Petition to Review the Singapore Education System
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buds:
ksi:
I see the petition concern is a valid one and I would like MOE to study the issue where the root issues are. We need to promote inclusion in our society instead of keep filtering people out.
Inclusion. Yes. :hi5:
If seen in another perspective, inclusion can also mean to include every child
and not filter out those who under-performs or who don't perform which cud
be due to a variety of reasons. To accept every child with what they can if it
had been their best-est of efforts. Not being academically inclined not
necessarily goes to say they wud be failures in life.
Aiyo...buds...very hard to answer your posts...so many parts... For me, instead of trying so hard to do this inclusion/exclusion game, leave the decision to the parents, parents will understand what is inclusion for their kids.ksi:
Really? It isn't? :scratchhead:When parents shared their children's high score but could not hit max score, it is not necessary about kiasuism.
:siam:
I think you missed Chenon's post on the son's Math paper of 94.5 score and missed the 5-mark question because it was out of text, not taught. I was referring to that. I did not see it as kiasuism, do you? :scratchhead:ksi:
Catch no ball here :skeptical:.If the unfairness is due to difference between tuition n no tuition, the system is wrong. If the difference is due to one can apply n one cannot apply what they hv learnt, then the noise is kiasuism.
:offtopic: You only can catch your own balls :evil: ...oops! ok back to topic... Same case as above, it was a matter of tuition or no tuition for the 5-mark question, so was that fair? If it was taught in school but the child could not apply during the exam and parent still argued about it, then it would be kiasu mindset. In this case, it was testing out of text. It so happened that her son scored 94.5 here, how about the other 30+ kids in the class, if there were other questions they were not able to do carefully or completely, this 5-mark can potentially bring the total score to a poor grade.ksi:
Agree.. :salute:We cannot try to sum up everything with English words and draw a conclusion.
ksi:
Agree.. if time permits, i might see something by the time chubs due for PSLE.Conduct a proper quantitative n qualitative study to draw the proper conclusion.
Or perhaps no PSLE by then.. :rubhands:
haha...it would be named something else.
SSPE - Sec School Placement Exam.ksi:
Yes WE LIKE! :celebrate: And i definitely appreciate his sharings.While we like to hv balanced view in a discussion, it would not be fair to tell parents to be realistic, lower expectation n accept the system.
Nobody is not appreciating, just need to be fair.
Likewise too, it wud not be fair either to tell parents to be unrealistic.
I don't think anyone has the right to do this either, the idea is leave the choice to the parents.
To push boundaries where their child just cannot go. I have seen it for
myself.. and the children truly suffer. Wud not be fair to keep having high
expectations when the child is suffering thru' foundation aspects as it is.. and
not to accept the system? But then again, how not to? :scratchhead:
Seriously speaking, if a child is having foundation type of results, would a sound parent continue to pursue the track of flying so high? Teachers are available to be sound advisers and schools have counsellors who would be able to advise as well.
This part
of the discussion will see no end IMO but i would love to read other balanced
sharings for sure. I try not to put down perspectives of others even though i
have my own in check. It is just nice to hear from all layers of community..
that's all. :grphug:
Agree, no putting down of sharings, just pointing out it is not possible to tell parents to be realistic or unrealistic. In fact the proposal is to present statistics for better understanding of this problem. So far even I am not getting a quantitative feel at national level of how bad the issue is.
I am one who does not have low expectations. I have no expectations.
DDs try to work with the system or around the system.. :evil: and so i
support them by trying to understand the system myself and root for
them up to where they can... whilst observing how collective thinking
can indeed help generate change to what is seen as the race.. hence i
am still reading on to hear as many voices if not all voices from the
ground and consider if i really am gonna sign on that dotted line of
the petition.
I am signing for action of study to be done, none of us will have a real feel as our network is all different.
Not that i don't think it is a good initiative.. a start.. but it's just that
i do think the system has tweaked a bit cos the ministry did hear us
about the initial cry about the stress that at P1 and 2s they hafta sit
for CA1, CA2, SA1, SA2 and all the mthly topical tests.. so they chucked
exams, put in place a supposedly more holistic learning environment thru
teach less learn more.. parents still unhappy.. So, how many times is changing
a system healthy in this case.. cos we'd then be having to adapt to yet
another system which we may not necessarily know will work.
You are right buds! Perhaps nothing need to be done to change the system except to re-implement the current initiatives better ACROSS ALL SCHOOLS!!! It might just be an execution issue but the KPIs part certainly play a part too...so one of the thing is to look into school's KPIs.
In the industry that requires the human touch, it is the individual that makes
the difference... it is that many people that'd make the team.. the combined
effort. So as how to make it work for now, is to at least allow for some hovering
from say Principals or perhaps even education officers to monitor how the
current system in place is running and if it's not running, why and troubleshoot
the areas and the people involved. :evil:
Then the people must be trained better to standardise more uniformly for better quality control
Going back to the thread topic, as for the bell curves come PSLE grading,
i just wish that they would just state an A for an A. Chuck T-score.
Even doing this would be moving a mountain...they must find an alternative to solve the issue they are trying to solve with T-score.
As for testing of questions out of the syllabus, the school(s) have informed
parents that there will be questions (a handful like 3 - 5) in exam papers tt
are meant for streaming creme of the crop, yes.. and so far in our case, they
are in the syllabus.. still within what's covered & it is intentionally set to
challenge eyes and minds, yes.. but that's about it. But then again, my
observations are based only on humble neighbourhood schools only.:oops:
This is not stated for our case but it does not bother me, but probably bothers other parents. Also, is this stated for PSLE exams too? I seem to get the feeling that parents are always shocked by 2-3 tough questions in Math?
Perhaps i'm just a simpleton & try to live life within means and for my children
to work to their max potential and abilities. If they can soar ... well go fly as
far as they can, if not we can still fly kite here.. with whatever kites that are
still available for us.
You simpleton? :laugh: I don't think anyone would agree here, so full of ideas how to be simpleton? :evil: -
I queried a teacher during the Meet The Parent session, about the issue on questions that are "out of scope", ie. the students were not taught how to answer those questions.
Her reply was that there are certain questions in the exams that were designed to "stretch" the students. Her claim was that there are always ways to answer these questions based on what has been taught, it’s either that or one has to extrapolate the learnt concepts to handle these questions.
I guess this would be MOE’s answer as well. It’s all done in the name of "stretching". -
cimman:
To me, out of scope means the concepts are not taught at all. If the concepts are taught, then it is not out of scope. It is application of concepts as there is no way to teach all questions.I queried a teacher during the Meet The Parent session, about the issue on questions that are \"out of scope\", ie. the students were not taught how to answer those questions.
Her reply was that there are certain questions in the exams that were designed to \"stretch\" the students. Her claim was that there are always ways to answer these questions based on what has been taught, it's either that or one has to extrapolate the learnt concepts to handle these questions.
I guess this would be MOE's answer as well. It's all done in the name of \"stretching\".
In Chenon's case, they went to ask the teacher the question in Onsponge and the teacher explicitly said, this kind of question would not be tested, then that was not a fair representation of the exam design, in fact a misguidance. -
I believe that those challenging questions in the PSLE, say in the year 2009, the questions on angles and ‘sweets’ questions are within the syllabus. They are challenging because they are not the usual sums that you can find in any assessment books or top school exam papers. Hence students have to think of the solution based on Maths concept that they have taught in school. Usually in these questions, the students must deduce some ‘hidden’ information from the questions and with this ‘hidden’ information, they can then solve the question easily.
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Actually, seen from an personal perspective, I also find the system quite ok. There are ways to work around it. All I have to do is to look ahead and teach my son what the teachers have no time to teach, but still will test.
I did that this time, and DS is 2nd in class. We lost our footing earlier this year (and was super stressed), but we have an even surer footing now (and are stressed no more). My son is actually quite relaxed because it seems that the worst is over.
Seen from a personal perspective, I also find the system quite good because my kids are doing well in it. One already has a scholarship. One might make it. Of not, she'll still make it to a good uni. The last child is identified as high potential. Not gifted but good enough to be able to enjoy some of the yummy opportunities the system has to offer. All 3 are highly motivated, enjoy learning and love being stretched between CCAs and interesting projects.
Seen from a personal perspective, I have no problems with Teachers either. DS FT was unfriendly and unhelpful. I persisted in being charming and understanding and considerate and respectful. She is slowly warming up to me. DS' last year's teacher and I became such good friends that I went to see her in hospital, lent her books... and she sms-ed me today to know DS' SA1 exam results. When she heard that he is 2nd in class, she was thrilled.
Seen from a personal perspective, I really have nothing to worry about. The worry starts when I think beyond my personal situation. If MY son fails exams because exams test what is not taught in class, then what about other people's children with equivalent intelligence but NO ONE to teach them at home?
Of course parents can individually choose to be less kiasu so that their kids are not stressed. But when we do that, we think only of our own children, no? It's a bit like \"Ok... the public transport is full up, so I will drive. This way, no stress.\" I have a car. I choose to drive to save myself the stress. Every individual with enough resources can afford to make choices.
Parents who can log into this thread to leave a comment, are at least literate enough to be understood, and can afford a computer. We have choices. The picture is different when you are a cleaner earning $800/= a day, and you want a better life for your child. You cannot afford to say \"Let's expect less.\" The family has no buffer. No resources to say... well... if you dun do well, we'll give you some money to start a business. Or it's ok if you only have 'O' levels, we can migrate. If the child doesn't make it, he will be a cleaner too. I know a fellow (my batch) son of a laundry woman who went on to become a President's Scholar. I grew up in a system where the Teachers taught what was needed and so sons of laundry women and cleaners had a ticket out of poverty. I grew up in that system and I am sad that it is no longer true.
When schools don't teach everything they test, the child MUST have tuition to cope and do well. The laundry woman with no money for tuition may have a bright child, but that child will never be like my friend - today a President's Scholar. I think the discussion about stress misses the point. The discussion about how parents should be less kiasu also misses the point.
If PSLE standards are so high that
(1) some schools feel the need to start heuristics in P1 and P2 to help their children cope with PSLE
(2) some teachers have to choose to teach different sets of material to different classes because there is no time to cover all bases for all classes
(3) teachers have no time to mark and give feedback on skills practice in a syllabus that emphasizes skills
(4) textbooks don't document essential process skills in a skills heavy syllabus
then the Possible President's Scholar child of a laundry woman has NO CHANCE in today's system. And no voice to speak his lack of opportunity today because his laundry woman mother cannot write as well as Chenonceau.
I lament that our system has left behind something I always thought important - meritocracy. I lament it because I grew up with it and know people who would be nothing today without it. I have lived in USA and France. I know both countries to be elitist. Rich parents can afford better schools.
Living there, I was proud of being Singaporean and key to that pride was the notion that in Singapore, it didn't matter who you were born to, you would still make it. Is it still true today? I am not so sure. I feel this loss almost as a loss of national identity, as a betrayal of whom we are and what the word \"Singaporean\" stands for. -
PiggyLalala:
I believe that those challenging questions in the PSLE, say in the year 2009, the questions on angles and 'sweets' questions are within the syllabus. They are challenging because they are not the usual sums that you can find in any assessment books or top school exam papers. Hence students have to think of the solution based on Maths concept that they have taught in school. Usually in these questions, the students must deduce some 'hidden' information from the questions and with this 'hidden' information, they can then solve the question easily.
You believe or you have had personal experience?
Because I have examined PSLE questions through and through... plus top school exams... plus assessment books. The new syllabus is a skills heavy syllabus.There are skills you need that are nowhere in the textbooks, but that you need to have been taught and practised.
I examined the homework sheets of my son, compared them with SA1 paper.... homework sheets don't give the skills practice the exam questions require. A couple of weeks before SA1, I even asked the teacher to help solve 2 problem sums, to which Teacher replied \"We have not covered that yet.\" and that same type appeared in SA 1.
Now, I am smart... I teach all myself. -
ksi:
Ummm... sorry, I may have miscommunicated or something was misunderstood... Teacher said that the class had not covered such techniques yet, and there was no time. I was silly enough to myself interpret that it would not come out.To me, out of scope means the concepts are not taught at all. If the concepts are taught, then it is not out of scope. It is application of concepts as there is no way to teach all questions.
In Chenon's case, they went to ask the teacher the question in Onsponge and the teacher explicitly said, this kind of question would not be tested, then that was not a fair representation of the exam design, in fact a misguidance.
Also, I do note that all the topics that come out were taught. What is missing is the Essential Process Skills. These appear neither in the textbooks nor are they required in homework sheets. These are harder to discern because they are hidden. You have to actually attempt to solve the questions and place the working side by side to identify the skills. -
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Chenonceau:
No miscommunication, I understand it is the process skills required because the teacher cannot test a \"Mass\" question if the topic is not taught at all, that I know. So process concept not taught is something acceptable? I don't think so. Science is even more process-skills based. If my child is tested on a process-skill not covered, I would speak to the teacher. In fact, both Math and Science have process-skills paper as part of the teaching syllabus bought together with textbooks, I assume it is the same in all schools?
Ummm... sorry, I may have miscommunicated or something was misunderstood... Teacher said that the class had not covered such techniques yet, and there was no time. I was silly enough to myself interpret that it would not come out.ksi:
To me, out of scope means the concepts are not taught at all. If the concepts are taught, then it is not out of scope. It is application of concepts as there is no way to teach all questions.
In Chenon's case, they went to ask the teacher the question in Onsponge and the teacher explicitly said, this kind of question would not be tested, then that was not a fair representation of the exam design, in fact a misguidance.
Also, I do note that all the topics that come out were taught. What is missing is the Essential Process Skills. These appear neither in the textbooks nor are they required in homework sheets. These are harder to discern because they are hidden. You have to actually attempt to solve the questions and place the working side by side to identify the skills. -
The sad thing is, those people who need help cannot speak up for themselves. Those who can speak up for themselves don’t need help.
I remember this duck rice stall just opposite Vivo City. His children are about as old as my children. I like to frequent the stall because I love the duck his wife makes. He is also very fun to have a conversation with, and he likes to ask my children to play basketball because he believes it makes them tall. He likes to laugh at me for being short. (yet I’m taller than him … :p)
I remember the day his daughter got her PSLE results. He was beaming and happy and told me that he was very happy with the results. He had gone to see the secondary school principal who had told him that her daughter would get a good education in the school. Her PSLE score was very good. He told me. She scored 190+.
He told me that both he and his wife had to work long hours daily. They had no time to teach or get tuition teacher for the two children. They were happy that the daughter made it to sec school. As for the boy who was one year younger, he was not sure. I remember visiting him after the boy took PSLE, but I couldn’t remember his result. His son was the same age as DS1. I vaguely remember him asking me how was my son’s result. I said, "ok". He said his son’s was ok, too. I didn’t want to ask him which school the boy was going to be posted to, because I didn’t want to have to tell him my son’s score or my son’s new school. I didn’t want him to think that we were elitist and not give us bigger bowls of duck rice from then.
What chance does someone like this stall owner have vis-a-vis those who know where and how to get help for his children. Even if he has the money, he would not have the time to spend with the kids or source out good tuition teachers for his children, who might just be as bright as another.
I did not have a privileged background either. But because we did not need tutors or expensive enrichment, I was given equal opportunity in education and sports. Education leveled the playing field for my friends and I in Singapore. In fact, I am no inferior as I conduct businesses and negotiate with business and academic luminaries from any part of the world.
The stall holder’s children reminded me of myself, running around in the market helping my mother. They will never be given the same opportunities as I did. Simply because the education back drop has changed so much. The duck rice seller will never be able to speak up for his children because he wouldn’t even know what opportunities his children missed.
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