Primary school maths: A vicious circle (from TODAY May 8)

[oxyleo]

coast:

oxyleo:

[quote=\"coast\"]
I think MOE's stand is that the level of difficulty has not increased over the years for PSLE and NOT school exams.

Frankly, I do believe (until proven wrong) that PSLE standard is reasonable and the level of difficulty has not increased over the years. But MOE is NOT publishing the EXACT PSLE past years' papers to prove its stand.

http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35434

Hi Coast,

The question of PSLE standards is indeed a complex one to answer.

This is really my guess only, until such time that we can ever get anything more detailed from MOE -
MOE's claim that PSLE standards has not risen is based on the output of the candidates i.e. the PSLE results. If results are consistent year after year, number of A*'s, A's, B's etc, they can say there is no conclusive evidence to show that standards have risen relative to the standards of the children taking the exam.

Hi oxyleo,

I have seen quite a number of your posts. I agree with most of your views and am really glad to see you on board here. :rahrah: Btw, our kids are both in P2.

I doubt that MOE will use moderated grades (A*, A, …) of the candidates to justify this case. To me, moderated grades are like quotas for IP, Express, NA, NT, … etc where unless there are major changes (which would be announced and likely debated in Parliament), the % is more or less the same each year. For PSLE, it has been 40++ % for A*/A for Eng, Maths and Sci & 80++% A*/A for Chi these few years.

I just found this SEAB reply from the internet:-

We appreciate the concerns of parents and would like to take this
opportunity to explain that the Singapore Examinations and Assessment
Board (SEAB) has in place a careful and rigorous process to ensure that
PSLE papers have an appropriate balance of easier and more difficult
questions, and are comparable in standard to those of previous years.

The panel responsible for developing the Mathematics paper
comprises experienced school teachers, subject specialists from the Ministry
Of Education and assessment specialists from SEAB. The panel members
are well-versed with the Mathematics syllabus and with what students of
different abilities can do.

You can read more from the link below

http://www.seab.gov.sg/publicCommunications/mediaReplies/PSLE_TODAY_Forum_Reply_20071015.pdf

I believe SEAB's stand remains the same even though the above article is dated 2007. But what I do not understand is … since SEAB has a careful and rigorous process to ensure that PSLE papers have an appropriate balance of easier and more difficult
questions, and are comparable in standard to those of previous years …

WHY NOT publish the EXACT PSLE past years’ papers? If there is any reason that the papers cannot be published, then at least explain the rationale of that decision to important stakeholders like parents.

http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35434[/quote]Thanks Coast. I've enjoyed reading your posts too.

Thanks for posting the link to the SEAB thread. Very insightful indeed.

I'm really not sure why SEAB has not taken the step to publish its papers. My guess is it could really be to safeguard their knowledge intelligence, perhaps because they are trying to promote our testing standards at Pri 6 level to other countries. You will note that we have the 10 yr series for GCE 'O' levels and 'A' Levels available at bookstores, but this is likely made available only because it is a testing standard that many countries have agreed to adopt at those levels.

Will be happy to hear your thoughts on this.

As for the reply from SEAB about the panel of experts they assemble, and the quality of the paper, comprising of Easy, Average and Difficult, a few interesting questions come to mind:

(1)(a) Would you know if SEAB imposes a T&C on its panel experts involved in the paper setting that anyone leaving the post is required to fulfill an appropriate number of years of gardening leave from the education industry, and is disallowed to take up any role in the private education industry, such as joining or setting up enrichment centers to profit from his/her expertise? I hope any research on this shows such T&C exists.

(b) I also noted that the letter states that some school teachers are involved in the paper setting. I wonder if any transparency on the school teachers involved would help, so that we can ensure a more arms-length approach in how these school teachers are involved with the P6 cohort in their schools. If we see a trend in certain school teachers from certain schools being involved repeatedly, and their schools repeatedly trump the exams, it should warrant an appropriate authority figure looking into the matter.

(2) If we assume that the proportion of Easy, Average and Difficult questions are still maintained year after year, and standards in eacg category are also maintained year after year, I can only imagine that everyone gets the easy right, most get the Average right, and more people each year compared to the previous year are getting the Difficult questions right. If this is so, and SEAB needs to maintain the %tage of kids scoring A*'s and A's, indeed some who thought they scored sufficiently to make the A* or A may fall through the cracks, because SEAB may be hair-splitting papers by decimal places? like 91.9 vs 91.1 that sort of thing?

Again, I must emphasize this is a pure guess. If you know of any information on this, I'll be happy to hear about it.

[Chenonceau]

sunflower:

Have you thought that the many PMs you received might just come from individuals from the 30 or so more popular schools as compared to a nation of 180, which may be a misrepresentation of the real situation?

If you are from MOE, then this MAY be wishful thinking on your part. Of course, I am not sure. I've met many parents from KSP. Almost all support the call for better textbooks and a teacher database... more than half of these parents have kids in neighbourhood schools.

Indeed, my electrician has 4 kids. 1 is taking PSLE this year. He explained to me that he doesn't expect his son to do very well at PSLE but he doesn't blame his son. He said \"I don't have time to teach my son myself and I cannot afford expensive tuition. So, my son won't be very good. But it's ok lah... We must accept that.\"

No doubt, the man fits the bill of the IDEAL parent in the eyes of MOE - bochap, un-kiasu and compliant. Still, the man has noted that his child cannot be successful because neither parent can afford the time to teach... nor the money to buy good quality tuition... which says something about the quality schools are providing.

[Lilac66]

For children of the lower income group who may not be able to cope without some form of tuition, they can try the CDAC. Not too sure about how good the tutors are though, but nevertheless, it's still some form of help..


http://www.cdac.org.sg/eng/programmes/tuition/student.htm

[Chenonceau]

Lilac66:

For children of the lower income group who may not be able to cope without some form of tuition, they can try the CDAC. Not too sure about how good the tutors are though, but nevertheless, it's still some form of help..


http://www.cdac.org.sg/eng/programmes/tuition/student.htm

That's where my electrician's child goes for tuition.

[Lilac66]

From his resigned tone, looks like it wasn't much of a help..<sigh>. Even though we can claim private tuition may not always yield results, but there's no denying, with :moneyflies: we can change the tutor till we are satisfied. But with CDAC, we'll be stuck even if the tutors can't deliver results.


So the conclusion? Yes , money is indeed king in this education system, though I would very much want to disagree. :sad:

[Intermezzo]

Chenonceau:

Lilac66:

For children of the lower income group who may not be able to cope without some form of tuition, they can try the CDAC. Not too sure about how good the tutors are though, but nevertheless, it's still some form of help..


http://www.cdac.org.sg/eng/programmes/tuition/student.htm

That's where my electrician's child goes for tuition.

Please tell him not be too worried..
My general impression is that the tutors at CDAC are on the whole a dedicated bunch. Many kids do well at PSLE with their help and go on to top schools like Dunman etc ~

there's some info here:
http://www.cdac.org.sg/cdac_corp/resource/newsletter/EnergiC%20Oct%202011%20.pdf

[BeContented]

Intermezzo:

Chenonceau:

[quote=\"Lilac66\"]For children of the lower income group who may not be able to cope without some form of tuition, they can try the CDAC. Not too sure about how good the tutors are though, but nevertheless, it's still some form of help..


http://www.cdac.org.sg/eng/programmes/tuition/student.htm

That's where my electrician's child goes for tuition.

Please tell him not be too worried..
My general impression is that the tutors at CDAC are on the whole a dedicated bunch. Many kids do well at PSLE with their help and go on to top schools like Dunman etc ~

there's some info here:
http://www.cdac.org.sg/cdac_corp/resource/newsletter/EnergiC%20Oct%202011%20.pdf[/quote]
Glad to hear that they are dedicated. :love:

[Chenonceau]

Intermezzo:

Chenonceau:

[quote=\"Lilac66\"]For children of the lower income group who may not be able to cope without some form of tuition, they can try the CDAC. Not too sure about how good the tutors are though, but nevertheless, it's still some form of help..


http://www.cdac.org.sg/eng/programmes/tuition/student.htm

That's where my electrician's child goes for tuition.

Please tell him not be too worried..
My general impression is that the tutors at CDAC are on the whole a dedicated bunch. Many kids do well at PSLE with their help and go on to top schools like Dunman etc ~

there's some info here:
http://www.cdac.org.sg/cdac_corp/resource/newsletter/EnergiC%20Oct%202011%20.pdf[/quote]I'm sure they are dedicated! They volunteer and do it for free!! When people volunteer for altruistic motives, they generally outperform those who do it for money. Yup! Since there are CDACs, parents who help themselves, tutors who make money... it isn't really important whether MOE pulls its weight or not, I guess. Others will pitch in and help...
(1) NTU Prof will fund a website to help kids with Math
(2) PRC students in USA produce video lectures to help our JC students understand Science
(3) CDACs have been around a long time
(4) KSP parents share and care

Meanwhile... in our schools, these things happen...

http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?p=770646#p770646

http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?p=771120#p771120

And self-help parents who help their kids do this for every subject...
http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?p=771122#p771122

I don't think my electrician is too worried though... he is quite resigned and has low expectations. So, I don't think he worries about his son. He's more worried about earning a living.

[coast]

coast:

coast:

Frankly, I do believe (until proven wrong) that PSLE standard is reasonable and the level of difficulty has not increased over the years. But MOE is NOT publishing the EXACT PSLE past years' papers to prove its stand.

http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35434

Hi oxyleo,

I believe SEAB's stand remains the same even though the above article is dated 2007. But what I do not understand is … since SEAB has a careful and rigorous process to ensure that PSLE papers have an appropriate balance of easier and more difficult
questions, and are comparable in standard to those of previous years …

WHY NOT publish the EXACT PSLE past years’ papers? If there is any reason that the papers cannot be published, then at least explain the rationale of that decision to important stakeholders like parents.

http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35434

oxyleo:

Thanks Coast. I've enjoyed reading your posts too.

Thanks for posting the link to the SEAB thread. Very insightful indeed.

Thanks

oxyleo:

I'm really not sure why SEAB has not taken the step to publish its papers. My guess is it could really be to safeguard their knowledge intelligence, perhaps because they are trying to promote our testing standards at Pri 6 level to other countries. You will note that we have the 10 yr series for GCE 'O' levels and 'A' Levels available at bookstores, but this is likely made available only because it is a testing standard that many countries have agreed to adopt at those levels.

Will be happy to hear your thoughts on this.

I am afraid I don't have much to share since I am none the wiser. There are teachers (and ex teachers) who read this forum but no one has mentioned why MOE is not publishing the exact PSLE exam papers.

Yes, I agree with you that there could be valid reasons but can't MOE explain to the public? Even MINDEF replies to forum letters so it is hard to think that this is something so confidential that MOE cannot explain its rationale. Or maybe we just need to wait for someone to ask this question in Parliament?

[coast]

oxyleo:

As for the reply from SEAB about the panel of experts they assemble, and the quality of the paper, comprising of Easy, Average and Difficult, a few interesting questions come to mind:

(1)(a) Would you know if SEAB imposes a T&C on its panel experts involved in the paper setting that anyone leaving the post is required to fulfill an appropriate number of years of gardening leave from the education industry, and is disallowed to take up any role in the private education industry, such as joining or setting up enrichment centers to profit from his/her expertise? I hope any research on this shows such T&C exists.

(b) I also noted that the letter states that some school teachers are involved in the paper setting. I wonder if any transparency on the school teachers involved would help, so that we can ensure a more arms-length approach in how these school teachers are involved with the P6 cohort in their schools. If we see a trend in certain school teachers from certain schools being involved repeatedly, and their schools repeatedly trump the exams, it should warrant an appropriate authority figure looking into the matter.

(2) If we assume that the proportion of Easy, Average and Difficult questions are still maintained year after year, and standards in eacg category are also maintained year after year, I can only imagine that everyone gets the easy right, most get the Average right, and more people each year compared to the previous year are getting the Difficult questions right. If this is so, and SEAB needs to maintain the %tage of kids scoring A*'s and A's, indeed some who thought they scored sufficiently to make the A* or A may fall through the cracks, because SEAB may be hair-splitting papers by decimal places? like 91.9 vs 91.1 that sort of thing?

Again, I must emphasize this is a pure guess. If you know of any information on this, I'll be happy to hear about it.

Your (1)(a) and (b) assume that PSLE has a high % of Difficult questions?

My basis is that PSLE standard is reasonable. If this assumption is correct, then I do not see any ‘insiders’ profiting from it as famous enrichment centres pride themselves with challenging worksheets while schools that trump exams are usually setting ‘difficult’ exams (just my guess too).

For (2), my view is that perhaps not so much on A but A*. But again, we do not know the % of A* each year so we are not sure if it fluctuates from one year to another. MOE only releases % of (A* + A) each year.

For languages (with oral, compo, ...), I think when you mentioned is less likely to happen.

For Maths and Sci, it is possible to set difficult questions in many different ways to test concept. I would think that the nature of most of these questions in PSLE would differ from year to year. If it is only a handful of such questions (say 10%), it is not hard for SEAB to ensure that they are not repetitive or similar in nature.

MOE does not release raw scores. SEAB does not need to hair-split papers by decimal places since T-scores is an aggregated score of all the 4 subjects based on std deviation. The decimal place (of the final T-score) will come automatically during this process.

Have you read a forum letter a few years ago raising the issue of why 3A* and 1A has a lower T-score than 1A* and 3A (I might not remember the actual grades but something to that extent)? You will understand more about T-scores after that