City Harvest's founder Kong Hee & 4 others arrested/charged
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it's very enlightening to hear the many views about City Harvest case here.
I think that Kong Hee and gang should get a chance to defend against the allegations against them, from a purely legal perspective.
I do hear many members of CHC defending KH passionately. I have no doubt that they do good for some people. But the questions remains ... is what they are doing in line with what the bible says?
Most would agree that CHC's sermons are based on a type of 'prosperity teachings'. Is prosperity preaching really in line with the teachings of the bible? The only way we can know is to examine the scriptures in the bible.
First I think we need to know what exactly is a prosperity preacher ....
The following text are taken from http://www.heprayed.com/PracticalDevotions/41
\" A prosperity preacher is one who claims to be a Christian, but whose teaching focuses on man’s happiness and prosperity in this life. He is a humanist. It’s amazing… the only time in scripture where Jesus got furious was when men used God’s temple to make money (Luke 19:45-46). These were money-grubbers setting up shop in the Lord’s house of prayer. \"
It happened in Jesus’ day and it’s happening in our day. This is exactly what hundreds and thousands of prosperity preachers are doing today. These men and women that stand up in their golden pulpits in designer clothing begging for money and making promises of healing and monetary return in the name of Christ should cause a holy anger in God’s children!
The immature believer will often find it hard to distinguish these false teachers. We must warn against these mammon worshippers that call themselves Christians as a doctor warns against a deadly poison advertised as a medicine. This false gospel is spreading like wildfire.\"
I find it absolutely incredulous that KH actually had a sermon which talked about Jesus being rich which is a direct contradict to the bible.
\" Prosperity preachers tend to live lavish lifestyles with fancy cars, large houses, expensive clothes. Jesus did not do this. He did not even carry a penny on him (Matt 22:19). He had no place to live. “Jesus replied, ‘Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.’” (Luke 9:58). \"
Some of the other behavior from the church which contradicts the bible are:
Prosperity preachers rarely preach against sin.
This is because they are concerned less about the soul than they are the body. They are concerned about this life more than they are eternity. Jesus preached against sin harder than anybody I’ve ever heard. When a man tells you to rather cut out your eye than sin, you can be sure that He’s serious about it (Matt 18:9). Listen very carefully and take note of how often a pastor talks about sin and speaks against it. This will tell you much about his own walk with the Lord.
There is ZERO fear of God in their preaching.
For all the gentle things that Jesus said to one person, He had a rebuke for another. He once called a Roman a man of great faith, and then called the Pharisees brood of vipers! The first is a picture of the Lord’s love, meekness and gentleness. How about the latter? Would you call Him “gentle Jesus” when He spoke to the Pharisees, calling them hypocrites, sons of Satan?! Our Lord was doing as the scripture commands : “And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.” (Jude 1:22-23). Prosperity preachers only follow the \"compassion\" part of that passage, for they are too fearful to rebuke. They believe in the love of God, but not the fear of God.
I think in the case of CHC and KH, there are two things involved. One- whether they have broken any laws of the country. Two- if what KH is preaching is truly what is from the bible or it's only being twisted to the church's own gain?
For question 1, we are yet to know the answer even though evidences so far are heavily stacked against KH and gang. For question 2, we will all have our opinions because it's something religious. BUT it is important to understand the BIBLE because if we truly trust that it is the word of GOD, then isn't it important to know the bible well enough to know if the pastor is preaching something against the word?
The members of CHC who are vehemently defending their leader has to ask this question ultimately ... is what KH and other pastors from CHC really preaching the WORD from the bible or are they, like most prosperity preachers merely using parts of the bible to further their gain?
Just my two cents worth,
KC -
The parents better be concerned. When i was in sec school, there was a chapel near my school and naturally quite a number of my school students were invited by friends to go there. I was invited there as well, and from there I heard that some of the teenagers were told to leave home if their parents stopped them from attending the church and the people in the church (including some teachers from my school) would put them up at their house. They were told that their parents in earth is not important, it is the 天父 that was the important one.
phtthp:
Concerned parents of City Harvest youths turn up for service
\"Even as thousands continued to show up at City Harvest Church at their second English service this weekend, caution has started to seep into parts of its congregation about church donations.
Several adults were seen accompanying their teenage children during the service but remaining seated and silent throughout the service. When Yahoo! spoke to some outside the conference hall, they said they were not churchgoers but parents of youths who attended service regularly.
“I’m still okay with my son going for service at CHC – he’s grown up and it’s his choice, but I was worried when I found out you could make donations through credit card – he uses our supplementary card and I’m not comfortable with him donating to a church that I personally wish was more accountable,” said a bank executive, 56, who wanted to be known as Mr Lim.
Another parent, Mdm Sally Low, 48, said she had attended to “hear Pastor Kong’s side of the story”.
“The newspapers are saying one thing, but my daughter says it’s not true. So I’m here to make sure my daughter doesn’t anyhow (sic) believe everything she hears,” said the mother of a 16-year-old churchgoer.\"
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/concerned-parents-of-city-harvest-youths-turn-up-for-service.html -
Read this on Channelnewsasia forum:
http://forum.channelnewsasia.com/showthread.php?119116-Kong-Hee-amp-the-breed.-It-s-not-the-end-of-CHC-it-s-only-the-beginning-HOGC
Kong Hee & the breed. It's not the end of CHC, it's only the beginning HOGC
Since 2002/3 I attended chc and have always questioned why the church needed to plaster Sun Ho's posters ALL AROUND THE CHURCH - from-wall-to-wall. I was there for service to fellowship and to worship our almighty God but each and everytime I went during those early days, I was greeted by our celebrity wannabe pastor Ho in the name of a certain crossover. After many many many weekends, I decided that I shall crossover too because our paths surely did not cross with one another. One have crossed to the dark side. It’s either me or the leaders of chc. I left.
I left not because of posters plastering or blasting of Sun Ho music before the service began or the non-stop, constant promotion and pushing of Sun Ho ho album sales by pastor Kong in church. But the fundamental calling to fellowship in church has been completely turned around by the church to pursue fame and wealth that resulted in every service is about GIVING AND MORE WEALTH, money and more money. It can go on for weeks and it become very scary especially during building fund season. Everyone just wants to give more and more money so they can have more and more money. If you are there to seek refuge for other emotional needs, you will probably ended up dead because this is not a church for a broken soul. It is the church for the money hungry souls.
And I know Pastor Kong Hee has to live up to his preaching hence he needs to show he is rich, through the years. How can a man preach about richess and wealth when he is a church poor mouse? He needs to get rich and get rich fast, if not its not convincible that every weekend he is talking about getting wealth.
The crossover in my opinion from a close member of chc, is so the chc leaders acquire the worldly rich and fame because they want to, they aspire and are called to. They are a bunch of show-offs. If you have meetings with them you will understand what Christ-show-offs are - It's all in the clothes, in the tone of voice, in the attitude, in the eyes. The richer you are, the more time pastors have with you because you are valuable assets.
Chc has leaders tracking members 10% tithes, and also their building funds commitment. They have cards and notes with your commitment in writing how much you are offering whether paid installment or lump sum and you must follow through. I was on many occasions asked to pen down my commitment in giving because it is for the big picture for chc accounts to know what to expect a month in receiving. To help them account for it. It helps chc accounts department to trace and track too, who committed but never pay up so that they can follow up with you...
I have seen with my own eyes, hear with my own ears that chc leaders holding their “accountable” book asking members why their building fund sum for the month was not in. Have they paid up? By what means, cheque, cash, giro. And if not done yet, well there is machine to withdraw money from or better there is credit card mode of payment which can earn points!!! The feeling is just so terribly awful looking at the leader and the young man who is “reminded” to pay up. Shouldn’t we all be happy giver. Cheerful giver. Why the need to haunt and remind people to give. This method liken a debt collector within the premise of a church. If god visited chc at that instant moment or see all the money collection department coming down on their people to pay pay and pay up, what would he say? I really wish god can provide me with wisdom – tell me god that perhaps I am the blind one who didn’t see and didn’t know. What has become of our church. Is money all that matter? I left really disillusioned. I know what the people said of me from chc. I have gone to the dark side. -
buds:
SilentHermit..
You have broken your silence with your detailed analysis on the CHC Saga. :salute: straightforward.. clear headed.. totally unbiased. :salute:
Hoping you'd come out of your shell to join us more often in other discussions. It will be nice to have more of your thoughts and writings pertaining to other subject headers. :evil:
Looking forward to read you.
TQ for your comments.
When this CHC case started, I was searching all over for information to better understand the case. In the process, I stumbled upon a blog, which suggested that so far, the discussions here (kiasu parent) is the best, very measured and objective. So for the first time, I came in here and read on stuffs people here have written. It turned out that the blog was correct and I find people here more civilized. i.e. no vulgar & twisted comments about things. So, in that manner, my silence was broken.
BTW, SilentHermit is a nick I registered right after 2011 GE. I have intended to write about Singapore and its government, but I have not gotten down to it yet (after so long lol).
I have enjoyed my stay here so far and I believe I will make regular visits. -
I agree with what KC Tan said about the soundness of teachings. Without commenting on the criminal case or the character of KH, one can easily look up KH's teachings and critique them as the fighting for the faith website has done.
I particularly disagree with the exhortation to give regardless of one's financial condition. This is absolute nonsense.
What this recent scandal highlighted is the need for parents to guard their kids against incorrect teachings/ influences. When kids are experiencing teenage angst and start to distance themselves from parents, it's hard to control what they think or do. Obviously parents don't look as cool and friendly/loving as people who dress like them or \"understand\" their needs. Perhaps it's necessary to arm them with knowledge from a younger age as a defence mechanism. Here's an interesting article that could be shared with kids:
http://www.cultwatch.com/HowPastorsGetRich.html
This matter may eventually blow over and be forgotten but then, who's to say that no new alternatives would rise up eventually? -
Just find it strange that why NCCS endorse these churches if their teaching are questionable? :?
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SilentHermit:
You're welcome, SilentHermit. You provide excellent analysis and thought about the cases without taking any sides. The people frequenting this forum are mostly parents and educators, so I guess we owe it to our children and students to at least conduct our business as civil as possible so they won't think we are hooligans. And we have good Mods here too.buds:
SilentHermit..
You have broken your silence with your detailed analysis on the CHC Saga. :salute: straightforward.. clear headed.. totally unbiased. :salute:
Hoping you'd come out of your shell to join us more often in other discussions. It will be nice to have more of your thoughts and writings pertaining to other subject headers. :evil:
Looking forward to read you.
TQ for your comments.
When this CHC case started, I was searching all over for information to better understand the case. In the process, I stumbled upon a blog, which suggested that so far, the discussions here (kiasu parent) is the best, very measured and objective. So for the first time, I came in here and read on stuffs people here have written. It turned out that the blog was correct and I find people here more civilized. i.e. no vulgar & twisted comments about things. So, in that manner, my silence was broken.
BTW, SilentHermit is a nick I registered right after 2011 GE. I have intended to write about Singapore and its government, but I have not gotten down to it yet (after so long lol).
I have enjoyed my stay here so far and I believe I will make regular visits. -
kctan:
As a non-Christian, we are always told to pray sincerely, warned of the \"poisons\" in life, the stupidity and arrogance of humans that will create negative karma and that our ultimate goal in life is gaining enlightenment.it's very enlightening to hear the many views about City Harvest case here.
I think that Kong Hee and gang should get a chance to defend against the allegations against them, from a purely legal perspective.
I do hear many members of CHC defending KH passionately. I have no doubt that they do good for some people. But the questions remains ... is what they are doing in line with what the bible says?
Most would agree that CHC's sermons are based on a type of 'prosperity teachings'. Is prosperity preaching really in line with the teachings of the bible? The only way we can know is to examine the scriptures in the bible.
First I think we need to know what exactly is a prosperity preacher ....
The following text are taken from http://www.heprayed.com/PracticalDevotions/41
\" A prosperity preacher is one who claims to be a Christian, but whose teaching focuses on man’s happiness and prosperity in this life. He is a humanist. It’s amazing… the only time in scripture where Jesus got furious was when men used God’s temple to make money (Luke 19:45-46). These were money-grubbers setting up shop in the Lord’s house of prayer. \"
It happened in Jesus’ day and it’s happening in our day. This is exactly what hundreds and thousands of prosperity preachers are doing today. These men and women that stand up in their golden pulpits in designer clothing begging for money and making promises of healing and monetary return in the name of Christ should cause a holy anger in God’s children!
The immature believer will often find it hard to distinguish these false teachers. We must warn against these mammon worshippers that call themselves Christians as a doctor warns against a deadly poison advertised as a medicine. This false gospel is spreading like wildfire.\"
I find it absolutely incredulous that KH actually had a sermon which talked about Jesus being rich which is a direct contradict to the bible.
\" Prosperity preachers tend to live lavish lifestyles with fancy cars, large houses, expensive clothes. Jesus did not do this. He did not even carry a penny on him (Matt 22:19). He had no place to live. “Jesus replied, ‘Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.’” (Luke 9:58). \"
Some of the other behavior from the church which contradicts the bible are:
Prosperity preachers rarely preach against sin.
This is because they are concerned less about the soul than they are the body. They are concerned about this life more than they are eternity. Jesus preached against sin harder than anybody I’ve ever heard. When a man tells you to rather cut out your eye than sin, you can be sure that He’s serious about it (Matt 18:9). Listen very carefully and take note of how often a pastor talks about sin and speaks against it. This will tell you much about his own walk with the Lord.
There is ZERO fear of God in their preaching.
For all the gentle things that Jesus said to one person, He had a rebuke for another. He once called a Roman a man of great faith, and then called the Pharisees brood of vipers! The first is a picture of the Lord’s love, meekness and gentleness. How about the latter? Would you call Him “gentle Jesus” when He spoke to the Pharisees, calling them hypocrites, sons of Satan?! Our Lord was doing as the scripture commands : “And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.” (Jude 1:22-23). Prosperity preachers only follow the \"compassion\" part of that passage, for they are too fearful to rebuke. They believe in the love of God, but not the fear of God.
I think in the case of CHC and KH, there are two things involved. One- whether they have broken any laws of the country. Two- if what KH is preaching is truly what is from the bible or it's only being twisted to the church's own gain?
For question 1, we are yet to know the answer even though evidences so far are heavily stacked against KH and gang. For question 2, we will all have our opinions because it's something religious. BUT it is important to understand the BIBLE because if we truly trust that it is the word of GOD, then isn't it important to know the bible well enough to know if the pastor is preaching something against the word?
The members of CHC who are vehemently defending their leader has to ask this question ultimately ... is what KH and other pastors from CHC really preaching the WORD from the bible or are they, like most prosperity preachers merely using parts of the bible to further their gain?
Just my two cents worth,
KC
Prosperity is never preached although it is not wrong to be rich if we work hard and ethically for it. -
znzyzyzx:
These are the people who give Christianity a bad name. I remember when I was a teenager and just accepted Christ when I read this news:The parents better be concerned. When i was in sec school, there was a chapel near my school and naturally quite a number of my school students were invited by friends to go there. I was invited there as well, and from there I heard that some of the teenagers were told to leave home if their parents stopped them from attending the church and the people in the church (including some teachers from my school) would put them up at their house. They were told that their parents in earth is not important, it is the 天父 that was the important one.
phtthp:
Concerned parents of City Harvest youths turn up for service
\"Even as thousands continued to show up at City Harvest Church at their second English service this weekend, caution has started to seep into parts of its congregation about church donations.
Several adults were seen accompanying their teenage children during the service but remaining seated and silent throughout the service. When Yahoo! spoke to some outside the conference hall, they said they were not churchgoers but parents of youths who attended service regularly.
“I’m still okay with my son going for service at CHC – he’s grown up and it’s his choice, but I was worried when I found out you could make donations through credit card – he uses our supplementary card and I’m not comfortable with him donating to a church that I personally wish was more accountable,” said a bank executive, 56, who wanted to be known as Mr Lim.
Another parent, Mdm Sally Low, 48, said she had attended to “hear Pastor Kong’s side of the story”.
“The newspapers are saying one thing, but my daughter says it’s not true. So I’m here to make sure my daughter doesn’t anyhow (sic) believe everything she hears,” said the mother of a 16-year-old churchgoer.\"
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/concerned-parents-of-city-harvest-youths-turn-up-for-service.html
A teenager committed suicide cos he refused to attend a 7 month celebrations when asked to do so by his parents. When his parents insisted he told them that there were other gods there and rather die than go there. His parents were naturally heart-broken. Young people need lots of guidance and I'm upset that the recent trend is lots of young people are ushered into God's Kingdom by simply respond to an altar call and pray the sinner's prayer. I did actually ask a church worker in my church what programs are in store to ensure that these new believers are rooted in the word. Sadly, it seems that unless you attend a church which gives solid teachings, these youths are as lost as they first accepted Christ. I was 'fortunate' if I can use this word cos I went through a few basic courses to understand what Christianity is all about before making my decision. I prayed the sinner's prayer and accepted Christ all on my own. :boogie: My DSs are 'fortunate' cos they have a godly mother to guide them. They were given freedom to decide for themselves but attended Sunday school when young. For those teenagers whose parents are not Christians, they are the ones whom we should worry about. One of my friends told me that her friend, who is not a Christian, is very concerned cos her DD is attending CHC and feel that her DD is too involved in church activities. To make matters worse, her DD is very defiant at home. She is very angry with the church cos she's wondering if this is what the church is teaching her DD. To be fair, at the end of one of the festival of Praise which I attended with DSs, a speaker from CHC told the youths (there were obviously at least 80%) to call their parents to inform of their whereabouts. The church has to know that it is open to criticism and scrutiny when the charges under them do not conduct themselves in manner that glorifies Christ. This gives raise to one of the posts which ask who would you save first, your father or pastor? To me, the question should be : who do you save first, your father or Christ? \"Pastor\" means the church definitely didn't preach Christ and He is obviously not acknowledged as head of the church. The bible teaches us to honor our parents and Jesus even rebuked the Pharisees and scribes Mark 7 v 9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’;[d] and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’[e] 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
One good thing that comes out of this KH saga is that non-Christians are learning more about Christianity when otherwise they would have nothing to do with this 'Western God' who died on the cross. This is a golden opportunity for us, Christians, to straighten any misconceptions and share our faith.
-
kwcllf:
I have great respect for Buddha's teachings too. I think the theme of giving, sacrifice, love, reaping what you sow/'karma' are universal themes that are present in the major religions.
As a non-Christian, we are always told to pray sincerely, warned of the \"poisons\" in life, the stupidity and arrogance of humans that will create negative karma and that our ultimate goal in life is gaining enlightenment.kctan:
it's very enlightening to hear the many views about City Harvest case here.
I think that Kong Hee and gang should get a chance to defend against the allegations against them, from a purely legal perspective.
I do hear many members of CHC defending KH passionately. I have no doubt that they do good for some people. But the questions remains ... is what they are doing in line with what the bible says?
Most would agree that CHC's sermons are based on a type of 'prosperity teachings'. Is prosperity preaching really in line with the teachings of the bible? The only way we can know is to examine the scriptures in the bible.
First I think we need to know what exactly is a prosperity preacher ....
The following text are taken from http://www.heprayed.com/PracticalDevotions/41
\" A prosperity preacher is one who claims to be a Christian, but whose teaching focuses on man’s happiness and prosperity in this life. He is a humanist. It’s amazing… the only time in scripture where Jesus got furious was when men used God’s temple to make money (Luke 19:45-46). These were money-grubbers setting up shop in the Lord’s house of prayer. \"
It happened in Jesus’ day and it’s happening in our day. This is exactly what hundreds and thousands of prosperity preachers are doing today. These men and women that stand up in their golden pulpits in designer clothing begging for money and making promises of healing and monetary return in the name of Christ should cause a holy anger in God’s children!
The immature believer will often find it hard to distinguish these false teachers. We must warn against these mammon worshippers that call themselves Christians as a doctor warns against a deadly poison advertised as a medicine. This false gospel is spreading like wildfire.\"
I find it absolutely incredulous that KH actually had a sermon which talked about Jesus being rich which is a direct contradict to the bible.
\" Prosperity preachers tend to live lavish lifestyles with fancy cars, large houses, expensive clothes. Jesus did not do this. He did not even carry a penny on him (Matt 22:19). He had no place to live. “Jesus replied, ‘Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.’” (Luke 9:58). \"
Some of the other behavior from the church which contradicts the bible are:
Prosperity preachers rarely preach against sin.
This is because they are concerned less about the soul than they are the body. They are concerned about this life more than they are eternity. Jesus preached against sin harder than anybody I’ve ever heard. When a man tells you to rather cut out your eye than sin, you can be sure that He’s serious about it (Matt 18:9). Listen very carefully and take note of how often a pastor talks about sin and speaks against it. This will tell you much about his own walk with the Lord.
There is ZERO fear of God in their preaching.
For all the gentle things that Jesus said to one person, He had a rebuke for another. He once called a Roman a man of great faith, and then called the Pharisees brood of vipers! The first is a picture of the Lord’s love, meekness and gentleness. How about the latter? Would you call Him “gentle Jesus” when He spoke to the Pharisees, calling them hypocrites, sons of Satan?! Our Lord was doing as the scripture commands : “And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.” (Jude 1:22-23). Prosperity preachers only follow the \"compassion\" part of that passage, for they are too fearful to rebuke. They believe in the love of God, but not the fear of God.
I think in the case of CHC and KH, there are two things involved. One- whether they have broken any laws of the country. Two- if what KH is preaching is truly what is from the bible or it's only being twisted to the church's own gain?
For question 1, we are yet to know the answer even though evidences so far are heavily stacked against KH and gang. For question 2, we will all have our opinions because it's something religious. BUT it is important to understand the BIBLE because if we truly trust that it is the word of GOD, then isn't it important to know the bible well enough to know if the pastor is preaching something against the word?
The members of CHC who are vehemently defending their leader has to ask this question ultimately ... is what KH and other pastors from CHC really preaching the WORD from the bible or are they, like most prosperity preachers merely using parts of the bible to further their gain?
Just my two cents worth,
KC
Prosperity is never preached although it is not wrong to be rich if we work hard and ethically for it.
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