Primary school maths: A vicious circle (from TODAY May 8)

[Chenonceau]

coast:

Chenonceau:

[quote=\"BeContented\"]

Sigh, so what do we want? Communist society where everyone have same level playing field? :scratchhead: :scared:

Don't exaggerate. No one mentioned Communism. In designing organisations and management processes, consultants are mindful of market homogeneity.


MOE wants to give schools as much autonomy as possible to react to local needs when actually cohorts don't differ much from Bedok Ave 6 to Eunos Street 14.

Hi Chenonceau, I think we might be the minority here that believe the cohort doesn't differ much.

I am not sure if it is a standard that all schools practise - streaming kids into the best 2 classes after their P2. Well, MOE and the schools who practise this certainly believe there is a need. Many parents support the streaming too (surprise surprise). If the objective of the streaming is to allow for better class-ratio and better teachers (e.g., proven track record) for the weaker boys, I will reluctantly support the idea. Sadly, many schools cater the 'best' resources to the top 2 classes, even with different materials for the different classes. Why? I am not sure what KPIs a school is accountable for, but publishing the top PSLE scorers every year is likely a key reason the schools are putting their best resources for their top 2 classes.

Certainly there are things that MOE can do and it doesn't require much efforts (e.g., band-based sec school admission rather than individualistic T-scores, publish the complete PSLE past years' papers, quality materials accessible by all schools/classes, ...). Our PM wants to improve on social mobility and he knows education plays an important role. I see many ways to achieve better social mobility but why is MOE not responding? At least explain the reason(s) why they are not implementing certain key suggestions like those above.[/quote]They may differ WITHIN the school. They don't differ between neighbourhoods in Ang Mo Kio Ave 4 and Ang Mo Kio Ave 1. Yet schools are different in quality sometimes within a few km of each other.

Of course, there will be some who will say that education is a people dependent business and hence, we must live with the stark variance in quality between schools. Which business is not people driven? If Apple stores can strive to maintain a consistent presence right down to the floating staircase... across outlets in the WORLD... what's so difficult about maintaining consistency across schools on an island like ours?

We DON'T NEED stark differentiation amongst schools because Singaporean children are Singaporean children whether or not in Changi or Yishun. We are not big like the USA. Why must we copy the USA system in everything, including management of schools?

[coast]

Chenonceau:

coast:

[quote=\"Chenonceau\"]

Don't exaggerate. No one mentioned Communism. In designing organisations and management processes, consultants are mindful of market homogeneity.


MOE wants to give schools as much autonomy as possible to react to local needs when actually cohorts don't differ much from Bedok Ave 6 to Eunos Street 14.

Hi Chenonceau, I think we might be the minority here that believe the cohort doesn't differ much.

I am not sure if it is a standard that all schools practise - streaming kids into the best 2 classes after their P2. Well, MOE and the schools who practise this certainly believe there is a need. Many parents support the streaming too (surprise surprise). If the objective of the streaming is to allow for better class-ratio and better teachers (e.g., proven track record) for the weaker boys, I will reluctantly support the idea. Sadly, many schools cater the 'best' resources to the top 2 classes, even with different materials for the different classes. Why? I am not sure what KPIs a school is accountable for, but publishing the top PSLE scorers every year is likely a key reason the schools are putting their best resources for their top 2 classes.

Certainly there are things that MOE can do and it doesn't require much efforts (e.g., band-based sec school admission rather than individualistic T-scores, publish the complete PSLE past years' papers, quality materials accessible by all schools/classes, ...). Our PM wants to improve on social mobility and he knows education plays an important role. I see many ways to achieve better social mobility but why is MOE not responding? At least explain the reason(s) why they are not implementing certain key suggestions like those above.

They may differ WITHIN the school. They don't differ between neighbourhoods in Ang Mo Kio Ave 4 and Ang Mo Kio Ave 1. Yet schools are different in quality sometimes withing a few km of each other.[/quote]Why differ within the school? :?

There are many reasons why a kid does or does not do well in exams. By streaming at end of P2, we have already started various obstalces for the kids (not in the top 2 classes) to do well academically. Some parents (and the kids) also start believing the kids are not 'strong' academically, all from the age of 8.

[Chenonceau]

coast:

Why differ within the school? :?

There are many reasons why a kid does or does not do well in exams. By streaming at end of P2, we have already started various obstalces for the kids (not in the top 2 classes) to do well academically. Some parents (and the kids) also start believing the kids are not 'strong' academically, all from the age of 8.

I teach. Each student is different. They learn differently. They have different learning styles. This does not mean I am FOR streaming. But since I teach I know I must engage each student DIFFERENTLY. The whole population mix is same from one school to another. But in each class, each child is different. They need practice in different areas. They have talents in different areas.

[coast]

coast:

Why differ within the school? :?

There are many reasons why a kid does or does not do well in exams. By streaming at end of P2, we have already started various obstalces for the kids (not in the top 2 classes) to do well academically. Some parents (and the kids) also start believing the kids are not 'strong' academically, all from the age of 8.

Chenonceau:

I teach. Each student is different. They learn differently. They have different learning styles. This does not mean I am FOR streaming. But since I teach I know I must engage each student DIFFERENTLY. The whole population mix is same from one school to another. But in each class, each child is different. They need practice in different areas. They have talents in different areas.

This is a self-evident truth even for parents with more than one child.

I agree

Chenonceau:

I am not particularly keen to spend time disagreeing with you. If we bicker amongst ourselves, we will lose focus and MOE will wiggle its way out. So, stop trying to point out the minor areas where we disagree? If you are in it with me, then well... let's just focus on what we agree on. And push that.

As in my earlier post, I actually agree with you that the cohort doesn't differ much but I feel we might be the minority. I pointed out P2 streaming to highlight the fact that MOE and schools might not believe in that. Sorry if I did not make my points clear.

Chenonceau:

There must be start somewhere and if we focus on issues where we don't agree on, there will be no momentum. That is why I have chosen to push textbooks and national sharing database. I don't have the bandwidth to push for every different thing that means something to everyone. I am also not here to disagree with people. I'm here to push a consistent line - better textbooks and national database.

Even the fiercest detractors support the call for better textbooks and a national database.

:udawoman:

I think we were the early advocators. One year has gone.

Yes, I do support this!

I tried to create topics and seek out voters to see how many for Vs against a view. But I realised not many people vote in KSP. So though I see the high % of votes on certain views, I am none the wiser if it's indeed the majority.

[Chenonceau]

Coast... you threads have been great blessings. I am so glad you're here with me.


:thankyou:
:udawoman:

[coast]

Chenonceau:

Coast... you threads have been great blessings. I am so glad you're here with me.


:thankyou:
:udawoman:

Hi Chenonceau,

I'm always with you

I agree with many of your posts. For certain points that I raised, it's not meant to disagree but I just wanted to seek clarity so that I could understand your views better as they meant something to me.

I respect you for trying to make a change for the mass, for the less-privileged. You are the reason why I post here sometimes, for the simple reason that we are not voicing out because of our own kids, but for all kids as this is a public education.

I myself have benefited from our education system decades ago. Those days we believe in healthy competition. We believe in sharing. We believe in helping each other.

It is obvious to me that there are some issues with our current education system. I have no doubt that the issues could be resolved if our educators work together. But we need MOE to first acknowledge these issyes. So far the silence has been disappointing. But our PM has said that social mobility is an issue and it is a high priority and that education is important to improve social mobility ... so hopefully one day a VIP will see the link between what we raise with improving social mobility.

[Chenonceau]

Same words babe... he can say all he likes because it is now ELECTION time. He said plenty the last time too... remember? Some Ministers cried too.


That's why Lucky Tan's post speaks so loudly to me.

[quote] QUOTE from...
http://singaporemind.blogspot.com/2012/05/you-dont-have-to-tell-hougang-how-to.html

Helping residents temporarily with their finances by directing them to piecemeal aid and charities is not going to remove the root cause of their problems. The more Desmond Choo goes along this approach, the more people will need help because the PAP will keep its policies intact without major change.

...

Lets not forget how the few tweaks to PAP policies came about. If not for the loss of Aljunied and the significant swing in the votes, you think the PAP will even twitch their policies let alone tweak their policies? The only way to bring about change has been demonstrated - it is through the ballot box. There is no other language the PAP understands. We can discuss and discuss. Feedback through the forum thousands of letters. We can tell the MPs in their face during meet the people sessions....but all this is useless because the PAP does not even move an inch unless you're prepared to reject their upgrading carrots and vote against them. This is the only signal they understand and nothing else. Unless people vote against them, they will just assume you're complaining and not serious about the changes you want. The PAP does not listen until you vote their MPs out of parliament. You have to show them you're serious. [/quote]

[3Boys]

tutormum:

My point is : Yes, it's true that the playing field is not level. Yes, the system needs fixing as majority of the students esp those from neighbourhood schools are disadvantaged. :?:

Its only a disadvantage if you think its a disadvantage. I wouldn't care less about NYPS bussing loads of students to a Math Olympiad. This a guarantee of success in later life? I thought there was a consensus that Finland is utopia as far as education was concerned, and if they were putting out top graduates that are world beaters despite a laissez-faire early schooling system, what do we have to fear from the NYPS production line robots, right?

Perhaps the proponents of change are asking, why do I bother to post here, what harm does it do to myself or my children should I go along. Like it or not, we are all stakeholders. That being the case, we should not say, \"lets take it to the polls and see.\"

Fundamentally, there 2 things;

1) I am at all not convinced that solutions proposed will get to the guts of the problem, which is that students from poorer backgrounds are disadvantaged in education. This is true of Singapore and any society in the world, including Finland, and the problem is in my view, not in education per se, but societal structure in general. It does not help that Singapore's GINI is dreadful, but giving an iPad, or textbooks from top schools to a poor student who works at the coffee shop after school hours will not help him much. One does not make policy by intuition (equal textbooks/material = equal opportunity). In short, I think this effort is well intentioned but misplaced, or at least, unproven in effectiveness.

2) Any discussion of solutions without a discussion of constraints, is in my view, incomplete. If one wants to line up support or convince the powers that be of the necessity of change, that aspect cannot be ignored. Whilst one should always explore various high level options before getting bogged down in details, when one gets to the point of specific proposals (like now?), one does need to understand what is sustainable and affordable. I'm sure there are many highly qualified, but unemployed young Greeks. What good does it do our country to have the best education system in the world if we cannot balance our books and have a ruined economy?

If I may just add here my view on using polls to tyrannise politicians into bending to our will. Are politicians meant to serve the people? Clearly, yes. But they are meant to serve ALL the people, not merely an isolated constituency or vocal minority. If we all each pick one pet peeve and go to our MP and say, \"Change this, or else...\", I believe it is disrespectful to the ideals of democracy and to other voters. We would effectively have become ungovernable as a society. I am for instance, aghast at the present implementation of the law with regards to the underaged prostitute, but I accept that there are many who's opinion differ from mine on this issue, and I would never think about using that a basis to bash the government or demanding a change by with-holding my vote. Everyone will have their own tipping point on how their cast their vote, we live in a multidimensional world where government policies touch us at various levels, be it health, housing, taxation, business regulations, national security.....or education. It is but one dimension.

[BeContented]

3Boys:

tutormum:

My point is : Yes, it's true that the playing field is not level. Yes, the system needs fixing as majority of the students esp those from neighbourhood schools are disadvantaged. :?:

Its only a disadvantage if you think its a disadvantage. I wouldn't care less about NYPS bussing loads of students to a Math Olympiad. This a guarantee of success in later life? I thought there was a consensus that Finland is utopia as far as education was concerned, and if they were putting out top graduates that are world beaters despite a laissez-faire early schooling system, what do we have to fear from the NYPS production line robots, right?

Perhaps the proponents of change are asking, why do I bother to post here, what harm does it do to myself or my children should I go along. Like it or not, we are all stakeholders. That being the case, we should not say, \"lets take it to the polls and see.\"

Fundamentally, there 2 things;

1) I am at all not convinced that solutions proposed will get to the guts of the problem, which is that students from poorer backgrounds are disadvantaged in education. This is true of Singapore and any society in the world, including Finland, and the problem is in my view, not in education per se, but societal structure in general. It does not help that Singapore's GINI is dreadful, but giving an iPad, or textbooks from top schools to a poor student who works at the coffee shop after school hours will not help him much. One does not make policy by intuition (equal textbooks/material = equal opportunity). In short, I think this effort is well intentioned but misplaced, or at least, unproven in effectiveness.

2) Any discussion of solutions without a discussion of constraints, is in my view, incomplete. If one wants to line up support or convince the powers that be of the necessity of change, that aspect cannot be ignored. Whilst one should always explore various high level options before getting bogged down in details, when one gets to the point of specific proposals (like now?), one does need to understand what is sustainable and affordable. I'm sure there are many highly qualified, but unemployed young Greeks. What good does it do our country to have the best education system in the world if we cannot balance our books and have a ruined economy?

If I may just add here my view on using polls to tyrannise politicians into bending to our will. Are politicians meant to serve the people? Clearly, yes. But they are meant to serve ALL the people, not merely an isolated constituency or vocal minority. If we all each pick one pet peeve and go to our MP and say, \"Change this, or else...\", I believe it is disrespectful to the ideals of democracy and to other voters. We would effectively have become ungovernable as a society. I am for instance, aghast at the present implementation of the law with regards to the underaged prostitute, but I accept that there are many who's opinion differ from mine on this issue, and I would never think about using that a basis to bash the government or demanding a change by with-holding my vote. Everyone will have their own tipping point on how their cast their vote, we live in a multidimensional world where government policies touch us at various levels, be it health, housing, taxation, business regulations, national security.....or education. It is but one dimension.

:goodpost: :love:

[3Boys]

cherryc:

Totally agree with you, tutormom. I don't know in future how many of these tuitioned artificial intelligent people will be our country leader , politicians , bankers , lawyers or doctors. And the truly brainy ones missing out the good programs that will bring our country to greater heights.

If you believe that this does not equate to real intelligence, and to real life performance in the workplace (like I do), then you have absolutely nothing to worry about.

It is artificial and it is fake, it will not stand the true tests of character and intelligence, and therefore you have nothing to worry about at all.