseudo-algebra that were taught permitted by my son’s P6 teacher. It is not the full-on secondary 1 algebra that he is learning now (first working statement must be “let x be…” and “let y be…” and the whole working that follows has no English words at all.

For qn 2, this one has a plethora of YouTube videos showing how to solve, all of them use Model method. I googled:

“psle egg tarts math question“

My son’s P6 teacher explained to us that the P6 exams (including prelims) were there to test the child’s application of the method taught in school. That was how they assessed the kid’s’ competency. What else could us parents do but comply (and teach our kids to comply)? My hands were tied. I hated it, my child hated it, but we had to follow. PSLE also do likewise. My child was not so adaptable as to switch method last-minute.

He is much happier doing Sec 1 Express maths now, which is more straightforward. PSLE Math was just stupid to us, forcing kids to use convoluted methods when a more straightforward solution was available if we used Algebra.[/quote]

EXACTLY! I know right? :mad: :mad: :mad:

Why are the PSLE Math questions so tough that the school teachers have to teach convoluted pseudo-Algebra ('units' and 'parts' technique) just so that they do not befoul the great MOE's stance of \"NO ALGEBRA; MODELS ONLY\"?

Why can't they just let us teach our own children Algebra and be done with this entire farce.

This is just destroying my son's love and interest in Math.

He has no issues with using Algebra when he participates in the Math Competition & Olympiads. So why not in the PSLE for those \"Olympiad-styled\" IQ questions?

[phtthp]

fionachia0034\" post_id=\"2103726\" time=\"1680362237\" user_id=\"201257:

My son's Pri.5 teacher told the class that Algebra is strictly NOT allowed in her class, or else else no marks will be awarded for the workings.

I quote the teacher :

\"If I see let 'x' be oranges and 'y' be bananas, no method mark. If I see equations '2x + 3y = 50' also no method mark. If you use Algebra and you get correct, only answer marks will be given.\"

Is this true? I have been teaching my son Algebra since young and his Pri.3 and Pri.4 teacher did not make any such comment previously.

A few parents complained to the school, but the HOD backed the teacher. The HOD said that MOE officially accepts Algebra for use in the PSLE Math exam, but during the marking of the PSLE Math paper, no method marks will be credited if the final answer is wrong. In other words, the student has only 2 possible outcomes if they use Algebra, either get full marks or zero marks for the question. That is why the HOD set a policy to blanket ban Algebra.

Should we make an official complaint to MOE?

Yes, this is the concern that many P6 parents are grappling with.

Yes, we all know that Algebra Is a form of primary school \"units and parts\" model method taught. Is not that we, P6 parents, are dumb, don't realise this.

The problem, Is this.
There are 2 group of P6 students, here.

One group is those who are average in Maths, who still cannot follow Secondary school Algebra method, taught. Even if u had taught them x or y, they still fail to comprehend, bec they just don't grasp it, even after being taught. Bec in their mind, they just can't see it, can't grasp the concept.

However, there is another group of P6 students, who are advanced fast learners. You teach them Secondary school Algebra method, they are quick to grasp concept, and after a few Algebra lessons taught, they see it, they get it.

The concern is, what happen during PSLE Maths is, some of the qns set are challenging. If u apply Sec school Algebra method, u can solve it very quickly, under tight time constraint (Psle). Of course, u need to explain how u formulate your Algebra equation: the x and y.

However, so far, SEAB never come out openly in the press with sample PSLE Maths questions or examples explaining that

if u were to solve using Secondary school's Algebra method, student get FULL marks, because SEAB do accept this method, or they penalize students and give them close to ZERO mark, during marking. I mean, come on SEAB, in order to allay parents' & students' fear, the unknown of how u actually mark, u should come out in press to explain how u mark, clearly. SEAB, u should state your stand to the huge audience, out here.

[sushi88]

Question:

If a kid is so good in answering in algebra method, the kid should be taught how to check the answers well.
If the checking is seamless, there would never be an issue of not getting the answer right, hence there should not be an issue of trying to get method marks?

Maybe the question to ask SEAB is:
If you do not award method marks(claim by HOD and teacher), so if there is a small transcription error(just like typo error) in the working but the end answer is correct, the kid gets full marks right?