Is 15 years old too young to send overseas for studies?
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lovejoypeacce:
Really must consider carefully. Choose what is best for the child.Thanks moms for your valuable comments. I will be going to Auckland tomorrow to see the schools as well as talk to the international deans there.
As parents, there are a lot of issues we need to consider and all your comments are what we have thought of ourselves too...just need to weigh the pros and cons and what we think is best for her...
thanks!
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vlim:
Sorry ... I stii cannot except the idea of sending kid away from us at such young age ..... They need our care and companion and we need them too!
Agree. I guess alot depends on us, parents' own upbringing. For those who experienced independence and left their home country/town at a young age, this will not be an issue. Eg. I have many Malaysian/Indonesian friends who came to Singapore on their own to study at a young age. I believe as parents, these friends will not feel how you (vlim) and I feel about the needs for care & companion. -
2ppaamm:
2ppaamm,I will not leave my child unattended at 15 years old, boy or girl. I am also not willing to give up my rights to bring her up in exchange for an education. Why, because I got scared by my room-mate when I was a postgrad student in US.
This room-mate was about 21 years old from Taiwan. Parents left her there with some relatives since she was 14. Regular kid with good results. Problem is, she will stick all sorts of stickers on the door to remind me not to enter almost every day, while she made out with different men in the room (including one black professor twice her age). I had to look for alternatives to study. Often left out in the cold. She was studying PhD in Literature and we were in one of the top US universities.
You can also imagine how it feels when you wake up seeing a man on the floor next to you! And all these were against the rules, because we were in the dorm!
When her parents visited, she was an angel! She'd bring them around, speak in her polished Taiwanese, and everything else you hope your child would grow up to be.
After that experience, I vowed never to send my kids overseas alone. I tag along no matter what.
Not all kids turn out like that. But one experience is enough to scare me. Don't want to take chances.
I like it very much when you said you are not willing to give up your rights to bring your children up in exchange for an education. Though success is very often defined by society in terms of academic achievements, we have also to consider \"at what price?\".
If I can have my way, I'll rather my children pursue their higher education in Singapore. I have no doubt an overseas tertiary education will give them more exposure, life experiences and open doors. However, I believe if they can do well in Singapore, they will also have lots of opportunities overseas in their careers or post graduate studies when they are older and more matured.
A family member of mine studied in a US uni popular with the Asians. She loved the place so much she had wanted to stay there for good after graduation but was forced to return due to strong objection from parents. According to her, it was so much more relaxing studying there and so much easier to excel compared to the pressure cooker environment here.
The things she shared with me about some of my friends' prosmicuous life style there shocked me. They were the very decent, obedient and bookish type before they went overseas to further their studies. Environment can indeed change someone. Their parents/gf/bf will most likely be in the dark about their loose morals. I can't help thinking about what happened to Annabel Chong (the bright HCJC girl who was notorous in the US), Sufiah Yusof (the child prodigy who was admitted to Oxford at 13), Jonathan Wong (MOE scholar from HCJC) and some others.
Like what you mentioned, not all who went overseas for education turned out like that. But knowing it happened to my acquaintance is enough to scare me and got me worried. -
Fairy:
I'm not sure if there's much of a causal link between studying overseas at a young age and promiscuity. How sure are we that those here and living with their parents aren't behaving that way? Just look at STOMP. And those are just what was caught on camera. Probably just the tip of the iceberg. Some kids are as young as upper primary or lower secondary. Those older often do better at avoiding being caught - they go to budget hotels or do it in a car or behind bushes. And how sure are we that nothing is going on in the hostels in local universities? Yes, there're rules, but violations don't get caught most of the time esp if the roommate is \"co-operative\" like in the case of 2ppaamm. Even if the child live at home, leave in the morning neatly dressed in their school uniform, and return home the same way, many things can happen in between. I've seen kids changing out of their uniform, spraying their hair etc in the malls in the late morning when they should be in school. And the parents are no wiser. How many cases of teenage pregnancies are there here, with girls who live with their parents?
2ppaamm,2ppaamm:
I will not leave my child unattended at 15 years old, boy or girl. I am also not willing to give up my rights to bring her up in exchange for an education. Why, because I got scared by my room-mate when I was a postgrad student in US.
This room-mate was about 21 years old from Taiwan. Parents left her there with some relatives since she was 14. Regular kid with good results. Problem is, she will stick all sorts of stickers on the door to remind me not to enter almost every day, while she made out with different men in the room (including one black professor twice her age). I had to look for alternatives to study. Often left out in the cold. She was studying PhD in Literature and we were in one of the top US universities.
You can also imagine how it feels when you wake up seeing a man on the floor next to you! And all these were against the rules, because we were in the dorm!
When her parents visited, she was an angel! She'd bring them around, speak in her polished Taiwanese, and everything else you hope your child would grow up to be.
After that experience, I vowed never to send my kids overseas alone. I tag along no matter what.
Not all kids turn out like that. But one experience is enough to scare me. Don't want to take chances.
I like it very much when you said you are not willing to give up your rights to bring your children up in exchange for an education. Though success is very often defined by society in terms of academic achievements, we have also to consider \"at what price?\".
If I can have my way, I'll rather my children pursue their higher education in Singapore. I have no doubt an overseas tertiary education will give them more exposure, life experiences and open doors. However, I believe if they can do well in Singapore, they will also have lots of opportunities overseas in their careers or post graduate studies when they are older and more matured.
A family member of mine studied in a US uni popular with the Asians. She loved the place so much she had wanted to stay there for good after graduation but was forced to return due to strong objection from parents. According to her, it was so much more relaxing studying there and so much easier to excel compared to the pressure cooker environment here.
The things she shared with me about some of my friends' prosmicuous life style there shocked me. They were the very decent, obedient and bookish type before they went overseas to further their studies. Environment can indeed change someone. Their parents/gf/bf will most likely be in the dark about their loose morals. I can't help thinking about what happened to Annabel Chong (the bright HCJC girl who was notorous in the US), Sufiah Yusof (the child prodigy who was admitted to Oxford at 13), Jonathan Wong (MOE scholar from HCJC) and some others.
Like what you mentioned, not all who went overseas for education turned out like that. But knowing it happened to my acquaintance is enough to scare me and got me worried.
But I do agree that, at 15 years, the parents should still be very much around for the child. It's a time when they are most easily influenced by peers and very much need the balancing influence from the parents.
But even if they go overseas after their A levels, or later, the same thing can still happen. My cousin had the same experience with her roommate as 2ppaamm when they were both undergraduates aged around 20. The roommate is the daughter of an army general.
Anything can happen at any age. I would think as parents, we train our kids to the best of our ability when they're young and let them go when it's time. We can continue to provide guidance but we should also learn to progressively let go as they grow towards independent young adulthood. -
For me, I think I would tie the whole thing in with developmental age. Usually (but not always), 10 -18 is the age of sexual imprinting. It’s when teenagers learn about sex and explore the way they feel about sex. I’m uncomfortable putting my teenager in a situation where I have no control over sexual imprinting.
Most parents forbid BGR in secondary and JC. I actively encouraged it by asking about crushes and attempts to date, all whilst stressing the consequences of yielding to temptation. There are graphic photos and descriptions of STD patients on the internet… and there was a case of a JC girl, who caught STD from her boyfriend, also in JC. All these are events and examples that can be used to help the teen develop some restraint. There are also newspaper articles. I made it ok to talk about sex, and I frequently talked about sex between my husband and I. Example… "Sigh! He’s an energizer bunny!!" My son will chuckle and my daughter goes "I dun need to know".
I crack risque jokes and as a family, we watch movies that feature adult themes (nope… not porn… but there is enough sex in mainstream movies to create some awareness in teens and pre-teens). This way, I feel that I am in control of their sexual imprinting and in the years between 10 and 18, I can expose them to the issue enough to help them develop their own attitudes to it, without preaching. Watching sexual content in mainstream movies exposes them to feelings they might feel when alone with a boy/girl. Watching them with me ensures that the moment passes without the possibility of yielding to temptation. This creates a sort of psychological inoculation effect. They feel and learn to recognise these urges without danger to themselves. Then, as opportunities arise, I make comments "That character was so stupid. She slept with him on Night 1. No wonder he got stalked." or "I do hope my kids don’t marry someone like that> he has a wife!!" Then I made a pact with my daughter. If she ever felt tempted to have sex, Mommy understands and she can talk to me about it.
As these controlled experiences and informal debriefs add up, the kids form a perspective on human sexuality. By the time, they’re about 17 or 18, they should be about ready to face their own sexuality and make wise decisions about it.
I think 15 is too young. Partly, I enjoy their company too much to wanna let them go at 15. Partly, at that point, I haven’t quite finished watching over their sexual imprinting yet, and if we’re unlucky, or if the girl is very pretty… she’ll get plenty of attention and men tempting her to sin. And she won’t be strong enough to resist because she is still exploring what sex is and its social/health implications.
This said, each child develops differently. A truly precocious child (paired with a wise parent) may well be ready and prepared at 15. Some children develop good judgment earlier. But 15 is too early for my own kids, I think. -
Hi!
She can take here Lonon A/L so u can take care her for two years.After that she will go for university at a matured age. -
Chenonceau:
Very wise thoughts here.For me, I think I would tie the whole thing in with developmental age. Usually (but not always), 10 -18 is the age of sexual imprinting. It's when teenagers learn about sex and explore the way they feel about sex. I'm uncomfortable putting my teenager in a situation where I have no control over sexual imprinting.
Most parents forbid BGR in secondary and JC. I actively encouraged it by asking about crushes and attempts to date, all whilst stressing the consequences of yielding to temptation. There are graphic photos and descriptions of STD patients on the internet... and there was a case of a JC girl, who caught STD from her boyfriend, also in JC. All these are events and examples that can be used to help the teen develop some restraint. There are also newspaper articles. I made it ok to talk about sex, and I frequently talked about sex between my husband and I. Example... \"Sigh! He's an energizer bunny!!\" My son will chuckle and my daughter goes \"I dun need to know\".
I crack risque jokes and as a family, we watch movies that feature adult themes (nope... not porn... but there is enough sex in mainstream movies to create some awareness in teens and pre-teens). This way, I feel that I am in control of their sexual imprinting and in the years between 10 and 18, I can expose them to the issue enough to help them develop their own attitudes to it, without preaching. Watching sexual content in mainstream movies exposes them to feelings they might feel when alone with a boy/girl. Watching them with me ensures that the moment passes without the possibility of yielding to temptation. This creates a sort of psychological inoculation effect. They feel and learn to recognise these urges without danger to themselves. Then, as opportunities arise, I make comments \"That character was so stupid. She slept with him on Night 1. No wonder he got stalked.\" or \"I do hope my kids don't marry someone like that> he has a wife!!\" Then I made a pact with my daughter. If she ever felt tempted to have sex, Mommy understands and she can talk to me about it.
As these controlled experiences and informal debriefs add up, the kids form a perspective on human sexuality. By the time, they're about 17 or 18, they should be about ready to face their own sexuality and make wise decisions about it.
I think 15 is too young. Partly, I enjoy their company too much to wanna let them go at 15. Partly, at that point, I haven't quite finished watching over their sexual imprinting yet, and if we're unlucky, or if the girl is very pretty... she'll get plenty of attention and men tempting her to sin. And she won't be strong enough to resist because she is still exploring what sex is and its social/health implications.
This said, each child develops differently. A truly precocious child (paired with a wise parent) may well be ready and prepared at 15. Some children develop good judgment earlier. But 15 is too early for my own kids, I think.
I too enjoy the company of my children too much to let them go. That's why I'm tagging along even though my son is already 17 and my daughter is also 15. I'm going to be stay with them as a guardian while they study in a foreign country. I have to put my career on hold and leave my husband here, only getting to see him every 3 weeks. And bringing another 2 along.
I guess these are just small sacrifices I believe I have to make, until I feel that they no longer need me around. Not just in sexual guidance, but in all other areas as well. Like Chen, I do discuss my opinions about sex, drugs, moral issues and even fashion, money matters, business acumen, sporting ethics and legal implications with the kids. I enjoy just shopping with the kids, have hi-tea and talk about life in general, instead of ferrying them from tuition to tuition classes. That way, we impart OUR values to them. As it is, we are competing with so much 'noise' from elsewhere: the media, teachers, friends, books and magazines etc. Such influences may or may not be as ideal as we hope them to be. In fact, I don't even want people to teach my children composition, especially Chinese composition because I like my children to learn my writing style, which was passed down from my father. But that's just me.
If we 'give away' our children at such a young age, in their most formative years, how do we hope to influence their thoughts, values, sex and spiritual orientation going forward? I am perhaps a very kiasu mother in this aspect, I drive my children (all 5 of them) everywhere even when they are in the uni, even though I have a full-time job, simply because I want to be part of their lives. I believe my children appreciate that, and I had very few of those instances where they had to lie to me about where they went, or change clothes to portray a different image behind me. I think it is just so hard when we already know so much. It is also great to know their thoughts about what they think of their friends' attitude, sexual behavior, strengths and weaknesses. They then start to reflect with us and we work towards what make sense for them.
I believe freedom given to children can only be reduced and not increased. We let go of our children slowly. But once that degree of freedom is given, it is impossible to get it back. So if we give them total freedom, and when something is amiss, and we try to take some back, it is virtually impossible. That's why I let go very, very slowly. Yet, I also believe in total freedom as long as it is exercised lawfully and ethically. It is such a fine balance to let the children know they have full freedom in deciding certain paths they want to take (e.g. which classes they want to take, which school, how fast/accelerated or slow they want to pursue academically, which CCA, sport, which friends they want to make), and which paths they cannot even consider (e.g. not wise to have bf or gf before certain age, no men in their rooms when they travel with team, no drugs, no lies, no cheating in school, no bullying, no rude remarks to elders, no unlawful acts no matter how strange the law is like chewing gums etc etc).
Parenting is a complicated process. I don't think I know much more than anyone here. Different people have different priorities. For me, academic is certainly not more important than the relationship with the child and life skills. Achievement far more transient than good personality. I want to influence what's important first, then the academic and achievement will fall in place. But that's just me.
Having said these, I can also understand the limited options for a child not given opportunities. I have a friend with 2 kids who did not pass PSLE the first round. In the second round, they did too well to go to Northlight.
Having no option, the parents left with the kids to NZ. They found freedom and opportunities there. The children had a good education and they are now in their late teens. They had equal opportunities as anyone there. Something our country could not afford them. The older is already back for NS. But the sacrifices the parents made were not small.
They moved there as a family, with no job, no PR-ship, no money. The husband worked as a cleaner in graveyard shifts and they stayed in poorly heated rental houses. They suffered. After many years, he is now a manager, and they are PRs. The kids have finished high school and have an option to study in the university.
Every child and every family has different needs. One thing is for sure. As parents, there will be sacrifices. Be prepared to make them. -
Chenonceau:
Not disagreeing with your approach. In fact, I think it's probably the best a parent can do as far as helping the child on sexuality issues is concerned.For me, I think I would tie the whole thing in with developmental age. Usually (but not always), 10 -18 is the age of sexual imprinting. It's when teenagers learn about sex and explore the way they feel about sex. I'm uncomfortable putting my teenager in a situation where I have no control over sexual imprinting.
Most parents forbid BGR in secondary and JC. I actively encouraged it by asking about crushes and attempts to date, all whilst stressing the consequences of yielding to temptation. There are graphic photos and descriptions of STD patients on the internet... and there was a case of a JC girl, who caught STD from her boyfriend, also in JC. All these are events and examples that can be used to help the teen develop some restraint. There are also newspaper articles. I made it ok to talk about sex, and I frequently talked about sex between my husband and I. Example... \"Sigh! He's an energizer bunny!!\" My son will chuckle and my daughter goes \"I dun need to know\".
I crack risque jokes and as a family, we watch movies that feature adult themes (nope... not porn... but there is enough sex in mainstream movies to create some awareness in teens and pre-teens). This way, I feel that I am in control of their sexual imprinting and in the years between 10 and 18, I can expose them to the issue enough to help them develop their own attitudes to it, without preaching. Watching sexual content in mainstream movies exposes them to feelings they might feel when alone with a boy/girl. Watching them with me ensures that the moment passes without the possibility of yielding to temptation. This creates a sort of psychological inoculation effect. They feel and learn to recognise these urges without danger to themselves. Then, as opportunities arise, I make comments \"That character was so stupid. She slept with him on Night 1. No wonder he got stalked.\" or \"I do hope my kids don't marry someone like that> he has a wife!!\" Then I made a pact with my daughter. If she ever felt tempted to have sex, Mommy understands and she can talk to me about it.
As these controlled experiences and informal debriefs add up, the kids form a perspective on human sexuality. By the time, they're about 17 or 18, they should be about ready to face their own sexuality and make wise decisions about it.
I think 15 is too young. Partly, I enjoy their company too much to wanna let them go at 15. Partly, at that point, I haven't quite finished watching over their sexual imprinting yet, and if we're unlucky, or if the girl is very pretty... she'll get plenty of attention and men tempting her to sin. And she won't be strong enough to resist because she is still exploring what sex is and its social/health implications.
This said, each child develops differently. A truly precocious child (paired with a wise parent) may well be ready and prepared at 15. Some children develop good judgment earlier. But 15 is too early for my own kids, I think.
Just wanted to comment on the 2 points which I highlighted in bold.
Firstly, the 2 kids who contracted STD are not alone. In fact, there're no lack of cases of teenage pregnancy / abortion / STD amongst those living at home with their parents, many even younger than JC age. I'm not sure about the value of keeping them at home to prevent such happenings. The reality is, if they want to do it, they will. Whether they're living at home with their parents or studying in a faraway country. Actually, come to think about it, I've yet to hear of any such case with kids I know who are studying overseas on their own. I guess when they are on their own in a foreign land, they learn to be less trusting and to protect themselves. It could also be that only kids who're sufficiently matured gets sent overseas.
Secondly, if a child is tempted to have sex, I'm not sure how many would actually have the wisdom and self-control to stop and talk it out before doing so. It doesn't really matter whether they live at home with the parents.
The other issue I have is the sexuality education in Singapore schools which I feel leaves much to be desired. Sexuality programmes, like those ran by AWARE, taught our kids that it's ok for them to have sex so long as they use a condom. And they did that without consultation with the parents. The values that's being taught is at odds with the values we teach our child at home. It's more difficult to exert a positive influence on a child when they're taught something else in school. -
2ppaamm:
That's why I think you really should be writing a book. I didn't know of any parents who can juggle 5 kids the way you did. I'm just wondering how you managed to go as a guardian. Unlike Singapore, most countries don't allow pei du mama. Definitely not for kids going to college. For the F1 visa for US, they do allow spouse and children to go along, but not parents.
Very wise thoughts here.
I too enjoy the company of my children too much to let them go. That's why I'm tagging along even though my son is already 17 and my daughter is also 15. I'm going to be stay with them as a guardian while they study in a foreign country. I have to put my career on hold and leave my husband here, only getting to see him every 3 weeks. And bringing another 2 along.
I guess these are just small sacrifices I believe I have to make, until I feel that they no longer need me around. Not just in sexual guidance, but in all other areas as well. Like Chen, I do discuss my opinions about sex, drugs, moral issues and even fashion, money matters, business acumen, sporting ethics and legal implications with the kids. I enjoy just shopping with the kids, have hi-tea and talk about life in general, instead of ferrying them from tuition to tuition classes. That way, we impart OUR values to them. As it is, we are competing with so much 'noise' from elsewhere: the media, teachers, friends, books and magazines etc. Such influences may or may not be as ideal as we hope them to be. In fact, I don't even want people to teach my children composition, especially Chinese composition because I like my children to learn my writing style, which was passed down from my father. But that's just me.
If we 'give away' our children at such a young age, in their most formative years, how do we hope to influence their thoughts, values, sex and spiritual orientation going forward? I am perhaps a very kiasu mother in this aspect, I drive my children (all 5 of them) everywhere even when they are in the uni, even though I have a full-time job, simply because I want to be part of their lives. I believe my children appreciate that, and I had very few of those instances where they had to lie to me about where they went, or change clothes to portray a different image behind me. I think it is just so hard when we already know so much. It is also great to know their thoughts about what they think of their friends' attitude, sexual behavior, strengths and weaknesses. They then start to reflect with us and we work towards what make sense for them.
I believe freedom given to children can only be reduced and not increased. We let go of our children slowly. But once that degree of freedom is given, it is impossible to get it back. So if we give them total freedom, and when something is amiss, and we try to take some back, it is virtually impossible. That's why I let go very, very slowly. Yet, I also believe in total freedom as long as it is exercised lawfully and ethically. It is such a fine balance to let the children know they have full freedom in deciding certain paths they want to take (e.g. which classes they want to take, which school, how fast/accelerated or slow they want to pursue academically, which CCA, sport, which friends they want to make), and which paths they cannot even consider (e.g. not wise to have bf or gf before certain age, no men in their rooms when they travel with team, no drugs, no lies, no cheating in school, no bullying, no rude remarks to elders, no unlawful acts no matter how strange the law is like chewing gums etc etc).
Parenting is a complicated process. I don't think I know much more than anyone here. Different people have different priorities. For me, academic is certainly not more important than the relationship with the child and life skills. Achievement far more transient than good personality. I want to influence what's important first, then the academic and achievement will fall in place. But that's just me.
Having said these, I can also understand the limited options for a child not given opportunities. I have a friend with 2 kids who did not pass PSLE the first round. In the second round, they did too well to go to Northlight.
Having no option, the parents left with the kids to NZ. They found freedom and opportunities there. The children had a good education and they are now in their late teens. They had equal opportunities as anyone there. Something our country could not afford them. The older is already back for NS. But the sacrifices the parents made were not small.
They moved there as a family, with no job, no PR-ship, no money. The husband worked as a cleaner in graveyard shifts and they stayed in poorly heated rental houses. They suffered. After many years, he is now a manager, and they are PRs. The kids have finished high school and have an option to study in the university.
Every child and every family has different needs. One thing is for sure. As parents, there will be sacrifices. Be prepared to make them.
I do agree with you that once freedom is given, it's almost impossible to take it back. That's why freedom can only be given slowly and tentatively.
I agree with you that values and personality are more important. Just that I'm not sure keeping the child in Singapore helps, not with some of those things they teach them in our national schools. Sometimes, values can be more effectively taught by others, instead of the parents.
As for sacrifices, I'm not sure it's best for the child if a parent give up their career to go along, unless the family is independently wealthy. While money is not the most important, it's needed to open certain doors for the child. More so if the family has more than 1 child. Your friend is really brave to do what they did. But from a risks - reward perspective, I'm not sure it's the wisest thing to do. It's fortunate that things worked out for them. For me, I think 1 of the worst thing to happen is for the family to run out of money and become unable to support the child's education further. I've seen that happening many times - from Indonesian students during the Asian crisis to applicants for clerical positions who had dropped out of an overseas college due to financial problems.
For a child who is not doing as well academically, going overseas may be a better option if money is not a major concern. It's not just about education. It's also the environment and the peer influence, which may not be too positive in some of the schools here. If the environment overseas is better for the child, and the parents have to stay behind to work in order to support the child financially, I think it's fine for the child to go. Sometimes, the child listen to the parent more when they're away because we learn to focus on what's most important and nag less on the more mundane stuff. -
lovejoypeacce:
Thanks moms for your valuable comments. I will be going to Auckland tomorrow to see the schools as well as talk to the international deans there.
As parents, there are a lot of issues we need to consider and all your comments are what we have thought of ourselves too...just need to weigh the pros and cons and what we think is best for her...
thanks!
hi, are you back?
how's your search for schools in auckland?
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