Real reason behind Singapore’s obsession with tuition
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buds:
I would beg to differ. I think there can be systemic solutions to shore up overall quality in every school.
Please lah.. there are black sheeps everywhere in every other industry. It's not exclusive to the people in the teaching profession. Quality variance is inevitable. But if there are genuine cases of CMI teachers, they should be brought to task... A case by case situation to look into.. ie. the respective teacher ...and not pin the fault entirely to the school in itself or MOE (as a whole).
Better textbooks are one way to decrease variance in quality across schools. It isn't the only way though. This is a systemic solution that can decrease variance in education delivered. A central online repository of Teaching materials too can help bring down variance.
Right now... everything needs to come THROUGH Teachers. The system has no redundancy. It gives full play to human inconsistency by depending entirely on Teachers to teach because textbooks aren't enough to learn with... and notes are again Teacher dependent. The moment you have a poor Teacher (who isn't able or willing to write notes) or you have a school (which does not have the habit of gathering Teachers together to produce materials for all Teachers to use)... too bad for you. You can't even study from textbooks to make up for Teacher incompetence... or poor school management. Can only switch schools. So no wonder people queue up and volunteer at supposedly good schools (and yes... some branded schools are very bad indeed).
And what about learning styles then? Some children learn well through their eyes. Teacher delivery goes through the auditory channel mostly. Kids who learn best through reading can miss a lot... Better textbooks can help many kids already without parents having to complain about Teachers (and notwithstanding the fact that comprehensive textbooks aren't enough... Teachers are necessary because yet other kids learn through their ears). Teachers themselves also will be helped by better textbooks.
I still think that every human-driven industry from restaurants to hotels to fast foods... is subject to variance. However, many organisations make it a priority to try can temper that variance in other ways. Specific to MOE, a good way to temper variance is to have better textbooks.
I think it's not all about bad Teachers. Good organisations can get good performance out of average and poor Teachers. Good textbooks can help bad Teachers teach... and allow good students to learn independently. -
J and J:
My DS' school also has Teachers teaching 2 or 3 subjects to the same class. Again, variance in delivery of education. What's wrong with setting policy stating that in view of the more challenging syllabus, Teachers should be subject specific across all schools.
Wonder if you can share which school your DD is studying and which level that her class has differenct teacher for each different subject?Funz:
There are all kinds of teachers out there. We just have to remember that their role is to teach, so there is nothing wrong with our kids asking them to explain and explain again. Sometimes we project our own reservations on them. The teachers do not find it irritating nor do they judge that easily. We think that they do and as such we do not press on with our questions.
There are all sorts of teachers. Those who are ever ready to answer the kids questions and those who think that their 45mins in class is all they need to give the kids.
DD and DS are in different schools. I can see the difference in the culture of communication in their schools. In DD's school, communication is open. Teachers email us constantly of the things done in school. I have even received smses from DD's teachers. Her Higher Chinese teacher even called me personally as she was concerned about DD's reaction when she got her results for a test. When I had problems trying to get DD to understand certain concepts covered in school, I emailed her math teacher and the teacher went through the concepts again in class the following day and reverted with an email with pointers on how to guide dd on such questions. I did not feel any need to go for any PTCs with DD as information was prompt and we were kept up to date about stuff happening in school. With DS however, I felt the need to meet his teachers just to know how he is faring.
With DS's teachers, the communication is usually initiated by me. And email no use, I gotta keep calling the school to try to get hold of his teacher. But are his teachers teaching? So far, yes. Does DS say stuff like teacher never teach? Yes also. But when I go through the stuff with him again, he will suddenly go oh yah, teacher did cover this. I forgot or I did not realise this was what was taught the other day.
Oh, another difference, DD has a different teacher for each different subject. Whereas DS form teacher, bao gao liao, English, Math, Art, Music and Misc.
So needless to say, if I were to benchmark DS's teachers with DD's teachers, DS's teachers will fall short.
I did propose to my child's school to have different teacher for each different subject. As his form teacher always absent from school with various reasons like training, MC, CCA competition, CCL... During his form teacher's absence, the class was given worksheets to do in the class by the relief teacher. No teaching at all for all subjects except the mother tongue. That's why I proposed different teacher for each different subject to the school so that the impact on the class can be minimised, not for all subjects, but the prinicpal told me that no school can afford to do this in sg. If your DD school can do that, why they can't....
Ah yes... constraints. -
tutormum:
Yes... I agree. A class of 20 and a class of 40 are different beings. A consistent policy for smaller classes... is another systemic solution to help Teachers teach. Smaller classes make it possible for Teachers to really help students (with the skills heavy syllabus) and then Teachers feel the joy in actually succeeding. This starts a virtuous cycle where poor and demoralized Teachers can feel good about what they're doing... and from there feel motivated to put in effort... and perform better.
I've taught 1 to 1 and different class sizes up to <20 so far and to be fair to the teachers, there is a huge difference and it's near impossible to teach in a large class let alone ensure every student understands.
So why not smaller classes... ah yes again, constraints. -
It disturbs me to lay all the blame on the shoulders of individual Teachers… or to judge this Teacher good and the other bad… There are poor performers in every organisation. Some organisations sack them. Other organisations help them by tightening other mechanisms (think textbooks, Teacher sharing database, subject specific teaching and smaller classes).
My DS’ has an awful English Teacher but when I came to know her personal story… I pity her more than I blame her.
Also with new technology, classes can be recorded. At the university, some of my classes are recorded for audit purposes. People are creating bite-sized video lectures for student reference. If I wanted to (and the university encourages it), I can actually start a blog and upload videoclips explaining such and such a concept. When students don’t understand what I have explained, I can flick them the link to the blogpost with password. If MOE did an exercise where they delegated to each Teacher in the nation to generate one clip each… and someone categorised and made these resources easy to search, then it would make life a bit easier for every Teacher in the nation because the students will already have a wealth of resources to learn independently from. When you have other channels to help kids learn that automatically lightens the load off Teachers.
This isn’t difficult to do. Children nowadays can make youtube videos.
All this will even out variance and take the pressure of individual Teachers. Of course, some will say that the really lousy Teachers should be dealt with. Nonetheless, before we come in and judge Teachers (as a group or as individuals), it may be good to look at what OTHER mechanisms can be put in place to help them teach better and faster and more effectively. -
Please don’t get me wrong. I am not down to pinpointing at individual teachers. I put my 2 cents worth here cos I feel that the tone has been one that screams all teachers don’t teach hence we need tuition. And all the good results are a result of tuition not schools.
Chen brought up many very very valid points like a need for better text, for some semblance of uniformity in some areas across all schools, testing within standard, etc. But these get drowned out by TEACHERS DON’T TEACH, TUTORS DO. SO TUITION IS THE ANSWER!
Constraints, definitely there are. There are real constraints and perceived constraints. We need to knock down perceived constraints, recognise the real constraints and work around them.
MOE made some changes to the way things are taught. On paper, it looks wonderful. But execution is a b!tch. Take STELLAR. I love it coming from DD’s school, I worry about it coming from DS’s school. The materials are all the same, the delivery is very very different.
The teach less learn more initiative is good. But in my myopic view only 1/2 a plan was executed that is why it is falling flat. They want to get children to observe, discover, predict, infer, reflect, deduce as such the knowledge acquired will be more in depth. But they forget that ultimately, the kids are sitting for an exam that is designed based on drilling and rote learning, even the open ended questions are answered via a very rote method. How to balance the 2? If they dare, bite the bullet and do away with PSLE?
Darn lost my train of thoughts. Kids hounding me. -
jedamum:
My friend's kid from a SAP school asked his teacher whenever he can't understand,the teacher asked him to ask his parents or tutors :slapshead:
We have always impressed upon my boy to approach the teacher to clarify his doubts. Then feedback we get from teacher is he should have been more attentive. So now kids r judged when they asked questions in class when they not sure huh?SAHM_TAN:
The teachers don't need to be depressed.
I will ask dd1 to ask in such cases to ask the teacher again and to tell her she didn't understand the explanation, could she explain it in another way.
I don't know if dd1 will have a chance to ask a 2nd time, I will have to wait and see. -
Funz:
Thank you my love... :snuggles: ... for writing a post to integrate differences.Please don't get me wrong. I am not down to pinpointing at individual teachers. I put my 2 cents worth here cos I feel that the tone has been one that screams all teachers don't teach hence we need tuition. And all the good results are a result of tuition not schools.
Chen brought up many very very valid points like a need for better text, for some semblance of uniformity in some areas across all schools, testing within standard, etc. But these get drowned out by TEACHERS DON'T TEACH, TUTORS DO. SO TUITION IS THE ANSWER!
Constraints, definitely there are. There are real constraints and perceived constraints. We need to knock down perceived constraints, recognise the real constraints and work around them.
MOE made some changes to the way things are taught. On paper, it looks wonderful. But execution is a b!tch. Take STELLAR. I love it coming from DD's school, I worry about it coming from DS's school. The materials are all the same, the delivery is very very different.
The teach less learn more initiative is good. But in my myopic view only 1/2 a plan was executed that is why it is falling flat. They want to get children to observe, discover, predict, infer, reflect, deduce as such the knowledge acquired will be more in depth. But they forget that ultimately, the kids are sitting for an exam that is designed based on drilling and rote learning, even the open ended questions are answered via a very rote method. How to balance the 2? If they dare, bite the bullet and do away with PSLE?
Darn lost my train of thoughts. Kids hounding me. -
Hubby and I held out for 5 years before giving son tuition for Math last year. He has CL tuition since P1. This year, we went ALL THE WAY…thank goodness we did bcos I don’t have a good feel that school can prepare my son adequately for PSLE.
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janet_lee88:
Hubby and I held out for 5 years before giving son tuition for Math last year. He has CL tuition since P1. This year, we went ALL THE WAY...thank goodness we did bcos I don't have a good feel that school can prepare my son adequately for PSLE.
But Pei Hwa is well known for churning out grads with good PSLE results. That is why the school is popular.
I think you should post this post this same note at the Pri 1 registration thread, so that parents don't go there unnecessarily to register for Pri 1 next year. -
verykiasu2010:
Is it fair to post \"parents don't go there unnecessarily to register for Pri 1\" based on one parent's perception?
I think you should post this post this same note at the Pri 1 registration thread, so that parents don't go there unnecessarily to register for Pri 1 next year.janet_lee88:
bcos I don't have a good feel that school can prepare my son adequately for PSLE.
verykiasu2010:
I hv a P5 boy still with Pei Hwa. Comparing my elder boy's experience with what's going on now, there is definitely a difference.But Pei Hwa is well known for churning out grads with good PSLE results. That is why the school is popular.
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J and J:
I know for a fact that DD has had different teachers for different subjects since P1. I cannot say if this is the situation for the whole school or just that DD happened to be that lucky. Her teachers do teach across levels though.
Wonder if you can share which school your DD is studying and which level that her class has differenct teacher for each different subject?
I did propose to my child's school to have different teacher for each different subject. As his form teacher always absent from school with various reasons like training, MC, CCA competition, CCL... During his form teacher's absence, the class was given worksheets to do in the class by the relief teacher. No teaching at all for all subjects except the mother tongue. That's why I proposed different teacher for each different subject to the school so that the impact on the class can be minimised, not for all subjects, but the prinicpal told me that no school can afford to do this in sg. If your DD school can do that, why they can't.... -
Funz:
So happy for your DD. Can PM me the name of her school? so that I can recommend the principal to learn from that school how to make it possible.
I know for a fact that DD has had different teachers for different subjects since P1. I cannot say if this is the situation for the whole school or just that DD happened to be that lucky. Her teachers do teach across levels though.J and J:
Wonder if you can share which school your DD is studying and which level that her class has differenct teacher for each different subject?
I did propose to my child's school to have different teacher for each different subject. As his form teacher always absent from school with various reasons like training, MC, CCA competition, CCL... During his form teacher's absence, the class was given worksheets to do in the class by the relief teacher. No teaching at all for all subjects except the mother tongue. That's why I proposed different teacher for each different subject to the school so that the impact on the class can be minimised, not for all subjects, but the prinicpal told me that no school can afford to do this in sg. If your DD school can do that, why they can't....
:thankyou: -
Funz:
:goodpost:Please don't get me wrong. I am not down to pinpointing at individual teachers. I put my 2 cents worth here cos I feel that the tone has been one that screams all teachers don't teach hence we need tuition. And all the good results are a result of tuition not schools.
Chen brought up many very very valid points like a need for better text, for some semblance of uniformity in some areas across all schools, testing within standard, etc. But these get drowned out by TEACHERS DON'T TEACH, TUTORS DO. SO TUITION IS THE ANSWER!
Constraints, definitely there are. There are real constraints and perceived constraints. We need to knock down perceived constraints, recognise the real constraints and work around them.
MOE made some changes to the way things are taught. On paper, it looks wonderful. But execution is a b!tch. Take STELLAR. I love it coming from DD's school, I worry about it coming from DS's school. The materials are all the same, the delivery is very very different.
The teach less learn more initiative is good. But in my myopic view only 1/2 a plan was executed that is why it is falling flat. They want to get children to observe, discover, predict, infer, reflect, deduce as such the knowledge acquired will be more in depth. But they forget that ultimately, the kids are sitting for an exam that is designed based on drilling and rote learning, even the open ended questions are answered via a very rote method. How to balance the 2? If they dare, bite the bullet and do away with PSLE?
Darn lost my train of thoughts. Kids hounding me. -
verykiasu2010:
Humans are generally full of contradiction :siam:janet_lee88:
Hubby and I held out for 5 years before giving son tuition for Math last year. He has CL tuition since P1. This year, we went ALL THE WAY...thank goodness we did bcos I don't have a good feel that school can prepare my son adequately for PSLE.
But Pei Hwa is well known for churning out grads with good PSLE results. That is why the school is popular.
I think you should post this post this same note at the Pri 1 registration thread, so that parents don't go there unnecessarily to register for Pri 1 next year. -
BeContented:
Humans are generally full of contradiction :siam:[/quote]I am contentedverykiasu2010:
[quote=\"janet_lee88\"]Hubby and I held out for 5 years before giving son tuition for Math last year. He has CL tuition since P1. This year, we went ALL THE WAY...thank goodness we did bcos I don't have a good feel that school can prepare my son adequately for PSLE.
But Pei Hwa is well known for churning out grads with good PSLE results. That is why the school is popular.
I think you should post this post this same note at the Pri 1 registration thread, so that parents don't go there unnecessarily to register for Pri 1 next year. -
verykiasu2010:
for lower primary, it is a bit difficult to expect them to be that independent..
follow all the way to staff room, or go with a few friends to ask questions during recess ....
someone, already with weak foundation, they may not be able to express themselves well.
for e.g. immeidately during lesson, it is easier for them to raise they hand and say \"excuse me, could you repeat or spell out the word that you just said?\", then to, during recess, go to the teacher and say \"Mdm, just now what is the word you said? har, err.. that word.. (of coz she cannot pronounce it)....... .... sorry, forget that I came..\".
As for following the teacher to staff room, not possible coz they need to attend the next lesson.
If they are upper primary, I would not expect so much from the teacher and expect the kid to be more independent.. but P1............ difficult.. I expect the teacher to be more patient with the kids and give them sufficient care and attention. -
Chenonceau:
100% Agree.. :goodpost:
I would beg to differ. I think there can be systemic solutions to shore up overall quality in every school.
That's why we're here to express our opinions.. provide constructive feedback on HOW to improve the situation.. and not complain complain..
While different pple may have different views.. for e.g. Chen seems more focus on resources and textbooks, while I'm concerned about MOE policies that could have an impact on the quality of education provided.. etc..
It is all about systematic solutions, and not about complain which school teachers not good etc..
Althou sometimes we just share some personal experiences (good or no good), I prefer not to view it as \"complain\".. but probably isolated cases.. for reference only, and not representative of the overall picture. -
Funz:
IMO, this situation is a social ill and should be avoided.... and if necessary, require state intervention.But these get drowned out by TEACHERS DON'T TEACH, TUTORS DO. SO TUITION IS THE ANSWER!
Question is how do we avoid it.. or does anyone feel that this is not a social problem? -
There are systemic issues that can only be addressed by MOE.
Specialist teachers for each subject. The policy is for teachers to teach up to 3 subjects except MT. This policy is flawed. There are many real cases of teachers who CANNOT teach 2 out of 3 subjects yet they are forced by the system to do so. So many teachers themselves admit Maths is their worst subject, yet they are asked to teach it. Some teachers speak atrociously, cannot spell, don’t know grammar rules yet they are teaching English. Some only had Secondary school science as their only qualification in science but they teach primary school science.
I’ve had to turn to tuition to get Specialized Teaching for each subject.
I wouldn’t say Teachers are not teaching at schools. But they are not adequately equipped or trained to teach in subjects they themselves are academically weak in. You get patchy learning from someone who is not very confident in that subject. I could always tell which is the subject my DS form teacher is probably well-trained or educated in because it’s evident by the way he/she has delivered the subject and how DS can playback what he learnt from that teacher, the way he/she marks the work. -
beanbear:
There are systemic issues that can only be addressed by MOE.
Specialist teachers for each subject. The policy is for teachers to teach up to 3 subjects except MT. This policy is flawed. There are many real cases of teachers who CANNOT teach 2 out of 3 subjects yet they are forced by the system to do so. So many teachers themselves admit Maths is their worst subject, yet they are asked to teach it. Some teachers speak atrociously, cannot spell, don't know grammar rules yet they are teaching English. Some only had Secondary school science as their only qualification in science but they teach primary school science.
I've had to turn to tuition to get Specialized Teaching for each subject.
I wouldn't say Teachers are not teaching at schools. But they are not adequately equipped or trained to teach in subjects they themselves are academically weak in. You get patchy learning from someone who is not very confident in that subject. I could always tell which is the subject my DS form teacher is probably well-trained or educated in because it's evident by the way he/she has delivered the subject and how DS can playback what he learnt from that teacher, the way he/she marks the work.
saying it is forced by the system or policy is total bullshit
don't tell me those schools / principals who manage to get individual teachers for each subject are running afoul of MOE policy ?
bullsh!t!
have enuf friends who are teachers / HOD / principals / master teacher / directors in MOE to say it is never a policy