Child Underperforms Because Tested Above Cognitive Level

[Chenonceau]

wonderm:

Sorry to confuse you. I edited my post to make it clearer but you were very fast to respond

No, I am not saying everything is perfectly fine today even though some of us did not have as bad an experience as our kids were not tested beyond cognitive level. Challenging questions in school exam papers, yes; but nothing that was not covered in terms of concepts needed to solve the problem. I can emphatize with what you guys are experiencing though.

I was just thinking the issue here may not be the availabilty or even access to good resources. In my view, it is more with helping the parents/chidlren to identify which are the suitable resources for them. I was thinking if we expect MOE to provide the recommendation list, it would be a super long list since they have to cater to the needs of everyone and be fair to all resources in the market. It would be of more help to the parents to have the child's teacher making that recommendation in my view.

Yeah... plenty of implementation nitty gritties to consider. Would this not overload Teachers (who already can't spell properly... and themselves must ask kids for tuition resources)? But yes... these are important details to think through.

Thanks for clarifying!!

[corneyAmber]

Chenonceau:

wonderm:

I was thinking how is it possible for MOE or schools to include a list of recommended resources since there are so many in the market and more coming out all the time. A good resource for one may not be ideal for another child. It would have to be a very long list to be fair, and then parents would be confused still?

In any case, all the best to those of you having PSLE kids this year! Hang on there, things will get much better once the children are in Sec schools.

Actually ksi is asking for a list of recommended resources, which you don't think necessary because not possible for schools to do that. So... really, your position is that everything is perfectly fine and we really should not complain?

I'm a bit confused.

Actually wonderm brought out a valid point. Since my suggestion is a simplistic one, it can be further refined. To me, as long as the REDUCED(I don't expect a long list for effectiveness) recommended list(as opposed to the open bookshelf of Popular) is given, it can further be streamlined by the already streamed classes in the school. That is to say, there can be a list for HA kids, a list for All others and a list for the foundation kids, to help them how to scale. Alternatively, all recommendation can be published and put into these categories and make it transparent to parents. If parents with children in foundation want to choose the HA books for their children, they have to accept the outcome they see in their children's progress.

[Chenonceau]

ksi:

Chenonceau:

[quote=\"wonderm\"]
I was thinking how is it possible for MOE or schools to include a list of recommended resources since there are so many in the market and more coming out all the time. A good resource for one may not be ideal for another child. It would have to be a very long list to be fair, and then parents would be confused still?

In any case, all the best to those of you having PSLE kids this year! Hang on there, things will get much better once the children are in Sec schools.

Actually ksi is asking for a list of recommended resources, which you don't think necessary because not possible for schools to do that. So... really, your position is that everything is perfectly fine and we really should not complain?

I'm a bit confused.

Actually wonderm brought out a valid point. Since my suggestion is a simplistic one, it can be further refined. To me, as long as the REDUCED(I don't expect a long list for effectiveness) recommended list(as opposed to the open bookshelf of Popular) is given, it can further be streamlined by the already streamed classes in the school. That is to say, there can be a list for HA kids, a list for All others and a list for the foundation kids, to help them how to scale. Alternatively, all recommendation can be published and put into these categories and make it transparent to parents. If parents with children in foundation want to choose the HA books for their children, they have to accept the outcome they see in their children's progress.[/quote]Nice refinement!! I'll leave you ladies to it. Then maybe these books can be paid for with Edusave to help out those who can't afford?

Gotta run now. Taaaaaaaaaa!

[wonderm]

Chenonceau:

Yeah... plenty of implementation nitty gritties to consider. Would this not overload Teachers (who already can't spell properly... and themselves must ask kids for tuition resources)? But yes... these are important details to think through.

Thanks for clarifying!!

Whether it will \"overload teachers\" - I suppose if more children can self learn with good resources like your ds, then teachers need not have so many supplementary classes, hence less workload?

English teachers who can't spell properly - I suppose this is another problem as some of you have already discussed.

Yes, it is a complex situation with one issue linked with another.

[corneyAmber]

KSP:

Hi chen & ksi, why not create thread here with a list of the very best books for P1 to PSLE available in popular or any bookstores so that all parents can benefit from your rich knowledge and experience?

Problem is, KSP, we are not the exam setters. If they set the papers, they should recommend resources that align with the exams. We have been talking about children tested above cognitive level so it is not good to shoot in the dark again.

[violin_lover]

Chen and fellow friends, just want to share a link with you http://news.asiaone.com/News/Mailbox/Story/A1Story20120218-328745.html

[cnimed]

Was staying away from this thread but curiousity got the better of me, wow! The number of posts!


I don’t think we can say that children are ALL tested above their cognitive level. I think there is a spectrum, but few parents are willing to accept even the average.

I also agree with wonderm that though there are challenging questions, the concepts usually have already been covered. We are trying to move away from rote learning, that is a good thing right? And it is something we have been clamouring for right? But in moving away from rote learning and memorisation/regurgitation, the variations in teaching abilities become more apparent, and children’s abilities to apply concepts in different fields will differ.

It’s a bit of a catch-22 to expect this shift in education without further sifting of abilities on both teachers and students’ part. We can be more selective about teachers, but we have to accept all students and they come in all types and abilities. Are parents willing to accept that the days of scoring 90+ across all subjects are dwindling?

The way I see it, the textbooks are the baseline, the sky is the limit.

I do have my own wishlist for MOE. But more textbooks and model essays are not among them…at least not now. I may repent in a few more years! Never say never. grin

[Chenonceau]

deminc:

I don't think we can say that children are ALL tested above their cognitive level. I think there is a spectrum, but few parents are willing to accept even the average.

I think there are 2 ways of approaching the notion of \"testing above cognitive level\". First, there is the individual. Each individual comes with different capabilities... and a high ability child facing the same test will not find it above his/her cognitive level. Second, there is a stated syllabus for a given year of study. If tests cover material from later years of study, then even high ability children are tested above his/her cognitive level.

We are referring to the 2nd approach to \"testing above cognitive level\".

deminc:

but few parents are willing to accept even the average.

The parents you know must be a very special group because I frequently encounter parents, who accept \"average\" and are very happy already. My neighbour's niece scored 23x, and they celebrated. A good friend's daughter scored 24x and he was so proud of her. Another friend's son scored 21x and they celebrated too because the son had tried his best and demonstrated strength of character. One woman approached me for motivation advice and she PM-ed me her joy when her DD scored 23x. My own son scored 64% on one occasion (he told me was lowest in class back then) and I can't even remember it happened.

In the entire cohort of PSLE, only a few can get into the top schools. The majority of people accept and are happy with not getting into NYGH/RGS/RI/HCI. How come so few parents will accept average when fully 98% of the bell curve has to? Or if it is really really average, then 50% of the bell curve does?

deminc:

But in moving away from rote learning and memorisation/regurgitation, the variations in teaching abilities become more apparent

It is a problem when children's potential is capped by variations in teaching ability.

deminc:

in moving away from rote learning and memorisation/regurgitation...and children's abilities to apply concepts in different fields will differ.

Even in the days when the syllabus prized rote learning and memorisation, children's abilities differed... there was already a bell curve... but at least it depended on a child's ability... and not on...

(1) differential access to enrichment which provides the necessary skills practice opportunities

(2) privileged access to high quality educational resources (because textbooks are insufficient)

deminc:

I also agree with wonderm that though there are challenging questions, the concepts usually have already been covered.

If this is your real experience then I sincerely rejoice with you. But this is not the experience of myself and ...

psle2011mum: http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?p=708670#p708670

linden2000: http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?p=708776#p708776

fat mama: http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?p=714948#p714948

No doubt you and wonderm have had different experiences but there are many others whose children are tested beyond the syllabus for their level... before the concepts have been taught. These real and numerous experiences of parents who have
(1) analyzed the exams to understand failure,
(2) taught their children PERSONALLY (hence we know what the schools DON'T teach)
cannot be lightly brushed away with a sweeping \"I also agree with wonderm that though there are challenging questions, the concepts usually have already been covered.\"

No offence to you deminc. I can understand your experience is altogether positive at present and I will understand that you will continue to disagree with me... but I write this post as much to convince other readers (or to give them a voice)... and to let MOE know that this IS a problem and should not be swept away with one general statement (since there are a fair number of specific examples where children are tested on material not yet taught, and out of their level).

[Chenonceau]

I think I have worked very hard in this thread to raise the issue of concern. I have done everything I know how to draw attention to this thread and have people (hopefully MOE) read it. I have argued and presented and called MOE's top civil servants some inelegant names. :rotflmao:


It is good to know when to stop. I am happy with what I have done, and I think I have done my best.

So now, I stop. Cheerio...

[doodbug]

deminc:

Was staying away from this thread but curiousity got the better of me, wow! The number of posts!


I don't think we can say that children are ALL tested above their cognitive level. I think there is a spectrum, but few parents are willing to accept even the average.

I think what parents are referring to is that children are tested beyond the prescribed syllabus and the textbooks.

I also agree with wonderm that though there are challenging questions, the concepts usually have already been covered. We are trying to move away from rote learning, that is a good thing right? And it is something we have been clamouring for right? But in moving away from rote learning and memorisation/regurgitation, the variations in teaching abilities become more apparent, and children's abilities to apply concepts in different fields will differ.

I am fully supportive of moving away from content and memory work. The exams of the past tended to differentiate kids based on carelessness, silly and trivial stuff. My children are not in P6 yet and I cannot comment on whether subjects like Science has moved away from rote learning and memory work. I did recall that I memorized a TON for Science PSLE as that was how to get an A* back then (tons of food chains and stuff); I hope the memory content has been reduced, and has evolved to become more conceptual.

It's a bit of a catch-22 to expect this shift in education without further sifting of abilities on both teachers and students' part. We can be more selective about teachers, but we have to accept all students and they come in all types and abilities. Are parents willing to accept that the days of scoring 90+ across all subjects are dwindling?

The way I see it, the textbooks are the baseline, the sky is the limit.

The last statement really got me thinking. There is a huge and fundamental difference between the PSLE and O or A levels. At the O or A levels, one is graded. One attains a certain level of competency or performance, and one is graded an A. The sky is the limit in that you can score 100, but it is still an A. Whereas the PSLE is a different construct - every point of differentiation counts in the T-score. It becomes more of a relative and zero-sum game, at each subject level. The sky (or more accurately 100 marks) is really the limit. The chase becomes endless, and there is no end in sight. It's a different challenge, and Singaporean parents have responded to the PSLE with an approach of tuition, tuition and more tuition. Yikes, and I will be one of them soon

I do have my own wishlist for MOE. But more textbooks and model essays are not among them....at least not now. I may repent in a few more years! Never say never. *grin*

I think the more fundamental issue that some of us have is perhaps not the textbook per se, but the differential access to good resources across different schools. Also, I think KSP demographic profile is probably not representative of the general Singaporean demographic profile. We are parents who have the priviledged time and take the effort to surf the web for resources on how best to help our kids. As such, many of our kids will not face the issue of the lack of good resources. I may be wrong but a disproportionate number of KSP forummers have children in one of the better (say top 30) Primary Schools, where as there are actually close to 200 Primary Schools. Truly I think there are many parents and children out there who are lost in navigating resources, and helpless, thus the best recourse is tuition, tuition and more tuition.