Intellect or Age Peer?
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Nebbermind:
:scratchhead: So it is still about grades?concern2:
If your kids are in GEP, how do you think it has helped your children compared to if he/she had remained in the mainstream? Would you have opted for your child to jump grade if it had been made easier?
I think it really depends on what we parents expect out of this 3-yr programme.
Are you expecting your kid to score more than 260 if he has been selected? Would you conclude that there's a mistake in the selection if some of the GEP kids scored only 230ish?
What is your goal (not the MOE) if u decide to put your kid thru the 3-yr programme? -
concern2:
I was trying to click on your very small link and it is no longer there. So I suspect perhaps things have changed?Following this topic on accelerated learning, I looked up on GEP:
\"The Gifted Education Programme was first implemented in Singapore in 1984 amid some public concern. It was initiated by the Ministry of Education (MOE) in line with its policy under the New Education System to allow each pupil to learn at his/her own pace. The MOE has a commitment to ensure that the potential of each pupil is recognised, nurtured and developed. It was recognised that there are pupils who are intellectually gifted and that there should be provisions to meet their needs. Beginning with two primary centres and two secondary centres, it has now expanded to nine primary centres (as at October 2004) and was at its peak before the introduction of the Integrated Programme.\"
(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gifted_Education_Programme_%28Singapore%29
(If there is an existing thread on GEP, please copy me the link - thanks in advance)
Has there been any reviews since its implementation on the success of the program me? It's mission states that it is \"to provide leadership in the education of the intellectually gifted. The programme is committed to nurturing gifted individuals to their full potential for the fulfilment of self and the betterment of society.
The vision is to make the Gifted Education Programme a model of excellence in the education of the intellectually gifted. This will be achieved by providing professional expertise and exemplary resources to develop intellectual rigour, humane values and creativity in gifted youths to prepare them for responsible leadership and service to country and society.\"
How has this mission been fulfilled? Has there been any report/review?
I bring up the topic of GEP since it has been set up to cater to the top students, and the exceptionally bright. The program is already supposed to be provided for these children, but society somehow changes itself to try to fit into that system, as most people want to have a winning edge, and the outcome has somewhat been twisted over the years, which results in negative impact that has been mentioned many times in this forum. Yet, it still exists. The fact that it still exists and there is no intention to have it removed does it mean it is successful? How successful? How is its success measured?
If your kids are in GEP, how do you think it has helped your children compared to if he/she had remained in the mainstream? Would you have opted for your child to jump grade if it had been made easier?
I was lured to put my son into GEP solely because of that word \"individual\", and I thought he'll be given a chance to inquire, to ask and to grow. I thought people will understand giftedness and differences. Prior to this, I had refused to send my older kids for testing. I was wrong.
Conclusion after some time in GEP: Tay Eng Soon initiated the GEP in 1984. The Minister felt a compelling need to develop a special programme so as to enable bright children to realise their full potential, believing these children to have characteristics which would disadvantage them in a normal class setting, and in extreme situations lose their intellectual powers altogether, resulting in a loss for the society. [Quoted from http://marklsl.tripod.com/Writings/gifted.htm] The HOD from our GEP school told us he was looking for that ONE or TWO bright sparks among th e cohort each year.
Today: The teachers are more concerned to cover the GEP program syllabus (no individual attention), and they even complain the class is too BIG. Yes, what's the difference between GEP and the other classrooms? Just a different syllabus?
GEP is GIFTED education program. Giftedness is supposed to be a 'natural' thing, yet there are exorbitant courses that rich parents would send their children to, in the hope of gaining admission to GEP. Of course the GEP believes that none of this rubbish can affect the quality of the students chosen into GEP. How naive can this be? How naive can they expect us parents to be? I have conducted classes, and observed GEP kids, there are the gifted ones, the less gifted ones, and the hot housed ones, and the totally no clue about GEP but get there by accident kind. The most pitiful ones are not the hot housed ones, but the ones who are there by accident, or in other words, the accident ones.
Why so? Because the quality of GEP teachers has changed drastically over the years. The GEP teachers used to be trained by overseas instructors and experts in giftedness, they know how to look out for the needs of gifted kids, and understand their idiosyncrasies. Most of these teachers have already retired. The current teachers are like every other teacher in MOE, trained in NIE, and the only difference is that they report to the GEP branch and not the principal. This is good and bad. Good, because they supposedly know the GEP syllabus better. Bad, because they give me the feel that they are not totally 'afraid' or accountable to the principal, and always seem to have some kind of backup. Again, I am no school teacher, so I'm not sure if I am totally correct about their reporting structure. They sure gave me this feeling when I spoke to them.
From my observation, GEP is a place where the best schooled and the best home supported kids do the best. Giftedness has little to do with their required performance in the program. The Maths is \"enrichment\" style, but yet covers topics at about Sec 3 level. I have no clue what their English is trying to achieve - maybe because they placed a Maths teacher to teach English for my son's case - yes it happens in GEP, and I spot grammatical errors, poor vocab and random marking. Even so, I kept mum, for I was not interested in the coveted 'GEP syllabus', I was interested in the friends he can mix with, who are supposed to be more 'like-minded', and indeed my son loves his friends.
They used to select kids based on either Maths or English ability, now you have to be good in both to be selected. I venture to guess that it is because it easier to cover the 'standard GEP syllabus'? Or maybe other GEP parents know the real reasons why a student who is more gifted in English than a GEP child should not deserve to be given enrichment in English just because he is not as good in Math?
Parents are another interesting group of folks in GEP. Very committed, super kiasu, as expected. They are probably the best kind of parents in any society or any country, for they have the highest chance to raise compliant, obedient kids. They nurture and educate their children well, and it is no surprise that children from the same family all end up in GEP. However, just like in the mainstream, a lot of work are clearly done by parents. Projects brought into class are stunning and attention to the finest details. Some parents are lawyers and their children's essays and projects read like post graduate thesis. And it is common knowledge parents are very involved. For the 'accident' kind, the parents leave their children to strive and their work will often pale against such well supported kids. After all, how can you 'fight' with an adult's work. So yes, though the curve might not be bell, the bell-curve effect is also in GEP, and across 9 schools.
So if they are naturally smart, there should not be need for tuition? My son found it so hard to organize parties because everyone has at least 2 tuition and no time to play. Now this leads to another problem to those who did not get help throughout their first 3 years in school and 'accidentally' got into GEP. The latter has no clue how to write an essay that is acceptable in the Singaporean style, or the right methodologies to handle school work. One feature of gifted kids, afterall, is spontaneity. That is not evident in every GEP kid. Another very common trait is their sense of humour, which is, as we know, not very well accepted as well in all our schools. Teachers in school measure the kids' 'attitude' (another important feature in GEP) by how compliant the kid is. They hide anything they do not like under this abstract 'attitude' thingy. It is supposed to be attitude towards enrichment, but who's to define what that is. So it is never defined, but that forms an important rubric to a GEP child's performance. So, the more hot-housed, the more tamed you are, the higher you'll score in this department. Nothing to do with giftedness or IQ again.
I can rant forever, but I won't because I believe such a system should exist. But it is not for me or my children, or for that matter any child who is more than moderately gifted (<top 0.5%). It is for the high ability students. Children whose families are willing to cram their kids, and parents who find it important for their children to become doctors and lawyers. Families who have just one or two kids and can attend to their kids' every little need in school, including getting buying all their stationery, checking their schoolbags, help out with projects, rehearse their speech etc etc. I don't have that support structure in place (and why should I do that). My kids survive the school system pretty much on their own. My focus is not that.
My focus is to help my children find their passion and assist them realize their potential. The GEP should really be renamed HAP, and they should really pick their students from the top students in each school based upon their school results and their behavior in school. As it is, GEP misleads many families with naturally bright kids, who really do not mind being just ordinary people (no need for label, gifted or not) but doing extraordinary things. Totally different target.
As correctly pointed out by Dr Tay, gifted kids need special attention and help, and by putting them in today's GEP (with mostly hot housed kids) and expect them to behave like the rest of the HA learners, and not giving them skills to survive as gifted INDIVIDUALS, more harm than good is done. Really gifted children learn best on their own often without instructions, the GEP syllabus has little value when the mindset and environment is wrong.
Just my take, and I know some will surely stone me... :scared: -
The link did not work because the closing bracket is missing when you clicked on the link. Here is the new link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gifted_Education_Programme_%28Singapore%29 -
I'm not a child psychologist so I know little about other kids... gifted or non-gifted. Let us assume that my 2 are NOT gifted. The kind of highly flexible, student centric teaching and self-directed learning that should ideally bring out the best talents in the gifted child, is also highly effective for non-gifted children, no?
The human spirit takes natural joy in learning and creation. No matter our intelligence, we have a natural curiosity about the world and we form certain emotional chemistries with bodies of knowledge. I know a man with primary school education who formed a deep bond with stone work. He has been at it for 25 years and never stops learning... http://petunialee.blogspot.com/2010/01/christian-lhermite-stone-cutter.html.
I don't think DS is gifted at all. I think he has strange interests that lead him deep down some learning paths that would bore me to tears but because I taught him by making HIM the centre (not the syllabus), he hops ahead of his peers in exactly these areas... unfortunately, these areas don't count towards grades.
What I want to say is that any child benefits from such teaching... not just the gifted. And I tend to agree with 2ppaamm that there is no way you can teach a truly gifted child. Children like Einstein and Thomas Edison could not abide teaching. They discovered the world on their own, and went down paths that parents and teachers could not follow. In the areas that enthuse my DS (who isn't very bright), he learns and forces me to accompany him... because I HAVE no interest nor aptitude. Even in school subjects like Chinese and Math, I am already far below his capability.
Since my son is just a normal child, he is amenable to teaching by his teachers. It is I who refuse to teach him and force him to discover because these are areas I know little about. See... even a normal child can accomplish quite a bit when made to discover things for himself.
This is the essence of Teach Less Learn More. However, it presupposes a wealth of independent learning materials. If the Teacher does not teach, there must be other material to discover and explore. -
Chenonceau:
I can't agree more with Chen.I'm not a child psychologist so I know little about other kids... gifted or non-gifted. Let us assume that my 2 are NOT gifted. The kind of highly flexible, student centric teaching and self-directed learning that should ideally bring out the best talents in the gifted child, is also highly effective for non-gifted children, no?
The human spirit takes natural joy in learning and creation. No matter our intelligence, we have a natural curiosity about the world and we form certain emotional chemistries with bodies of knowledge. I know a man with primary school education who formed a deep bond with stone work. He has been at it for 25 years and never stops learning... http://petunialee.blogspot.com/2010/01/christian-lhermite-stone-cutter.html.
I don't think DS is gifted at all. I think he has strange interests that lead him deep down some learning paths that would bore me to tears but because I teach him by making HIM the centre (not the syllabus), he hops ahead of his peers in exactly these areas... unfortunately, these areas don't count towards grades.
What I want to say is that any child benefits from such teaching... not just the gifted.
Ok, found that link on wiki. The history reads:
The Gifted Education Programme was first implemented in Singapore in 1984 amid some public concern. It was initiated by the Ministry of Education (MOE) in line with its policy under the New Education System to allow each pupil to learn at his/her own pace. Not true, there's a common syllabus. May be some pull out cases (very few) but the teachers are more concerned with covering the GEP syllabus.
But I respect the noble effort. I believe a child, gifted or not should always be allowed to learn at his/her own pace, at whatever he wills. All kids are curious, all kids want to learn. -
So, in 1984, there was a public concern and MOE put a New Education System in place. Now we have concerns again leh… wonder if a Newer Education System can be put in place.
Look, times have changed. Our country is now richer, with more educated parents and this is the information age, children are knowledgeable, and many more knowledgeable than their teachers. Technology has changed, newer pedagogy have come about and more research has been done. Surely we can come up with a newer system that is better for all our kids? Not just the gifted ones, but everyone. Surely, we have enough reserves to invest in the most important resources of all? -
2ppaamm:
2ppaamm, you are 2ppaamm the Lionheart. I dare not even dream of that day. I feel so prosaic writing next to you because all I dare ask for is better textbooks and other learning resources so that my DS can discover learning at his own pace. Yup... 2ppaamm the Lionheart.So, in 1984, there was a public concern and MOE put a New Education System in place. Now we have concerns again leh... wonder if a Newer Education System can be put in place.
Look, times have changed. Our country is now richer, with more educated parents and this is the information age, children are knowledgeable, and many more knowledgeable than their teachers. Technology has changed, newer pedagogy have come about and more research has been done. Surely we can come up with a newer system that is better for all our kids? Not just the gifted ones, but everyone. Surely, we have enough reserves to invest in the most important resources of all?
:snuggles: :love: -
Chenonceau:
Haha! I am just reading about the article on your blog and I am really impressed, but I am not surprised!
2ppaamm, you are 2ppaamm the Lionheart. I dare not even dream of that day. I feel so prosaic writing next to you because all I dare ask for is better textbooks and other learning resources so that my DS can discover learning at his own pace. Yup... 2ppaamm the Lionheart.2ppaamm:
So, in 1984, there was a public concern and MOE put a New Education System in place. Now we have concerns again leh... wonder if a Newer Education System can be put in place.
Look, times have changed. Our country is now richer, with more educated parents and this is the information age, children are knowledgeable, and many more knowledgeable than their teachers. Technology has changed, newer pedagogy have come about and more research has been done. Surely we can come up with a newer system that is better for all our kids? Not just the gifted ones, but everyone. Surely, we have enough reserves to invest in the most important resources of all?
:snuggles: :love:
I think you can read a bit of my mind. Yes, I am trying to do something about it, and yes, I am trying to gather enough so as to see if I can make a change. And yes, I am looking to gather resources to write some textbooks! And not the normal textbooks, but books that will change the way we educate forever.
But I cannot do this alone. And, I am not interested to get people to just write just textbooks. I want to help children to have their individualized education system. Looking for a solution. If you guys will tell me how, and if you would tell me what you want/need/dream of. -
DS3 shown great interest in learning ever since he could read at 2 years old. He looked forward to going to school so much that whenever he past by his brother's former Kindergarten his eyes would glow. When I refused to buy assessment books for him to do, he would cry. It was only when he was in K2 that I bought them for him to prepare him for Primary school. My reason is simple, I don't want him to move too much ahead of his peers. School work for the first 3 years were too easy for him. I only allow him to do assessments that were a year ahead of his peers; ie. he did P2 assessment when he was in P1. He has no tuition and as assessment books were too easy for him and he got bored subsequently, he spent his time reading. When he made it to the 2nd round of the GEP test, I was pleasantly surprised. He claimed that he's half gifted though he didn't make it to the GEP program. He's been cruising along in his schoolwork and I was only concerned when he needed to take the PSLE. Next year, he'll be sitting for his O levels and I'm now shifting to higher gear by starting to apply pressure on him. Still, DS3 is living a carefree life, doing the minimum and enjoying what he's doing. He could have performed much better in school if I didn't put a brake on his 'progress' but I choose to let him enjoy his childhood rather to stress himself out to be in the top of his cohort. I may sound like a bad mummy but I don't want him to be too 'competitive' and get burnt out in the long run.
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tutormum:
DS3 shown great interest in learning ever since he could read at 2 years old. He looked forward to going to school so much that whenever he past by his brother's former Kindergarten his eyes would glow. When I refused to buy assessment books for him to do, he would cry. It was only when he was in K2 that I bought them for him to prepare him for Primary school. My reason is simple, I don't want him to move too much ahead of his peers. School work for the first 3 years were too easy for him. I only allow him to do assessments that were a year ahead of his peers; ie. he did P2 assessment when he was in P1. He has no tuition and as assessment books were too easy for him and he got bored subsequently, he spent his time reading. When he made it to the 2nd round of the GEP test, I was pleasantly surprised. He claimed that he's half gifted though he didn't make it to the GEP program. He's been cruising along in his schoolwork and I was only concerned when he needed to take the PSLE. Next year, he'll be sitting for his O levels and I'm now shifting to higher gear by starting to apply pressure on him. Still, DS3 is living a carefree life, doing the minimum and enjoying what he's doing. He could have performed much better in school if I didn't put a brake on his 'progress' but I choose to let him enjoy his childhood rather to stress himself out to be in the top of his cohort. I may sound like a bad mummy but I don't want him to be too 'competitive' and get burnt out in the long run.
I admire what you do, and I am sure your DS3 is doing well and enjoying himself. But I am curious why you benchmark him against his cohort and do not want him to be 'too much ahead of his peers'? Why does that matter? By peers we are talking about his age peers. Now, I understand this is like so long ago (more than a decade), but would you have done differently today?
btw, I had the same thinking as you with my older children, and I did also hold them back a few years. My son (who should be a year or two older than your DS3) was held back 3 years before I finally relented and sent him to the university to pursue his passion and dream. Today, he still tells me that was the best thing that has happened to him, to pursue his dreams at a young age, to have friends who understand how he thinks, to discuss with them about issues others find strange. He still keeps his age peers friends, and go out with them, trains with them, and go for overseas trips, and even parties. Now, they are all talking about getting the driver's license and getting prepared for the army next year.
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