Primary school maths: A vicious circle (from TODAY May 8)
-
Intermezzo:
Please tell him not be too worried..
That's where my electrician's child goes for tuition.Chenonceau:
[quote=\"Lilac66\"]For children of the lower income group who may not be able to cope without some form of tuition, they can try the CDAC. Not too sure about how good the tutors are though, but nevertheless, it's still some form of help..
http://www.cdac.org.sg/eng/programmes/tuition/student.htm
My general impression is that the tutors at CDAC are on the whole a dedicated bunch. Many kids do well at PSLE with their help and go on to top schools like Dunman etc ~
there's some info here:
http://www.cdac.org.sg/cdac_corp/resource/newsletter/EnergiC%20Oct%202011%20.pdf[/quote]
Glad to hear that they are dedicated. :love: -
Intermezzo:
Please tell him not be too worried..
That's where my electrician's child goes for tuition.Chenonceau:
[quote=\"Lilac66\"]For children of the lower income group who may not be able to cope without some form of tuition, they can try the CDAC. Not too sure about how good the tutors are though, but nevertheless, it's still some form of help..
http://www.cdac.org.sg/eng/programmes/tuition/student.htm
My general impression is that the tutors at CDAC are on the whole a dedicated bunch. Many kids do well at PSLE with their help and go on to top schools like Dunman etc ~
there's some info here:
http://www.cdac.org.sg/cdac_corp/resource/newsletter/EnergiC%20Oct%202011%20.pdf[/quote]I'm sure they are dedicated! They volunteer and do it for free!! When people volunteer for altruistic motives, they generally outperform those who do it for money. Yup! Since there are CDACs, parents who help themselves, tutors who make money... it isn't really important whether MOE pulls its weight or not, I guess. Others will pitch in and help...
(1) NTU Prof will fund a website to help kids with Math
(2) PRC students in USA produce video lectures to help our JC students understand Science
(3) CDACs have been around a long time
(4) KSP parents share and care
Meanwhile... in our schools, these things happen...
http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?p=770646#p770646
http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?p=771120#p771120
And self-help parents who help their kids do this for every subject...
http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?p=771122#p771122
I don't think my electrician is too worried though... he is quite resigned and has low expectations. So, I don't think he worries about his son. He's more worried about earning a living. -
coast:
Hi oxyleo,coast:
Frankly, I do believe (until proven wrong) that PSLE standard is reasonable and the level of difficulty has not increased over the years. But MOE is NOT publishing the EXACT PSLE past years' papers to prove its stand.
http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35434
I believe SEAB's stand remains the same even though the above article is dated 2007. But what I do not understand is … since SEAB has a careful and rigorous process to ensure that PSLE papers have an appropriate balance of easier and more difficult
questions, and are comparable in standard to those of previous years …
WHY NOT publish the EXACT PSLE past years’ papers? If there is any reason that the papers cannot be published, then at least explain the rationale of that decision to important stakeholders like parents.
http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35434oxyleo:
ThanksThanks Coast.
I've enjoyed reading your posts too.
Thanks for posting the link to the SEAB thread. Very insightful indeed. oxyleo:
I am afraid I don't have much to share since I am none the wiser. There are teachers (and ex teachers) who read this forum but no one has mentioned why MOE is not publishing the exact PSLE exam papers.I'm really not sure why SEAB has not taken the step to publish its papers. My guess is it could really be to safeguard their knowledge intelligence, perhaps because they are trying to promote our testing standards at Pri 6 level to other countries. You will note that we have the 10 yr series for GCE 'O' levels and 'A' Levels available at bookstores, but this is likely made available only because it is a testing standard that many countries have agreed to adopt at those levels.
Will be happy to hear your thoughts on this.
Yes, I agree with you that there could be valid reasons but can't MOE explain to the public? Even MINDEF replies to forum letters so it is hard to think that this is something so confidential that MOE cannot explain its rationale. Or maybe we just need to wait for someone to ask this question in Parliament? -
oxyleo:
Your (1)(a) and (b) assume that PSLE has a high % of Difficult questions?
As for the reply from SEAB about the panel of experts they assemble, and the quality of the paper, comprising of Easy, Average and Difficult, a few interesting questions come to mind:
(1)(a) Would you know if SEAB imposes a T&C on its panel experts involved in the paper setting that anyone leaving the post is required to fulfill an appropriate number of years of gardening leave from the education industry, and is disallowed to take up any role in the private education industry, such as joining or setting up enrichment centers to profit from his/her expertise? I hope any research on this shows such T&C exists.
(b) I also noted that the letter states that some school teachers are involved in the paper setting. I wonder if any transparency on the school teachers involved would help, so that we can ensure a more arms-length approach in how these school teachers are involved with the P6 cohort in their schools. If we see a trend in certain school teachers from certain schools being involved repeatedly, and their schools repeatedly trump the exams, it should warrant an appropriate authority figure looking into the matter.
(2) If we assume that the proportion of Easy, Average and Difficult questions are still maintained year after year, and standards in eacg category are also maintained year after year, I can only imagine that everyone gets the easy right, most get the Average right, and more people each year compared to the previous year are getting the Difficult questions right. If this is so, and SEAB needs to maintain the %tage of kids scoring A*'s and A's, indeed some who thought they scored sufficiently to make the A* or A may fall through the cracks, because SEAB may be hair-splitting papers by decimal places? like 91.9 vs 91.1 that sort of thing?
Again, I must emphasize this is a pure guess. If you know of any information on this, I'll be happy to hear about it.
My basis is that PSLE standard is reasonable. If this assumption is correct, then I do not see any ‘insiders’ profiting from it as famous enrichment centres pride themselves with challenging worksheets while schools that trump exams are usually setting ‘difficult’ exams (just my guess too).
For (2), my view is that perhaps not so much on A but A*. But again, we do not know the % of A* each year so we are not sure if it fluctuates from one year to another. MOE only releases % of (A* + A) each year.
For languages (with oral, compo, ...), I think when you mentioned is less likely to happen.
For Maths and Sci, it is possible to set difficult questions in many different ways to test concept. I would think that the nature of most of these questions in PSLE would differ from year to year. If it is only a handful of such questions (say 10%), it is not hard for SEAB to ensure that they are not repetitive or similar in nature.
MOE does not release raw scores. SEAB does not need to hair-split papers by decimal places since T-scores is an aggregated score of all the 4 subjects based on std deviation. The decimal place (of the final T-score) will come automatically during this process.
Have you read a forum letter a few years ago raising the issue of why 3A* and 1A has a lower T-score than 1A* and 3A (I might not remember the actual grades but something to that extent)? You will understand more about T-scores after that
-
Chenonceau:
Take heart, Chen ~
I'm sure they are dedicated! They volunteer and do it for free!! When people volunteer for altruistic motives, they generally outperform those who do it for money. Yup! Since there are CDACs, parents who help themselves, tutors who make money... it isn't really important whether MOE pulls its weight or not, I guess. Others will pitch in and help...Intermezzo:
Please tell him not be too worried..
My general impression is that the tutors at CDAC are on the whole a dedicated bunch. Many kids do well at PSLE with their help and go on to top schools like Dunman etc ~
there's some info here:
http://www.cdac.org.sg/cdac_corp/resource/newsletter/EnergiC%20Oct%202011%20.pdf
(1) NTU Prof will fund a website to help kids with Math
(2) PRC students in USA produce video lectures to help our JC students understand Science
(3) CDACs have been around a long time
(4) KSP parents share and care
Meanwhile... in our schools, these things happen...
http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?p=770646#p770646
http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?p=771120#p771120
And self-help parents who help their kids do this for every subject...
http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?p=771122#p771122
I don't think my electrician is too worried though... he is quite resigned and has low expectations. So, I don't think he worries about his son. He's more worried about earning a living.
hopefully MOE will announce some good changes soon..
i guess they always like to keep things under wraps until the very day..?
and then they might even say something like \"After years of detailed research and listening attentively to feedback from parents, we have decided to...\" :roll: -
Intermezzo:
It would be so wonderful. I do hope that you are in some capacity to speak on behalf of MOE because your words are balm to my spirit.
Take heart, Chen ~
hopefully MOE will announce some good changes soon..
i guess they always like to keep things under wraps until the very day..?
and then they might even say something like \"After years of detailed research and listening attentively to feedback from parents, we have decided to...\" :roll: -
Chenonceau:
:hugs: Cautiously Excited.....
It would be so wonderful. I do hope that you are in some capacity to speak on behalf of MOE because your words are balm to my spirit.Intermezzo:
Take heart, Chen ~
hopefully MOE will announce some good changes soon..
i guess they always like to keep things under wraps until the very day..?
and then they might even say something like \"After years of detailed research and listening attentively to feedback from parents, we have decided to...\" :roll: -
coast:
Hi Coast,
Your (1)(a) and (b) assume that PSLE has a high % of Difficult questions?oxyleo:
As for the reply from SEAB about the panel of experts they assemble, and the quality of the paper, comprising of Easy, Average and Difficult, a few interesting questions come to mind:
(1)(a) Would you know if SEAB imposes a T&C on its panel experts involved in the paper setting that anyone leaving the post is required to fulfill an appropriate number of years of gardening leave from the education industry, and is disallowed to take up any role in the private education industry, such as joining or setting up enrichment centers to profit from his/her expertise? I hope any research on this shows such T&C exists.
(b) I also noted that the letter states that some school teachers are involved in the paper setting. I wonder if any transparency on the school teachers involved would help, so that we can ensure a more arms-length approach in how these school teachers are involved with the P6 cohort in their schools. If we see a trend in certain school teachers from certain schools being involved repeatedly, and their schools repeatedly trump the exams, it should warrant an appropriate authority figure looking into the matter.
(2) If we assume that the proportion of Easy, Average and Difficult questions are still maintained year after year, and standards in eacg category are also maintained year after year, I can only imagine that everyone gets the easy right, most get the Average right, and more people each year compared to the previous year are getting the Difficult questions right. If this is so, and SEAB needs to maintain the %tage of kids scoring A*'s and A's, indeed some who thought they scored sufficiently to make the A* or A may fall through the cracks, because SEAB may be hair-splitting papers by decimal places? like 91.9 vs 91.1 that sort of thing?
Again, I must emphasize this is a pure guess. If you know of any information on this, I'll be happy to hear about it.
My basis is that PSLE standard is reasonable. If this assumption is correct, then I do not see any ‘insiders’ profiting from it as famous enrichment centres pride themselves with challenging worksheets while schools that trump exams are usually setting ‘difficult’ exams (just my guess too).
How high PSLE standards are will typically be relative to how prepared the kids taking the exams are ready for it. In language subjects for eg, a child who is already devouring Eng Lit and Chinese classics will probably find the PsLE papers a breeze. I'm actually suspecting those who consider themselves well-prepared for the perceived PSLE standards that they benchmarked themselves against a few years ago will find that they may wind up with an A rather than an A*.
For (2), my view is that perhaps not so much on A but A*. But again, we do not know the % of A* each year so we are not sure if it fluctuates from one year to another. MOE only releases % of (A* + A) each year.
For languages (with oral, compo, ...), I think when you mentioned is less likely to happen.
The thing with Oral and Compo, whilst I'm aware teachers and probably examiners need to abide by some clearly set-out rubrics,on a max score of 10 points as an eg, if several kids write a Compo or participate at Oral at Sec 2 level standards, and the majority at P6 level, it is very likely the marker will accord the former kids the A* and the rest an A. It's relative u see. Assuming the former kids score the 9 's and 10's out of 10, the rest, though meeting very acceptable P6 standards, will score the 7's and 8's upon 10 right? I am beginning to understand why the popular schools have raised standards so crazily. To stand out above the rest, so their chances of an A* increases. Makes perfect sense if that is their sole objective.
For Maths and Sci, it is possible to set difficult questions in many different ways to test concept. I would think that the nature of most of these questions in PSLE would differ from year to year. If it is only a handful of such questions (say 10%), it is not hard for SEAB to ensure that they are not repetitive or similar in nature.
Again here, the Easy questions are those that everyone assumes everyone else can answer. Those aiming for A* will want to nail all of the Average ones too. And then they train like crazy for the remaining difficult questions. It's a matter of who has a higher chance of tripping over them. The more prepared you are, hence explaining all this OnSponge craze to twist and contort the minds of parents and children, the higher your chance of A* over everyone else.
MOE does not release raw scores. SEAB does not need to hair-split papers by decimal places since T-scores is an aggregated score of all the 4 subjects based on std deviation. The decimal place (of the final T-score) will come automatically during this process.
Have you read a forum letter a few years ago raising the issue of why 3A* and 1A has a lower T-score than 1A* and 3A (I might not remember the actual grades but something to that extent)? You will understand more about T-scores after that
Thanks for sharing. Please see some of my comments in blue above. Feel free to share your thoughts. Haha. Until we get more transparency on the grading and T-scores, it will continue to be really just guess work on our part. -
http://www.straitstimes.com/STForum/Story/STIStory_804737.html
http://www.straitstimes.com/STForum/OnlineStory/STIStory_804580.html
The predictable MOE response will be ... \"We can't do anything. Go and talk directly to the school. We are not here to micro-manage schools\". -
oxyleo:
hi oxyleo, i'm not related to MOE in any way.. just being hopeful as always..
:hugs: Cautiously Excited.....Chenonceau:
It would be so wonderful. I do hope that you are in some capacity to speak on behalf of MOE because your words are balm to my spirit.
... and \"cautiously excited\" sounds very cute.. :rotflmao:
Time for a commercial break... let's put some fun into maths.![](\"http://i50.tinypic.com/vhyqkk.jpg\")
http://i50.tinypic.com/vhyqkk.jpg\">
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