City Harvest's founder Kong Hee & 4 others arrested/charged

[Lynn2010]

Can get priority entry to ACS barker ? :oops:[/quote]


From what I hearsay, it helps. even MGS :censored: :siam:[/quote]

Really ?! There will be an immediate surge in membership soon ! :siam:[/quote]


From what i know (fr friends), the school still go by the MOE rules, no exceptions even to pastors children, no special treatment or priorities.

[sacredmusicals]

I've just read the press release and my reaction was :yikes:


I agree with everyone here that those accused are innocent until proven guilty. But i feel the church's response is poorly thought out and combative in tone. This may turn quite ugly. I fear worst case scenario is operation spectrum part 2.

[blessed777]

Dreamaurora:

cel-tang:

This is what my christian friend from Cornerstone shared with me about what she is doing. She is not trying to win people by dancing or singing but being a pop artist helps her to go into areas that are otherwise shut to the christianity or who would not be so open to the usual christian missionaries. I heard that china got her to be some ambassador of love or something like that and she was allowed to speak at their public schools about God and she also built orphanages and schools there as part of this project.

Other stars like Sammi Cheng were also impacted. She became a christian and now in taiwan there are also a lot of stars who are christians because they are open to listen to Sun as she is in the entertainment industry.

Like I said I am not a christian but from what I hear from other christians from different churches is that Sun has done a lot of good through this project. Its just that the media portrays her as someone who just wants fame and uses this project as an excuse to do so.

Although I am not a christian, I find all their sharing quite meaningful and I want to have a better picture and that is why I go to the social media to find out. However, in doing so, I am quite horrified at the venom that some Singaporeans spew out against them. Its ok to feel upset or afraid that our kids will get cheated in the future but why so angry and make so personal remarks? Anyway, I am glad that I am starting to see a better picture as I read all the differing views.

The reason why there is so much animosity towards Sun Ho is that her two sides of lives seem to contradict one another so much. Anyone who has seen Sun Ho's latest MTVs such as China Wine, Kill Bill, etc will find it hard to believe that the same person they see on the MTV is supposed to be the same person who is an upright Christian and charitable off the screen. With public exposure, comes a certain expectation of moral and conduct. Remember when Jack Neo committed adultery and he had to apologize? For all we know, he could be an outstanding father and philantrophist as well. But does it matter for the general public? General public has a certain expectation of how a pastor's wife should act and look, and the public image of Sun Ho does not meet that at all. And to add fuel to the fire, Sun Ho herself defended her choice of lifestyle and insisted nothing was wrong. If that is not inviting criticism, I do not know what is.

I was there at the start of Project Crossover in CHC and also has personally witnessed some good things that arose from the Project and Sun Ho. People who are privy to this knowledge will view Sun Ho in a different light, but most people who are not will think otherwise.

SH videos contradict Christian values. Doing God's work should be according to His will n way.. When Jesus reach out to prostitutes, murderer, He did it without tarnishing His image n character, when His disciples reach out to siners they did not compromise their Christian values. Even in our daily life we should be light not dark among the darkness. What matter most in God's eyes is our obedience to His comanmendts, without obedience our achievements n good deeds hv no values... SH is free to sing secular songs with decent costume, decent dance n lyrics yet she choosed otherwise..

i know that there many good Christians in CHC, i hv friends who go to CHC, im not againts CHC as they are also part of Body of Christ, my dd was in CHC chidren ministry fr many yrs, still i disagree with SH videos.

[Dreamaurora]

phankao:

Dreamaurora:

[quote=\"Karenjj\"]

According to Wikipedia...
City Harvest Church is a non-denominational megachurch in Singapore. In Christianity, non-denominational institutions or churches are those not formally aligned with an established denomination, or that remain otherwise officially autonomous. Non-denominational is generally used to refer to one of two forms of independence: political or theological. Members of non-denominational churches often consider themselves simply \"Christians\".

I don't think it is a Protestant Church.

Thanks. Hmm, but CHC is in fact a member of NCCS which only admit Protestant churches. But i guess whether CHC fits the mold of what people perceive as a 'normal' Protestant Church is very debatable, hence I understand where you are coming from.

As long as it's not a Catholic church, then it's \"Protestant\", wat ... isn't it? Whether of one of the traditional denominations or non-denominational[/quote]Hmm, missed out this post initially. Actually it's not as simple as either you are Protestant or Catholic in Singapore. Ponyo has posted the definition of Protestanism in Singapore and a few churches Singapore do not fit that definition. Most notably is Church of Latter Day Saints (yes, their missionaries walk around with those big black tags). They are basically Mormons and use a different bible than the other Protestant Churches. Seventh Day Adventists is also generally regarded as non Protestant in Singapore and not registered under NCCS as well. But this one is more debatable, they still use the same Bible just that they have very strict customs, e.g. cannot eat pork.

I will refrain from calling these churches 'cults' although they are regarded by some Christians as such. I think we all can practice tolerance towards those with different beliefs than us.

[WeiHan]

Let me play devil advocate.

SilentHermit:

Camp B however believe that nothing was wrong. The crossover project is right as such, any money used to finance it is right. This group believe that the funds are provided voluntarily and the donors obviously allow the church to use it as they think fit. Thus if the management chooses to use it on the crossover project, which they think benefit the church's movement, what is wrong with that? It is not like KH transferred the money to his personal bank account and buy 20 properties for himself to get richer.

I think it has been mentioned. By registering themselves as a charitable organisation, they do enjoy some benefits such as exemption from tax for the profit they made in bond investments and the members who donated enjoy certain benefit too which I can't recall off hand now. So they actually walked in knowingly, wanting the benefit and i don't believe that people like them do not know about the obligation and rules that regulate them.

SilentHermit:

Not a straight forward case I think:
I suppose COC have a set of rules that say how things are supposed to be done. They should also have a set of guidelines that say collected money can be used for certain purposes and not for others. However, I suspect this is going to meet some obstacles at some point because when it comes to the issue of religion, it become a bit more difficult to gauge what is right or wrong. I say, as part of our practice, we must burn 3 tons of hell money on 7th month. Can COC comes in and say, come on, 1.5 tons is enough, you should not waste charity money. I say the crossover project is very important for us to reach certain groups of people, can COC show proof to say that the crossover project achieve nothing or the church should not use the crossover project to reach out, instead use other type of projects?

Do you think religious practices and beliefs should be above law or the law should be above all else knowing that Singapore is a secular state. So I agree with you, if someone is going to argue that specific practice of a particular religion is above the law, another religion will claim theirs is above the law too, it is going to get contentious and messy. And pardon me, I don't get your paper money analogy, paper money and singapore dollars is different. the authority definietly won't question how much paper you are going to burn. It is not starightforward indeed. But I have a hard time trying to rationalise how reaching a group of people to tell them about your religion is a form charity. I am not sure about singapore but in Western Europe, this argument will definitely be shot back. So, the onus isn't at COC side to prove whether the transfered money has achieved anything.

SilentHermit:

But then the 5 can still argue their way out by saying first, the crossover project is impt, then they have decided the way to finance it is by taking some money from here and there to make up the figures. KL suppose to pay 3 mil, now they dont have the money, so we donate to them first. Maybe when they have enough they can return us later.What is wrong with that?

There are rules that regulate transfering of charity money outside Singapore. If they have declared that it is for overseas charity, then the government may have taxed it. what have they declared become important. Very hard to argue along this line if they have covered up and avoided declaring the real purpose right from the beginning. Does CHC has proofs that they have plan right from the beginning to use the fund in the way intended i.e. \"benefitting\" Sun Ho to reach out to certain group of people?

SilentHermit:

Further speculation seems impossible as most of the facts are not out yet. The way I look at it, if they claim trial, then more details will come out. If they dont, which I doubt so, we will hear little less and left to wonder about the entire truth. As to why I suspect they wont plead guilty is because if they do, they are admitting that they have done wrong. This will damage the faith so many people have in them, not to mention, the punishment could be very harsh. Judging by the statements, tweets and FB so far, it seems like the 5, backed by the church are bracing themselves for a big showdown with the authorities. Expect many witnesses being called and a long long trial.

Like I said, CAD should have already recorded testimonies from some witnesses. CAd should have already asked the five to provide some explanations for the irregularities so a drastic change in argument becomes difficult, I guess.

[tutormum]

CMF:

http://theonlinecitizen.com/2012/06/death-of-a-halo-of-kong-hee-chc-and-christianity/

I can't agree with the writer more. The various videos and posts during the past few days allow everyone to make their own judgment. Non-Christians would not understand. They can make jokes and criticise. :sad: :sad: KH is not perfect, nobody is. He who has no sin cast the first stone. He is a sinner after all and for this Christ died for us, sinners. I don't agree to KH preaching on prosperity though he is very convincing. Yes, I agree that he sort of twisted God's word. :sad: We are promised blessings if WE ARE OBEDIENT to God's word. This is what is known as the 'if' promises of God. If we obey our parents, our lives will be long; if we obey God, He will bless those who bless us and curse those who curse us. This promise is particularly given to Israel, His chosen nation and history has proved that He means what He says. Somehow, KH didn't preach that. Instead his preaching was the more you sow, the more you'll reap in terms of monetary returns. True, to a certain extent, yet, it applies not only to finances but other aspects of our lives. Moreover, what you sow with your money but bring another form of returns e.g. if you feed a poor child by buying him a $3 bowl of noodles, it doesn't mean that God will give you $300. The grateful smile from the child is worth more than $300 and that's your return. I would say that KH has been very daring, if he has committed fraud. Imagine living the high life without any fear of being exposed. If he has led a low profile life, his crime may not be discovered. I thought that he has made it big in his business and his wife's singing career. Being a pastor is one of the low paying job one can find. Having a salary is a luxury. Pastors without a church are only paid when they preach at the invitation of a church. Most of them live very frugal lives trusting God to provide and you won't know where your next meal will come from. I don't understand why one should criticise KH supporters when they turned up for the court hearing. If one of my family members committed a crime, the lest I could do is to show emotional support by rallying around him. Elim Chew was spot on when she said that it is time like this that a family stand by each other. If my DH severed all ties with me when I'm in trouble, I'm much better off without him. This is the time for the church to come together to pray and seek God. This is the time to show love for a pastor who has served them for more than 20 years despite the fact that he failed them. You may have fought with your brother but if he has broken the law, what is the most naturally thing to do? Sit on the fence and watch the show? Pour oil over fire? With family members like this, who needs enemies? Outsiders don't know what is happening in the family so outsiders should refrain from judging or condemning. Even if they do, it won't affect the tie that binds. The rest of the CHC members is definitely kept in the dark if there's really a conspiracy to cheat or they would be arrested also. Thus I'm not surprised that the statement pleading innocency is made on behalf of CHC. So, why use a bamboo and hit the boat? :slapshead: Let the case runs its course and if they are found guilty, remember that we ourselves are not perfect. 2 Peter 3v14 \"Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 17 \"You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.\"
Replying to one post on speaking in tongues, you may read 1 Corinthians chapters 12, 13 and 14. The Holy Spirit gives spiritual gifts to whom He pleases. Tongue is one of them. Tongues is a spiritual gift from God as a sign to the unbelievers. Tongues is to help the believer to pray when he doesn't know how or what to pray. It releases the power of God. It is the Holy Spirit that gives utterance but the spirit man who prays. John 4v13 \"Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.” I speak in tongues and my mind is fruitless cos it doesn't come from my brain but my belly. I don't even know what I'm talking about. It is either a language of angels or men. So, if a person speak in tongues, it is not gibberish. If it is gibberish, it is not real. It should sound like a language to you. A preacher once said that when you first speak in tongues you only know a few words like a baby learning to talk and your vocab slowly increases. That's rubbish. If you are learning English e.g. maybe that's true cos you commit words and sentence structure to memory. If you speak in unknown tongues, how can you memorise the words and learn when you don't even know what language is that? One of my students' granny told me her story. She is an unbeliever but followed some friends to church. During prayers, they held hands and she suddenly burst into tongues. She was shocked and curious. A pastor heard her and told her that she was speaking a mixture of a few languages including English. This granny is illiterate and not even a Christian. When I went to some churches I felt very uncomfortable when they speaks in tongues cos there are some people who speaks so loudly as to show off that they can do it. It sounded more like a competition than prayers. :stupid: This is what Paul meant in Corinthians that everything must be done in order and he rather the church not speak in tongues though he himself spoke in tongues more than anybody. It was not that he was against speaking in tongues.
There are different churches cos people are divided over the doctrines. The most important thing is to find a church you are comfortable with. We don't have to agree 100% to what others say, just refer to the bible and let the Holy Spirit teach us. I was very well taught in a presbyterian church before becoming a charismatic. I am still me except that I now exercise the gifts of the Spirit. Therefore, except for Catholics, all Christians are the same. :celebrate:

[tutormum]

Dreamaurora:

shinri:

[quote=\"Dreamaurora\"]
I also wish it this way. But the last C in CHC stands for Church. Even if we other non-CHC Protestants would like to believe that CHC's practice is atypical of other Protestant churches, it is still a Protestant Church. And unfortunately, religion will come into discussion here because the funds collected here supposedly to further the cause of the Christian God.

CHC is protestant church?
I always thought it was one of those new denominations of Christianity..
what they call it... Charismatic?

LOL, yes it is considered as a Protestant Church. Charismatic is not technically a denomination, though if I am not wrong CHC is considered as a denomination by itself by NCCS (someone help me out here?)[/quote]They are an independent church that means they are not under under denomination. Charismatic is not a denomination. It is known as Charismatic cos Charis means gifts and we believe in the gifts of the Spirit. When Charismatic movement first started in 1960s in USA the protestant churches were against it cos they believed that gifts have ceased. However, gradually it spreads to them and even the Catholic churches also believe in the gifts of the Spirit hence there are Charismatic Catholics.

[tutormum]

WeiHan:

The attendance at CHC actually dropped for the first year in 2010 since 2000. I have a feeling that the trend continues in 2011 and 2012. Anybody has some estimate figure to confirm?

Latest is 25000. NC is about 30000

[tutormum]

kwcllf:

WeiHan:

The attendance at CHC actually dropped for the first year in 2010 since 2000. I have a feeling that the trend continues in 2011 and 2012. Anybody has some estimate figure to confirm?

Maybe someone can also feedback on their sermons the next few days?

You can watch live online, There's a service at 5pm tomorrow, just go to their website.

[tutormum]

verykiasu2010:

can someone attending CHC stop paying tithe there and start giving money else where ?

No. Tithe is to be paid to your own church. If I visit your church, I can give an offering but I have to give tithe to my own church for which I am either a member or a partner.