Real reason behind Singapore’s obsession with tuition
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verykiasu2010:
she used lots of upside down exclamation marks iiii[/quote]well i must say they really help to put her points across... :rotflmao:Intermezzo:
[quote=\"jtoh\"]
Group 1 and Group 3 parents will go for even more IQ tests and enrichment classes because if they wait until O levels and don't do well there, how? No PSLE certificate to fall back on!!! Only Kindergarten graduation photo!! Cannot!! How can their precious children's future be dependent on just the O level exams?? What if they don't do well??? Must go actively in search of some interim certification ala iPSLE exam. Then some clever iTLL centre will set up interim certification exams and all these parents will flock there. :faint:
:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: first time i see jtoh used so many exclamation marks!!!! -
By the way, many teachers are also baffled by the ‘Teach Less Learn More’ approach. We agree with it in principle (it’s never a problem in principle, is it?), but when implemented, it magically assumes that students already know certain key concepts which we used to teach. So now, teachers scramble to Teach More in a Lot Less Time. Bah.
And from what I hear, teachers in primary school are bogged down by too many non-academic things they have to do to make the schools look good. The non-academic bells and whistles get more and more every year. The teachers are not happy with it, either. But it’s a vicious cycle. Schools have to look ‘good’ so that parents want to send their kids to ‘enriching’, holistic schools. Big SIGH.
For me, as a parent, it’s become a situation where I send my kid to school to ‘play-play’, socialise and have enrichment lessons like sports and drama. All these are great things, especially for the kids from less-privileged families. It just becomes very bizarre when I expect and accept that the real teaching is done at home. By me. And that’s cos I can. Even kids from low-income families whose parents may not be in a position to teach are scrambling for any available and affordable tuition they can find. Frankly, I find that unacceptable. The parent who assumes that the teaching can be left up to the primary school (like in the good ol’ days when mata cheng teh kor-wore bermudas) is in for a rude shock. -
Well said. That is the crux of the problems, and they have to throw in The perplexing model Maths and heuristics questions, parents with master degrees also don’t know how to teach their children and have to scramble for tuitions. Kids go to school to be assessed and be told whether they need more tuitions. Saw someone posted the tuition question in our minister FB account and …no reply.
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cherryc:
parents with master degrees also don't know how to teach their children and have to scramble for tuitions.
This is very true.I know of at least one true example - the father is a MBA holder and an engineer but cant help the child's math at p6. :faint: -
Time is a fixed resource and schools these days have alot they want to accomplish with our children using this fixed precious resource. Back in our days, we attended school from 7.30am to 1pm - no supplementary classes at all. Class sizes were also 40 students. No tuition either.Homework is doable without tuition. Dunno how to do, can’t even ask parents coz they also cannot help you.
These days, children stay back on average 2-3 times a week for supplementary classes (not remedial for weaker students, all students must stay back) from Pri 3 onwards because schools say there is not enough time to cover the syllabus. What’s sucking up our kids’ time at school? We are accomplishing less with more time. What’s going on?
There are days on top of staying in school for 9-10 hours and kids then still come home with 2-3 hours worth of homework. I know this is not just my experience in my DS school, it’s happening in other schools too when I compare notes with friends. This is definitely not the parents’ doing, nor expectations. When schools need 40-50 hours of your child’s time a week in order to educate them and yet do an ineffective job because our kids end up failing, there is definitely something wrong. My child went through this brutal schedule until I stood up against this abuse and refused to let him attend anymore of this 9-hour days. Does MOE stop this practice? No, they say it’s a school decision. Who will take responsibility when schools use so much of our children’s time and yet our children can’t pass the school exam?
So I as a parent have to make a decision. I decide how my child’s time used. Because I need this precious resource for tuition (either by me or external parties) to ensure that he’s actually learning something. When my DS spent LESS time at school this year, his grades went UP. So my learning has been, ATTEND LESS SCHOOL, LEARN MORE. -
hokkiengirl:
YEAH! Agreed with you. And worse.....adopt the 'Teach Less Learn More' approach in a class of 30!!! :siao: I wonder how the \"scholars\" in the MOE ivory tower think and they must be :siao:By the way, many teachers are also baffled by the 'Teach Less Learn More' approach. We agree with it in principle (it's never a problem in principle, is it?), but when implemented, it magically assumes that students already know certain key concepts which we used to teach. So now, teachers scramble to Teach More in a Lot Less Time. Bah.
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coast:
Hi Coast,
In summary, her son scored 3 A* (Eng, Maths, Sci) and 1 A (Chi) ... T-score 244 ... lower T-score than those of his peers with 3A and 1B.
If PSLE awards grades based on above grading system, would you be able to guess how the following is possible (perhaps with some estimated mean and SD):-
......
Three A* for English, Mathematics and Science, an A for Chinese = aggregate score of 244. Most of his friends who managed 3As and a B have better aggregate scores than him.
I thought it is possible (3A* & 1A higher T-score than 3A & 1B) if A*, A, ... is based on a bell-curved and not on a fixed range like the PSLE Grading System quoted above?
Many many thanks if you can offer your views on this.
It is possible for T-score of 3A* 1A to be lower than 3A 1B.
Just a quick example,
For simplicity, lets assume the standard deviation for every subject to be 15 and the means of the subjects to be:
English - 65,
Science - 63,
Math - 77
Chinese - 77.
A student with the lowest possible A* (91 marks) for English, Science, Math and A (75 marks) for Chinese will get the following T-scores :
English - A* (91 marks) -> T-score of 67.3
Science - A* (91 marks) -> T-score of 68.7
Math - A* (91 marks) -> T-score of 59.3
Chinese - A (75 marks) -> T-score of 48.7
Aggregate T-score = 244
A student with highest possible A (90 marks) for English, Math, Chinese and B (74 marks) for Science will get the following T-scores :
English - A (90 marks) -> T-score of 66.7
Science - B (74 marks) -> T-score of 57.3
Math - A (90 marks) -> T-score of 58.7
Chinese - A (90 marks) -> T-score of 61.8
Aggregate T-score = 244.5
However, it is unlikely that \"most\" of the 3A 1B will get higher score than the one with 3A* 1A.
Above computation is based on a constant standard deviation of 15. If different SD is used for each subject, it would be easier to come up with a permutation where T-score of 3A 1B is higher than 3A* 1B.
Hope it is of help. -
I wish MOE will just do away with the marketing hype and fancy slogans. \"Teach Less, Learn More\" sounds all jazzy but I wish MOE will just stick to \"Teach\". Think our children will learn more and better that way.
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schweppes:
I wish MOE will just do away with the marketing hype and fancy slogans. \"Teach Less, Learn More\" sounds all jazzy but I wish MOE will just stick to \"Teach\". Think our children will learn more and better that way.
new slogan will be : \"teach more, learn more\" -
verykiasu2010:
Or \"teach more, (parents) complain less\" :evil:schweppes:
I wish MOE will just do away with the marketing hype and fancy slogans. \"Teach Less, Learn More\" sounds all jazzy but I wish MOE will just stick to \"Teach\". Think our children will learn more and better that way.
new slogan will be : \"teach more, learn more\" -
teach more, tuition lagi more :evil:
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schweppes:
I wish MOE will just do away with the marketing hype and fancy slogans. \"Teach Less, Learn More\" sounds all jazzy but I wish MOE will just stick to \"Teach\". Think our children will learn more and better that way.
MOE top guns shouldn't think of any more crazy gimmick...allow teachers to teach.
'Teach less, Learn more' is most stupid thing I have heard.
Education ministers no need to think of marketing gimmick, no need enterprising minister. Go down to bottom and find out what the kids, teachers & parents think. Don't sit in some tower and think of this and that nonsense. -
pinky:
teach more, tuition lagi more :evil:
If teachers teach adequate quality stuff and roughly appear in school exams, we parents will see lesser need for tuition. We just want quality teaching. Is that too much to ask for? -
beanbear:
Very valid point!!! Thanks for bringing this up. I think I will also need to prepare myself to take a stand if the hours spent in school are actually not helping my kids. I think takes great courage and knowledge of your own kid to take this step. Good for you!
So I as a parent have to make a decision. I decide how my child's time used. Because I need this precious resource for tuition (either by me or external parties) to ensure that he's actually learning something. When my DS spent LESS time at school this year, his grades went UP. So my learning has been, ATTEND LESS SCHOOL, LEARN MORE. -
janet_lee88:
school skim through the syllabus, tuition centres fill in the detailspinky:
teach more, tuition lagi more :evil:
If teachers teach adequate quality stuff and roughly appear in school exams, we parents will see lesser need for tuition. We just want quality teaching. Is that too much to ask for? -
Yah! Just Teach well, learn well. And kids can play well, sleep well and turn out well.
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cherryc:
Yah! Just Teach well, learn well. And kids can play well, sleep well and turn out well.
even so, there will still be kids who play in class and not pay attention and never notice what has been taught, and the parents will still say testing beyond scope, testing what was not taught -
atutor2001:
Hi atutor2001,
Hi Coast,coast:
In summary, her son scored 3 A* (Eng, Maths, Sci) and 1 A (Chi) ... T-score 244 ... lower T-score than those of his peers with 3A and 1B.
If PSLE awards grades based on above grading system, would you be able to guess how the following is possible (perhaps with some estimated mean and SD):-
......
Three A* for English, Mathematics and Science, an A for Chinese = aggregate score of 244. Most of his friends who managed 3As and a B have better aggregate scores than him.
I thought it is possible (3A* & 1A higher T-score than 3A & 1B) if A*, A, ... is based on a bell-curved and not on a fixed range like the PSLE Grading System quoted above?
Many many thanks if you can offer your views on this.
It is possible for T-score of 3A* 1A to be lower than 3A 1B.
Just a quick example,
For simplicity, lets assume the standard deviation for every subject to be 15 and the means of the subjects to be:
English - 65,
Science - 63,
Math - 77
Chinese - 77.
A student with the lowest possible A* (91 marks) for English, Science, Math and A (75 marks) for Chinese will get the following T-scores :
English - A* (91 marks) -> T-score of 67.3
Science - A* (91 marks) -> T-score of 68.7
Math - A* (91 marks) -> T-score of 59.3
Chinese - A (75 marks) -> T-score of 48.7
Aggregate T-score = 244
A student with highest possible A (90 marks) for English, Math, Chinese and B (74 marks) for Science will get the following T-scores :
English - A (90 marks) -> T-score of 66.7
Science - B (74 marks) -> T-score of 57.3
Math - A (90 marks) -> T-score of 58.7
Chinese - A (90 marks) -> T-score of 61.8
Aggregate T-score = 244.5
However, it is unlikely that \"most\" of the 3A 1B will get higher score than the one with 3A* 1A.
Above computation is based on a constant standard deviation of 15. If different SD is used for each subject, it would be easier to come up with a permutation where T-score of 3A 1B is higher than 3A* 1B.
Hope it is of help.
:thankyou:
My mind is clearer when you point out that it is unlikely that \"most\" of the 3As 1B will get higher T-scores than the one with 3A* 1A. So either the forum writer made a mistake (but SEAB did not find it necessary to correct her mistake in its reply?) or SEAB implied that it is possible (which will be very confusing unless PSLE subject grade is itself bell-curved).
Appreciate your efforts! Your explanation is certainly helpful
Just to point out though (or am I wrong?):-
1) High likelihood that Mean of Maths is < 77 since 40%++ scored A*/A each year
2) High likelihood that Mean of Chinese is > 77 since 80%++ scored A*/A each year
I think I will try to drop this T-score confusion from my mind. Just have to understand that it is all about relative performance to peers. I am glad I have found someone who can provide some advice if and when I need to clarify about T-scores again in future
IMHO, T-score system is also a contributing factor to the tuition/ enrichment phenomenon.
Maybe one day, someone will decide that it is really NOT necessary to rank our kids against each other in PSLE. I think someone suggested a band-based admission system in the newspaper some weeks ago, will we get to hear from MOE why it favours the current T-score system rather than a band-based admission system? -
verykiasu2010:
cherryc:
Yah! Just Teach well, learn well. And kids can play well, sleep well and turn out well.
even so, there will still be kids who play in class and not pay attention and never notice what has been taught, and the parents will still say testing beyond scope, testing what was not taught
We were taught well in the past, that's why we are where we are today right ? Teach well better than teach less or anyhow teach ?? -
I think I know why the standard of teaching has fallen in schools. All the ‘good’ teachers have left to start their own tuition / enrichment centres. More lucrative, less stress and possibly more appreciation. Look at the ads around. Most tuition centres will say that the teachers are former subject heads or HODs or teachers with many years of experience. So… who’s left in the schools??