Living in Singapore

[sharonkhoo]

zac's mum\" post_id=\"2131355\" time=\"1711428630\" user_id=\"53606:[quote=\"zac's mum\" post_id=2131355 time=1711428630 user_id=53606]
I had a Chinese tutor who would cane any student (on the non-writing palm) 1 stroke for every 5 marks below 50/100, for her weekly tingxie. It was never on my radar to care about it (or any of my classmates who were caned for this) because I was a model student who dutifully studied for every tingxie because i was a perfectionist (and liked studying).

Until one time when i completely forgot to study for the tuition tingxie (maybe we went for holiday or sthg & there was a replacement class arranged which mixed up the days in my mind). First time in my life that i got 0/100 for tingxie. Even the tutor was shocked but she had to carry out the punishment in front of the class since that was her blanket rule. The pain on my hand (redness and swelling) was quite bad, but of course subsided and went away over time.

Did i learn my lesson? I wasnt sure what lesson it was. Remember to study? Yes i never made the same mistake again.

However, there was a fellow student who was caned week after week for failing (~30/100). After experiencing the pain firsthand, I started wondering whether the caning was imparting any lesson for him. He seemed resigned/indifferent/resentful that whatever effort he put in for his studies was somehow NOT translating into a passing grade. And he was being punished for…dunno what. I still haven’t figured out the lesson.

So…i tend to agree with doodbug that caning for poor grades in itself is quite a strange methodology.[/quote]

In less enlightened days, the belief was that any child could learn anything if they only tried hard enough. If they didn't do well, it was because they hadn't worked enough. It took my parents quite a while to figure this out, actually. Partly because my brother and I were both good students, but eventually we were able to convince them that for some subjects, even working very hard wouldn't get the top marks. When we were in Pr school, I heard them being very critical of relatives' kids who weren't doing well in school, putting it down to the parents being too lax and not forcing the kids to work hard.

For that kid who got 30/100 week after week - could he have had some learning disability? That's what happens when disabilities go undetected - I have a friend who had a rough time in Pr school as his eyesight was failing, but no-one realised it. It was only when it got really serious that it was diagnosed. He eventually became legally blind, but went on to get postgraduate degrees. This was an era when regular eyesight tests were not done in school. And I did relief teaching after my A levels, and one 11yo girl really struggled to read and write - lots of funny squiggles and reversed letters, and she barely knew her alphabet. But no-one seemed to have heard of dyslexia then, though now I think back, she was probably dyslexic. But she was written off as \"stupid\" and \"lazy\".

When I was in P1, I was in a school where the teacher caned students for not being able to recite lessons or failing tingxie. I managed to avoid the caning mostly, but once I had to stand on a chair and pull my ears for failing tingxie. It was a different time then (1971).

[bbbay]

Seeking parents opinion :


When children not doing well academically, it could be due to:
1) reason the children can control such as, playful, not putting in effort
2) reason children cannot control such as learning disabilities/dyslexia/ADHD
3) different learning style such as better with visual learning, hands on learning etc
4) others


Would arranging students to sit for some form of professional education psychologist’s assessment early, be helpful in providing some indication/identifying each child learning trait , so as to minimise years of “barking up the wrong tree” when children are not learning well? If reasons 2) are identify early, early interventions can be administered. If reasons 3 are identified, may save years of disappointing results from attending courses/merhod of instruction that do not suit the child. If reasons 2 and 3 are ruled out, then talk/“scold” is in order.

I am speaking from my personal experience. I experienced a lot of frustrations for “not living up to my potential” for most of my life. My solution was, to try harder. That didn’t solve the problem and it created new problems. Only a few years back I chanced upon “education psychologists” so I went for a test. One revelation from the test is I have sound processing issue which result in me mis interpreting what i hear often. And also other results that reveal my other strengths. I have some form “liberation” after that. I stop “barking up the wrong tree”, and build on my strengths.

[zac's mum]

slmkhoo\" post_id=\"2131356\" time=\"1711429873\" user_id=\"28674:

In less enlightened days, the belief was that any child could learn anything if they only tried hard enough. If they didn't do well, it was because they hadn't worked enough. It took my parents quite a while to figure this out, actually. Partly because my brother and I were both good students, but eventually we were able to convince them that for some subjects, even working very hard wouldn't get the top marks. When we were in Pr school, I heard them being very critical of relatives' kids who weren't doing well in school, putting it down to the parents being too lax and not forcing the kids to work hard.

For that kid who got 30/100 week after week - could he have had some learning disability? That's what happens when disabilities go undetected - I have a friend who had a rough time in Pr school as his eyesight was failing, but no-one realised it. It was only when it got really serious that it was diagnosed. He eventually became legally blind, but went on to get postgraduate degrees. This was an era when regular eyesight tests were not done in school. And I did relief teaching after my A levels, and one 11yo girl really struggled to read and write - lots of funny squiggles and reversed letters, and she barely knew her alphabet. But no-one seemed to have heard of dyslexia then, though now I think back, she was probably dyslexic. But she was written off as \"stupid\" and \"lazy\".

When I was in P1, I was in a school where the teacher caned students for not being able to recite lessons or failing tingxie. I managed to avoid the caning mostly, but once I had to stand on a chair and pull my ears for failing tingxie. It was a different time then (1971).

I am not sure that the general populace is more enlightened now regarding this belief.

I myself was guilty of this belief. It is the constant narrative being spouted by our education system isnt it? On the grounds/basis of it being meritocratic, we reward those with good grades, and then praise them in public as a shining example of “see? If u work hard, you will score well and get rewarded.” The reverse implication is that “u are lazy / not working hard enough if your grades are poor.” And i bought into this belief because i happened to be one of those who received a direct correlation between my hard work and my good grades. I see the exact same thing here in this forum, as well as in students who are right at the top and winning the Edusave merit awards year after year. I was one of those on stage yearly, thinking “it’s so easy what, why dont other ppl just study” So naiive right?

Until i happened to have a child who went into this same education system and the hard work did not translate into the same results. Then i started to wonder if this system is not applicable to all levels of intelligence, and also whether my child is “stupid” in some way”. Putting in the effort is like putting water into a leaky sieve; nothing much is retained or bears the desired fruit. Wondered for years and yet no learning disability detected.

There is ostensibly more support for those diagnosed with learning disabilities now, in mainstream schools. Glad there is progress on this front. But the education system is still having the same principle of “meritocracy” and those who like it so much are those who benefit from it, so no one is going to change it, as far as I can see.

I am still learning how I can support my own child in his education journey. If the system is not rewarding his strengths (and magnifying his weaknesses in math & science) then maybe I need to double up in my counseling before something snaps.

[lee_yl]

Maybe that boy had some learning disabilities like dyslexia? That’s why every week 30/100. For one who forgot to learn, straight away 0/100. So he did learn his Chinese ting xie just that he can’t seem to score.


When DD2 was younger, she got scolded by us almost everyday because I didn’t know she has very short attention span issues and she would fell asleep after doing 1-2 pages of the assignment book. It was only much later that I realised she cannot handle rote learning. Whereas for my DD1, she could, which led me to believe DD2 was ultra “lazy”.

Anyway, 天生我材必有用。parents need to come to term that not all kids are academically inclined, so as parents, we need to help them to find something they like or enjoy doing.

[sharonkhoo]

bbbay\" post_id=\"2131358\" time=\"1711432202\" user_id=\"175278:

Would arranging students to sit for some form of professional education psychologist’s assessment early, be helpful in providing some indication/identifying each child learning trait , so as to minimise years of “barking up the wrong tree” when children are not learning well? If reasons 2) are identify early, early interventions can be administered. If reasons 3 are identified, may save years of disappointing results from attending courses/merhod of instruction that do not suit the child. If reasons 2 and 3 are ruled out, then talk/“scold” is in order.

How early are you talking about? I think if parents are aware, and are able to try different ways of learning, then it would be better not to pigeonhole their kids. Some kids just develop a bit slower, and it might be better not to have them given a label early. By P1 or P2, I think it might be too early to test, and other ways can be tried first. But by mid-Pr school, if nothing else seems to be helping, then maybe a test may be in order. The problem with widespread testing is that there is a tendency to over-diagnose, and for parents to press for a reason to ask for more accommodations, just so their kids get some additional advantage. And some parents may also feel that if they only find the right diagnosis, their child will eventually be a top student. I don't think we want to go down that route.

In the early years, parents should be able to discern the child's learning style(s), and if there are any major issues. If issues are minor, just good support and coaching at home is usually sufficient, and it is difficult to diagnose for young kids anyway. Rather than look for a label, I think it's better to just go with what you observe and deal with it. My older girl was eventually diagnosed with ASD, auditory processing issues and dyspraxia. But when she was young, we worked on social skills, coordination and movement, and learning to speak to her so she could follow us better as we could see those were her difficulties. She was never top student material, but she did OK through school. Even after her official diagnosis at 14yo, we just continued to support her ourselves. We are an extreme case due to our circumstances, but I think too early diagnosis (under 10?) is not necessary, and not advisable unless very serious because of the pigeonholing risk.

To add: not that I never scolded and nagged - I did quite a lot in the early years, but my daughter doesn't seem to hold it against me. But my husband reined me in when I got too angry. I started realising her issues even when she was a toddler, but they weren't too serious, and we were coping OK.

[sharonkhoo]

zac's mum\" post_id=\"2131359\" time=\"1711432205\" user_id=\"53606:[quote=\"zac's mum\" post_id=2131359 time=1711432205 user_id=53606]
... But the education system is still having the same principle of “meritocracy” and those who like it so much are those who benefit from it, so no one is going to change it, as far as I can see.

I am still learning how I can support my own child in his education journey. If the system is not rewarding his strengths (and magnifying his weaknesses in math & science) then maybe I need to double up in my counseling before something snaps.[/quote]

I don't think it's realistic to expect meritocracy to be ditched. There isn't any other system that would be better - nepotism? cronyism? plutocracy? bribery? At least merit is a better basis than those.

From my own daughter's journey, what I have had to learn is that someone has to bring up the rear! She is not ever going to do well in any career, as far as I can see. I can only learn to accept it, and help her accept it for herself.

[doodbug]

Take heart - a child’s self esteem and outlook in life are not just shaped by the education system, but parents’ attitudes, love support and encougement matter a lot. A child can grow up with healthy self-esteem and ride out this period where he or she is ‘relatively disadvantaged’ because of being weak in STEM subjects - there are many pathways now and it’s about riding it out, and not being overly discouraged or beaten along the way. I mean in our generation, there are many kids who were disadvantaged due to being terribly weak in Chinese (last time you can’t go to university if you failed Chinese!)


On the other hand, I am also reminded that kids who are thriving academically in schools - this does not necessarily translate to a a smooth transition to university or work, I’ve seen many who are brittle in their self-esteem, mental health etc - it does not guarantee that one will embrace university life or working life. There are many burnt out kids there too, who after 10 to 12 years in the Singapore schooling system, wish for a different course or to slow down in the rat race.

[zac's mum]

slmkhoo\" post_id=\"2131363\" time=\"1711435290\" user_id=\"28674:

I don't think it's realistic to expect meritocracy to be ditched. There isn't any other system that would be better - nepotism? cronyism? plutocracy? bribery? At least merit is a better basis than those.

From my own daughter's journey, what I have had to learn is that someone has to bring up the rear! She is not ever going to do well in any career, as far as I can see. I can only learn to accept it, and help her accept it for herself.

Mind if i ask what u mean by “not ever going to do well in any career”? Is it a matter of finding the right fit?

What if our country learns to embrace the diversity that individuals bring to the table, (whether in the workplace or society)? Can we not teach that in any given group of people, there are an assortment of strengths and weaknesses, but that working together as a team, we can leverage on finding the best type of collaboration to present the best outcome for the project (or whatever task/KPI is required). “May the best team win” versus “may the best individual win” kind of mentality. It may take humility from the academic top to admit that they need help from NT students in areas of EQ, for example. Bribery/favouritism is not necessarily the only option to meritocracy.

[manorway]

zac's mum\" post_id=\"2131365\" time=\"1711437095\" user_id=\"53606:[quote=\"zac's mum\" post_id=2131365 time=1711437095 user_id=53606]
Mind if i ask what u mean by “not ever going to do well in any career”? Is it a matter of finding the right fit?

What if our country learns to embrace the diversity that individuals bring to the table, (whether in the workplace or society)? Can we not teach that in any given group of people, there are an assortment of strengths and weaknesses, but that working together as a team, we can leverage on finding the best type of collaboration to present the best outcome for the project (or whatever task/KPI is required). “May the best team win” versus “may the best individual win” kind of mentality. It may take humility from the academic top to admit that they need help from NT students in areas of EQ, for example. Bribery/favouritism is not necessarily the only option to meritocracy.[/quote]

I see European countries being excellent at embracing the diversity. At workplaces, employers and colleagues are tolerant and very willing to go extra mile to give opportunities to those with disadvantages/challenges. However, it is still a merit based society when it comes to individual promotions and rewards.

Can we really promote everyone in the entire team or department?

[sharonkhoo]

zac's mum\" post_id=\"2131365\" time=\"1711437095\" user_id=\"53606:[quote=\"zac's mum\" post_id=2131365 time=1711437095 user_id=53606]
Mind if i ask what u mean by “not ever going to do well in any career”? Is it a matter of finding the right fit?

What if our country learns to embrace the diversity that individuals bring to the table, (whether in the workplace or society)? Can we not teach that in any given group of people, there are an assortment of strengths and weaknesses, but that working together as a team, we can leverage on finding the best type of collaboration to present the best outcome for the project (or whatever task/KPI is required). “May the best team win” versus “may the best individual win” kind of mentality. It may take humility from the academic top to admit that they need help from NT students in areas of EQ, for example. Bribery/favouritism is not necessarily the only option to meritocracy.[/quote]

No, I don't believe that \"everyone will excel at something, you just need to find it\". That is what some people like to say to combat the old view that people had to conform to a narrow view of success, or were judged failures, but that doesn't match what I see in reality. The reality I see is that some people will always be mediocre, or just plain weak. That doesn't reduce their value as human beings unless we only assign value based on contributions and achievements. Think of some of the autistic people you see in the news - you might say that they excel at filling jars or pasting labels, but really, the truth is that many non-ASD will be able to do the job just as well or better. Of course, there are some geniuses among those with disabilities, with really excellent skills, but they are the minority, not the rule. Rather than \"be the best in (whatever)\", I would say we should aim to be the best we can be, and not mind if we are not better than anyone else.

Take myself as an example - I've done well academically by many people's measure, but I was never at the top, which is the only position that my father would consider \"good enough\". I don't think I excel at anything - but I'm happy that I'm fairly competent at the various things I do. For my daughter, I'm happy that she has a job that she copes with mostly, but she is by no means excelling. And there is nothing that I see that she excels in (maybe one day, but maybe not) - but she is fairly competent at a few things, and we take pride in that. As parents, we of course hope that she will discover that something she really enjoys and can be excellent in, but we accept that it may not happen.