Real reason behind Singapore’s obsession with tuition

[Champion]

Chenonceau:

This is why I suggested the following...

Have better textbooks... or other erstwhile written resources (notes, online resources) so kids can cover the material on their own. But then of course, people have a whole host of reasons why textbooks are lousy... and why kids of 7, 8 or 9 are expected to ...
(1) realise that they need to do library search à la IP student in secondary school
(2) traipse off to the library all by themselves (if their parents are both working)

:hi5: Chenonceau ( :offtopic: want to have some chwee kueh for breakfast? :evil: ).
I don't understand (or maybe I am very slow and ignorant :lightrod: ) -- there are errors on the textbook, especially the Chinese Language textbook and yet the cover said it is approved for use till 20xx year. Then as you think that they will change the content inside the book, you will find that the mistakes are still there but just that the cover page change the approval of use till year 20xx year! :faint:

I remembered checking with my DD1 CL T 3 years ago when she was in P1 regarding the errors and then now 3 years later, I am doing the same again!

[Chenonceau]

Champion:

Chenonceau:

This is why I suggested the following...

Have better textbooks... or other erstwhile written resources (notes, online resources) so kids can cover the material on their own. But then of course, people have a whole host of reasons why textbooks are lousy... and why kids of 7, 8 or 9 are expected to ...
(1) realise that they need to do library search à la IP student in secondary school
(2) traipse off to the library all by themselves (if their parents are both working)

:hi5: Chenonceau ( :offtopic: want to have some chwee kueh for breakfast? :evil: ).
I don't understand (or maybe I am very slow and ignorant :lightrod: ) -- there are errors on the textbook, especially the Chinese Language textbook and yet the cover said it is approved for use till 20xx year. Then as you think that they will change the content inside the book, you will find that the mistakes are still there but just that the cover page change the approval of use till year 20xx year! :faint:

I remembered checking with my DD1 CL T 3 years ago when she was in P1 regarding the errors and then now 3 years later, I am doing the same again!

Chwee kueh... hmmmmmm... haven't had breakfast yet!! Are you having chwee kueh?

[verykiasu2010]

Intermezzo:

verykiasu2010:

[quote=\"cherryc\"]Yah! Just Teach well, learn well. And kids can play well, sleep well and turn out well.

even so, there will still be kids who play in class and not pay attention and never notice what has been taught, and the parents will still say testing beyond scope, testing what was not taught

哇塞! this is exactly what i feel is the case for most kids. Trust you to be the one who DARE say it.

People like to talk and air our views, but really.. we are not so good when it comes to listening.
In fact, studies on listening skills indicate that typical adults only listen to between 30 to 50% of what is being said.

so how about the kids? can't be anywhere near 100%, right?

actually both my kids tried it on me before, saying that \"teacher didn't teach.. so dunno how to do..\"

i just tell them nicely, Maybe she did teach, but you weren't paying attention at that time?

and there's no way they could dispute that.. because they KNOW there IS no way they could have been paying 100% attention... :rotflmao:

but of cos i soften the blow by saying they can easily learn on their own to cover what they didn't get taught.[/quote]we happen to know quite a number of parents whose kids were in the same level / same class as my kids when they were in pri school. while waiting for them to complete the competition, we parents talked for hours.

the interesting discovery was that many parents complained about topics not taught and got tested. we asked our own kids whether it was true. my DS could even quote the date the topic was taught and he could pull out his own notes made on that day in class, and the worksheet given ...... yes my DS has a reputation of making notes and compilation of teachers' notes. (only discovered about his reputation recently).

at the end of the year, he lent his complete file to the teacher for comparison of completeness

of course we never say their kids did not pay attention lah, may be the teacher was not loud enough, only front row students could hear ?

but this is only anecdote from one school. my kids did not attend other pri schools so cannot comment on others

[Chenonceau]

verykiasu2010:

we happen to know quite a number of parents whose kids were in the same level / same class as my kids when they were in pri school. while waiting for them to complete the competition, we parents talked for hours.

the interesting discovery was that many parents complained about topics not taught and got tested. we asked our own kids whether it was true. my DS could even quote the date the topic was taught and he could pull out his own notes made on that day in class, and the worksheet given ...... yes my DS has a reputation of making notes and compilation of teachers' notes. (only discovered about his reputation recently).

at the end of the year, he lent his complete file to the teacher for comparison of completeness

You are a blessed Daddy indeed . And a good one, to have groomed a child thus... or maybe it is Mrs Bear who deserves the credit. Prolly you share credit lah...

In my case, DS didn't say it wasn't taught. I arrived at my conclusion by analyzing his homework and exam papers. Then I talked to Teachers after the exam...
- The bright ones will know.
- The PSLE also tests beyond what we teach.

[verykiasu2010]

Chen


I like your your water analogy

My family members all drink the same water from the same pot boiled using the same kettle from the same boiling

I drank and got lao sai ...... don't understand why .... is true, is off topic but true ..... really

but :rotflmao:

[jtoh]

Intermezzo:

verykiasu2010:

[quote=\"jtoh\"]

Group 1 and Group 3 parents will go for even more IQ tests and enrichment classes because if they wait until O levels and don't do well there, how? No PSLE certificate to fall back on!!! Only Kindergarten graduation photo!! Cannot!! How can their precious children's future be dependent on just the O level exams?? What if they don't do well??? Must go actively in search of some interim certification ala iPSLE exam. Then some clever iTLL centre will set up interim certification exams and all these parents will flock there. :faint:

then all parents and kids become Apple products : iDiot

actually i very much wonder where would Jtoh fit in..? because i'm pretty sure she doesn't fall into any of these groups above... =)[/quote]I'll add in one more group to BeContented's original 3 groups:

Group 1 : kiasu and educated and know-how-to-teach parents
- will still be busy enriching their children.....cannot relax, must be on your toes, cannot be lazy/bochup, must do your best. With more time now, let's accelerate!!! Must make sure can cover everything.

Group 2 : bo-chup and clueless parents
- with no timeline (or at least much later) will be more relax. Since school result is good (no difficult paper), no need tuition lah. Also no idea how the child is doing in school or how prepared is the child for the BIG streaming at 16.

Group 3 : somewhat kiasu but may not know what to do parents
- will start wondering where their kids stand. How to find out? What if the child end up bottom at 16yo? How to make sure they get to good schools when time comes? Start hearing from grapevine the rich & smart are having enrichment, go for IQ test, able to get hold of good resources. Then start enrolling into enrichments to make sure their kids are not left behind.

Group 4: Interested but not overly kancheong parents
- Interested in what's going on but also accepts reality of kids' ability.

There are a number of Group 4 parents on the forum.

[Chenonceau]

verykiasu2010:

Chen


I like your your water analogy

My family members all drink the same water from the same pot boiled using the same kettle from the same boiling

I drank and got lao sai ...... don't understand why .... is true, is off topic but true ..... really

but :rotflmao:

Hmmmm... Different cup? Did you wash your cup?

[cherryc]

Intermezzo:

verykiasu2010:

[quote=\"cherryc\"]Yah! Just Teach well, learn well. And kids can play well, sleep well and turn out well.

even so, there will still be kids who play in class and not pay attention and never notice what has been taught, and the parents will still say testing beyond scope, testing what was not taught

哇塞! this is exactly what i feel is the case for most kids. Trust you to be the one who DARE say it.

People like to talk and air our views, but really.. we are not so good when it comes to listening.
In fact, studies on listening skills indicate that typical adults only listen to between 30 to 50% of what is being said.

so how about the kids? can't be anywhere near 100%, right?

actually both my kids tried it on me before, saying that \"teacher didn't teach.. so dunno how to do..\"

i just tell them nicely, Maybe she did teach, but you weren't paying attention at that time?

and there's no way they could dispute that.. because they KNOW there IS no way they could have been paying 100% attention... :rotflmao:

but of cos i soften the blow by saying they can easily learn on their own to cover what they didn't get taught.[/quote]How do you explain when kids go to tuition , they seem to get it??? So tutors can teach better and the kids are more engaged? And I am impressed with your \"they can easily learn on their own what they didn't get taught\". How do your kids do it? Mine can't as the textbooks scarcely cover the syllabus and if they can do it , they don't need to go to schools at all.

[coast]

atutor2001:

coast:

...So either the forum writer made a mistake (but SEAB did not find it necessary to correct her mistake in its reply?) or SEAB implied that it is possible (which will be very confusing unless PSLE subject grade is itself bell-curved).

I do believe that the raw scores are \"bell-curved\" adjusted. This is necessary because if we analyse T-score formula, we will find that the conversion factor from raw score is dependent on the raw score itself.

For example, with SD = 11 and mean = 75, the conversion factor is 0.73 for 100 marks but -0.91 for 10 marks. With SD = 13 and mean = 60, the conversion factor is 0.81 for 100 marks to 1.15 for 10 marks.

For certain combination of SD and mean, the conversion factor is independent of the raw score, example when when mean = 65 and SD = 13 or mean = 70 and SD =14...

So I guess the curve need to be adjusted for the ranking method to be fairer.

Thanks once again for sharing your expertise

My apologies as I did not make it clear. What I meant by “PSLE subject grade is itself bell-curved” is that the grade itself (A*, A, B, …) is not based on a fixed range (e.g., A* :- 91 & above, A :- 75 to 90) but “bell-curved” adjusted (e.g., A* for a particular subject could be 92 and above in one year but 89 and above in another). This would make “3 A* and 1A lower T-score than 3As and 1B” more probable.

Interestingly, even though SEAB has replied that it is possible to the forum writer, the slide used by quite a number of schools in their parents briefing changed the question to “is it possible for a pupil with 3A* and 1A to be ranked lower than another pupil who has only 1A* and 3As”.

http://www.firsttoapayohpri.moe.edu.sg/wbn/slot/u1320/Parents%20Briefing%20P6/PSLE_2012_Parents_briefing_website.pdf

I guess I just make my own conclusion that the probability is so low that even schools have to change the data to (1A* and 3As) from (3As and 1B) which is quite a significant difference. If only SEAB provided clarity in its reply to the forum writer’s “Most of his friends who managed 3As and a B have better aggregate scores than him.”

Well, guess it will remain a mystery. For now, I will move on with there is a PSLE grading system (A* :- 91 & above, A :- 75 to 90, …) since it is statiscally possible by the estimates you have kindly shared but I guess some parents/ students might be shocked with their PSLE aggregate T-scores just like the forum writer.

Hopefully my posts will not be flagged “off-topic”. I personally feel that T-score system (ranking against cohort) is one of the key factors for our tuition phenomenon.

Can't thank you enough for being so kind to work out details for my queries. Many many thanks!!!

[Nebbermind]

verykiasu2010:

but this is only anecdote from one school. my kids did not attend other pri schools so cannot comment on others

But it was the same during my time in school...most of the people at the back ain't paying attention too!! Perhaps u guys never sat at the back!