Child Underperforms Because Tested Above Cognitive Level
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Chenonceau:
I remember when my DD2 came back with marks in the range of 70s & 80s, my initial reaction was \"it's ok\" until I saw that in comparison to her P1 cohort, she's at the bottom 20 percentile. At that time she had only tuition for chinese. Come P2, she's Band 2 for her subjects across the board and she's hitting bottom 10 percentile. Now, as a parent at P3 level, I'm beginning to hit panic button. So in P3 I started to send her for Maths tuition.
(1) PSLE tests and grades at levels beyond Primary level (not documented in textbooks... nor taught at school) forcing schools to raise testing standards at every level all the way down to P1
Would you, or won't you worry if your child were pulling in FAIL grades in P2 for any subject, as was reported in the article?
None of the teachers actually noticed if she has a learning difficulty or thought she was \"stupid\" or \"lazy\" but only label \"careless\", \"need more work\". What can I as a parent do with general feedback?
DD's school provides the range of marks for every subject so we get a good sense of how difficult a paper is vis-a-vis the students' ability. At P4, I remembered the highest score for science for the entire level was 84 marks - so that to me was a red flag about how the school is testing beyond a child's ability.
By P4, failing has become a norm for DD and passing was a moment to rejoice. Again no teacher asked me to send my child for psychological testing. It was only upon speaking with a friend that I found out DD's symptoms sound like my friend's child and finally, I found out DD had some learning difficulties and got that confirmed with psychological testing.
Granted that DD had learning issues but I think it's very hard to detect learning difficulties at P1 or P2 levels and it seems to be the \"norm\" to expect pupils to perform at the 90s range at P1 & P2 level. Schools have a way of making parents panic by giving you comparison data about your child. Although I didn't over-react to such data, I can't help but feel how many parents would be panicking if their child is measured against their peers after every exam. Honestly, what are parents supposed to do if faced with such comparative data? -
Deminc... I don't disagree with you. I picked up a book today about how education actually doesn't unlock our talents. For many, a good education locks it away. How come so many children are creative? And so few adults are?
As you said, there is such a thing as too much education. The writer asserts the following points...
(1) University admission criteria (and the narrow band of skills they value) have influenced how many parents think of IQ.
(2) IQ testing itself explores a narrow band of skills and calls it Intelligence hence an ITE grad who can do magic with a blowtorch... whilst scoring low in academics and IQ is NOT intelligent. By our narrow definition of intelligence, this guy is really dumb because he left school at 14 to work in construction http://petunialee.blogspot.com/2010/01/christian-lhermite-stone-cutter.html
(3) There are many PhDs who can't find a job.
When I write in this forum, I am not trying encourage parents to go up the vortex of enrichment. I am trying to reverse the trend by encouraging schools to REALISE that they must not reinforce such parental behaviors by constantly following the bar set by parents and their expensive enrichment.
I must make clear that I've never believed in tuition/enrichment nor even extra help for my kids. Till NOW, DS has no enrichment. He told me he was bored with practice papers. His exams are in 2 weeks. I told him \"Ok... no more practices till AFTER exams. I don't care what the results will be but we will play and rot till then.\" He is IN the system and we have no choice but to help him do as well as he can. To persevere and do his best. But I am also mindful that he has emotional needs and a right to a HAPPY childhood. When push comes to shove and I have to make a choice between high scores and a happy child, I make the choice for a happy and well-balanced child. Again and again.
However, where I disagree with you is that I think it a fallacy to think that only parents are to blame. Parents may have started it. That I agree. But the schools don't have to be sucked along. MOE can decide that no matter how far ahead of the bar enrichment kids are, the mainstream exams will look sane.
This means that parents like me don't have to play catch up. More importantly, it means that children with no access to enrichment don't get beaten down.
Like I said before, my DS has ME. I am here to patch him up and let him know that even if he fails Chinese (after trying his best) I will be proud of him. Many children go home to scoldings and canings when results are poor. Many children bear with relatives' comparisons of \"Sister is smarter than Brother\" without a buffer. My DS goes through that every CNY. Like a Mother Wolf, I glare at ANYONE who dares even intimate that DS is a lesser person than DD. All relatives know that they will have to deal with me if they unwittingly make my son feel like a lesser person for not doing as well as his sister academically. But not every child has a mother as sensitive to psychological priming as I am. Not many parents will guard against notions and ideas that disappear into the ether of conversation, but lodge firmly in a child's mind.
Again and again, I have parents bring me children who are not motivated. I work with each pair. Invariably, the child is not working because he is demoralized... and the set of motivation strategies I coach to the parent are just those aimed at improving self-efficacy and self-concept... and giving hope. There was nothing wrong with the child. Just a normal playful child who has decided that he/she is dumb.
The SYSTEM must stop following the enrichment parents. The SYSTEM must stop rewarding the efforts of all this enrichment by providing kids with enrichment the highest marks. If exams are set such that kids can get 100% without enrichment, many of the kids that do go for enrichment would find it a waste of time. Go also 100%. Don't go also 100%. So why go? Let those enriched kids who wanna move ahead skip levels. But keep the tests and exams within the levels appropriate to that level so that more kids can feel good about themselves.
We have come to a point where parents and more parents are sucked into this vortex. The only solution is for the system to take a stand and stop testing beyond what they teach, regardless of the fact that ENRICHMENT PARENTS started this, regardless of the fact that ENRICHMENT PARENTS started this vortex.
Certainly, many trees in the forest are sick. But we need a forest wide solution to prevent more trees from getting sick. You are fighting it, deminc. You speak out against these trees but the solution we need is forest-wide, not tree-specific. If we don't unite and lobby for a systemic STOP to this sort of testing, it may be YOU, in a few years who will fall to the contagion too... or else, do like me, explore education abroad, and homeschooling.
But the day we relocate for the sake of our grandchildren, I know that I have given up hope for Singapore, and I would be sad to leave behind children who aren't as lucky as mine, or yours. -
autumnbronze:
Again, I am not disagreeing. I again reiterate that I seriously wondered if I should put my son in Carpentry in ITE because I see a dearth of Singaporean carpenters and for sure the skills would be in demand (and making a living would not be an issue).Just want to share that I have seen two of my DH's cousins with dismal PSLE results due to unfavorable family circumstances, flourish after moving on to Uni and Poly. The former was a NT kid. After his NS, his mom sent him to Australia to study and he is graduating this year. He has been offered a job there as well. Initially filled with low self esteem, he now carries himself and speaks well, has beefed up (ie lifts weights) and speaks with a cute Australian twang.
But why should we accept a system that puts the 90% of children through experiences that tell them they're no good when clearly, once they are out of the system, they show they can BE good? Not everyone of these kids have access parents who will hug them and say \"It's ok\".
Some parents think that I am doing this because I can't get over my son failing in P5. I have and we have. He is no longer failing AND at that time, I made sure I told him that it was not his fault, and that he was not dumb. He didn't believe me because his concrete experience showed him something else. I had to SHOW him. And I did.
So, we are fine.
But when the SYSTEM reinforces the actions of parents who enrich by giving these enriched kids the top scores, the system feeds the enrichment frenzy. It is as simple as training a dog to use the pee tray by reinforcing his behavior with a treat. Stop reinforcing these behaviors and they will disappear. The diehards of enrichment who believe in pushing ahead, can then set up a private school and all go there so their kids can all do nothing academics but mainstream schools for the populace should stay sane. -
Chenonceau:
It cannot be the parents' fault alone when no one is putting a gun to MOE's head to say \"Test beyond the cognitive level or else...\" In fact, again and again, in parliament and in this forum, so many are saying... Don't test beyond cognitive levels... so our kids can have a normal childhood.Irene Tham's article in the Straits Times today got me thinking about the practice in schools of testing beyond the current year syllabus. I understood from the article that...
It's The Parent's Fault
Parents who send kids to enrichment FORCE Teachers to test at ever higher levels.
No one is FORCING MOE to test high. I am in effect trying to lobby MOE to test reasonably and to NOT follow the bar set by enriched kids. -
deminc:
btw, before the child fails, there are already a lot of \"history\" to dig through and red flags. The failing would not have come as a surprise. To worry or not depends on whether the child has been properly taught.
Not everyone has a Mother like you, who will, when the time comes have the time and wisdom to pick up these alerts.deminc:
The choice of school does matter. Neighbourhood schools will do more teaching to help a child who enters school without being able to read or write. If you have a late-bloomer, or if you didn't prepare your child for P1, it's better to opt for a neighbourhood school and ask around to get a recommended patient teacher to work with him in class.
Chongfu and Qihua are neighbourhood schools that provide excellent resources to help their kids. My son's neighbourhood school does not. On the other hand Nanyang and Catholic High have lovely materials and they are not neighbourhood schools. -
Chenonceau:
Chenonceau, I WAS riled up when I read that in the report - although the writer attributed that idea (ie Parents who send kids to enrichment FORCE Teachers to test at ever higher levels) to \"psychologists\". [ How come she didn’t interview you ?? I would have loved to see your views in mainstream media.Irene Tham's article in the Straits Times today got me thinking about the practice in schools of testing beyond the current year syllabus. I understood from the article that...
It's The Parent's Fault
Parents who send kids to enrichment FORCE Teachers to test at ever higher levels.
....
Would you, or won't you worry if your child were pulling in FAIL grades in P2 for any subject, as was reported in the article?
She made it sound like it was an “accepted stance of psychologists” :mad: lending it a semblance of credence.]
I'm not sure anyone can pinpoint with certainty which was the chicken and which was the egg, but I did start off in the system well content to let the teachers/textbooks do the teaching. My kids are obedient and diligent, they did their homework , they did what they were told [both by teachers and parents]-- I really did see my job in their learning journey as cuddling up to read together and boiling chicken soup during exam week! It was a painful landing for me when I realised the gap between taught and tested was significant.
DD1 in P2 could not do \"stack up sums\" in her first term when everyone else in her class could. Was she dumber than the rest? Not in my opinion, even though she is a late December kid. After she was seen struggling, she was called up to the teacher's desk and the first question she was asked was \" Do you have tuition for math\"? Why this was the teacher's first response baffles me to this day but my DD1 stood for an hour next to her teacher to learn how to do stack up addition. I did not learn of this from DD1 - bless her little soul -- she never complained; a mum pulled me aside at a birthday party both our girls attended and asked if I knew my daughter was struggling. Can you imagine how it broke my heart?
I started getting more information and while the teachers were lovely and caring in other aspects of school, it was obvious to me that (a) my girls could not bridge the gap on their own and (b) no one else was picking up this role for various reasons - so I took a deep breath and jumped in. Did whatever it took cos I knew the genetic pool wasn't bad but left on their own in the system, they would be lagging and that did not reflect their potential.
To answer your question - would I be worried if any of my DDs had failed any subject in P2? Honestly, yes - failing is a bit away from \"not doing well\". Anyway, we come from what forumners have classified as an \"easy exam paper\" school, so it would definitely raise some alarm bells because the testing at higher cognitive levels should have resulted in a poorer grade like one in the 60s but not a fail mark based on my assessment of my DDs.
In life, what is the PSLE grade? Nothing much-- we do not look at this score in our organisation when we employ, but we are well aware of the university bell curve results for our industry and where 50%+ of the yearly cohort take home an upper degree [another symptom of marking to the curve, not necessarily better quality IMHO], we do use the second upper as a policy for the granting of interviews. After you're in through the door though, everything depends on your performance. The slate is wiped clean and how you deal with everything on the job is what counts. We have had top 1% students flunking out on the job and others with less stellar grades powering to the top.
So for some who wish to make getting that foot into the door easier for their kids, they would probably think to push the kids to meet the mark which has been raised high by person or persons unknown and they would be worried - very worried.
There still exists other options -- since nothing is cast in stone -- but society can be very unkind and both parents and kids need to be resilient in the face of nay-sayers in the society.
The final decision to worry/to push or not, should however be child-centric - who the blessed bundle of joy that is your child is and what works best for them.
I also beg to differ with the ST writer’s take about what the education system sets out to do; she said that it was \"to impart the joy of learning\". I think she is very young.... After 8 years in it for my 2DDs, the kindest I can be is to say that we didn’t see this as an obvious aim as it was delivered to us. :sad: -
:siam:
IMHO,our education system is geting tougher and tougher cos we concerned/kiasu parents prepared well for the level.cos we wanted our child to survive in the school.Then all the kids do well then they set the paper harder.Its a vicious cycle.As Asians we care our family than individual.In Singapore most of the parents are educated.
In the Dec holiday I taught systems to my son.When the T started to teach system almost all the kids learnt already.T said bring the Interaction to Teach.
:siam: -
psle2011mum:
:hi5: agree with u, psle2011mum, esp the part on resilience. Apart from teaching the right values to our children, we also need to cultivate mental strength as well.
......
There still exists other options -- since nothing is cast in stone -- but society can be very unkind and both parents and kids need to be resilient in the face of nay-sayers in the society.
The final decision to worry/to push or not, should however be child-centric - who the blessed bundle of joy that is your child is and what works best for them.
The recent episode where 2 promising young ladies committed suicide made me feel very sad. Makes me wonder what is going on in their lives and what is going through their minds when they did the deed. Life is really more than just getting As, and yet society sometimes measure us by how many As we get in sch. -
When the SYSTEM reinforces the actions of parents who enrich by testing to the abilities of enriched kids and thus, giving these enriched kids the top scores... the SYSTEM feeds/reinforces the enrichment frenzy. It is as simple as training a dog to use the pee tray by reinforcing his behavior with a treat.
Stop reinforcing these behaviors and much of it will disappear.
The diehards of enrichment who believe in pushing ahead, can then set up a private school and all go there so their kids can all do nothing academics, but mainstream schools for the populace should stay sane... and provide children with an environment where they can learn that they have worth (without parents at home having to keep affirming them daily... in order to balance out the experiences of failure in school). Because simply, not many parents have the kind of time I have. -
Chenonceau:
When the SYSTEM reinforces the actions of parents who enrich by testing to the abilities of enriched kids and thus, giving these enriched kids the top scores... the SYSTEM feeds/reinforces the enrichment frenzy. It is as simple as training a dog to use the pee tray by reinforcing his behavior with a treat.
:goodpost: Chen. Totally agree with you on this.
It becomes a vicious cycle when parents, schools, society perpetuate this frenzy. And the irony is that the ones whom we think we are trying to help are the little ones who suffer in the process.
Parents put their kids in tuition or enrichment centers because they don't want their kids to lose out to their peers or fall too much behind.
Schools/ teachers become over zealous in their testing methods and teaching curriculum coz they feel that they must be one-up over their competitors. And if schools don't perform according to parents \"standards\", parents complain.Chenonceau:
Think this one very hard to achieve lehStop reinforcing these behaviors and much of it will disappear.
:gloomy: Takes more than just a mindset change to shift behavior and societal expectations.
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