Is GEP really necessary?

[Imami]

Nebbermind:

Imami:

Well, does pam believe in God?

By the way, just wondering if you or Pam went thru our own pri school system yourselves coz some of your writings seem to give me the impression that u only 1st tasted our school system thru yr kids.

Do you think it will make a diff if Chen had gone thru our pri sch education system?

Well, knowing it will help me better understanding some of the things she's saying. Eg, in the case of forum writer, knowing his backgrd allow me to understanding why he's making certain remarks even if I donch quite agree.[/quote]

Ah, understand. It is more for the readers to understand the point of view of the writers. :idea:

[Chenonceau]

jtoh:

Hi Chen,

Thanks for sharing. Can you help me with the following scenario.

Student A & Student B both have equally excellent A level results, sporting and leadership achievements etc. Student A is from RI/HCI. Student B from a less academically competitive school. Student A is an above average student in RI/HCI, but not the top student. Student B is a top student in this average school.

Does that mean that Student B will be offered a place in Cambridge, Oxford, Princeton, Harvard and the like over Student A? Has this actually happened, ie a student like Student B was offered a place in Oxbridge and the Ivy Leagues this year?

What if Student B has less outstanding A level results, sporting achievement etc compared to Student A but is still the top student in his less competitive school. Will he still be viewed more favorably than Student A by these top universities?

Thanks.

I need to be careful here in order not to mislead. I am no expert. I can only share my own experience. Pam is a better person to answer your question. The following is a very very tentative answer.

Question A
Student A & Student B both have equally excellent A level results, sporting and leadership achievements etc. Student A is from RI/HCI. Student B from a less academically competitive school. Student A is an above average student in RI/HCI, but not the top student. Student B is a top student in this average school.

If the 2 students are EQUAL in every respect, then yes... I think the one from the less academically inclined school will pip the other. Why? The one from RI had differential input (from the school) than the one from the less academically inclined school. The one from RI (Student A) had access to better quality, and more of it. Therefore, Student A should have achieved more than parity with Student B. This system is more fair than our PSLE where we only look at t-score even whilst we KNOW that different schools have differential input.

The only way the Ivy Leagues can assess with a view to differential INPUT is to take the pinnacle from every school. I do know a girl from NJC that got to Stanford. Pinnacle in NJC. Now... there are some who will say that Stanford isn't really the top, but that is the only example I have for this. Oh yes... I also know a young man in Harvard now from St Andrew's Junior College. He could have made RI/RJC but his mother (a school principal) chose to put him in St Andrew's instead. He too was pinnacle in SAJC. BUT this boy missed out on every PSC scholarship because PSC looks at RAW BEST and disregards differential input.

If you read this article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2154243/Teen-goes-sleeping-park-benches-Harvard-dorm-room-years-homeless.html) it may become clear that Harvard does not take in the absolute RAW BEST. They take in the BEST of whatever social/educational circumstances the student came from. Do you think that a girl who slept on park benches can have won all the prized at sport my girl won... or the research awards... or published a book? I doubt. However, the girl reached somewhere WAY beyond what one would normally expect from a HOMELESS person.

I have also heard that Harvard takes in people with somewhat poorer results too. Squash players, gymnasts etc... because Harvard wants exceptional talent in diverse areas. If you are world seeded or have a mother like Amy Chua (AND good results because Tiger Sophia was also valedictorian)... are a famous actress (with good results)... that counts too. Ivy Leagues don't want cookies. They want unique individuals. Our formula where we give opportunities to everyone in the same JC doesn't quite work because all the CVs look the same when they get there... CIP, VP, Silver, Gold.... blah blah blah... Watch the movie \"21\" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0478087/) and pay special attention to the main character's scholarship interview. It gives you a small small taste of what Harvard looks for EVEN IF you're just looking at Harvard admission not scholarship.

For us, I KNEW... many years ago... and I did tell DD that she should eschew the opportunities provided by the school and create her own niche outside. Some students do that. One had such a vibrant life OUTSIDE the JCs choreographing dance. He made quite a name for himself... was LAST in GEP all his life (according to him) but Harvard took him. He was THAT good in the dance scene and of course, turned in his distinctions (or pretty much).

I have known this for many years. I tried to guide my DD towards a more distinctive portfolio BUT she had other ideas. I backed off. I don't really mind non Ivy League you see so I didn't put in much effort to motivate and convince. At some point, a Mom has to respect the child's autonomy and since I didn't think she would damage her future in any way, I did not insist. Added to that, I consoled myself that learning to blend in was far more important in the long run.

I let it go.



Question B
What if Student B has less outstanding A level results, sporting achievement etc compared to Student A but is still the top student in his less competitive school. Will he still be viewed more favorably than Student A by these top universities?

I don't know the answer to this question but perhaps, you can project the answer from what I wrote above?

Hope this helps

[PiggyLalala]

Chenonceau:

jtoh:

Hi Chen,

Thanks for sharing. Can you help me with the following scenario.

Student A & Student B both have equally excellent A level results, sporting and leadership achievements etc. Student A is from RI/HCI. Student B from a less academically competitive school. Student A is an above average student in RI/HCI, but not the top student. Student B is a top student in this average school.

Does that mean that Student B will be offered a place in Cambridge, Oxford, Princeton, Harvard and the like over Student A? Has this actually happened, ie a student like Student B was offered a place in Oxbridge and the Ivy Leagues this year?

What if Student B has less outstanding A level results, sporting achievement etc compared to Student A but is still the top student in his less competitive school. Will he still be viewed more favorably than Student A by these top universities?

Thanks.

I need to be careful here in order not to mislead. I am no expert. I can only share my own experience. Pam is a better person to answer your question. The following is a very very tentative answer.

Question A
Student A & Student B both have equally excellent A level results, sporting and leadership achievements etc. Student A is from RI/HCI. Student B from a less academically competitive school. Student A is an above average student in RI/HCI, but not the top student. Student B is a top student in this average school.

If the 2 students are EQUAL in every respect, then yes... I think the one from the less academically inclined school will pip the other. Why? The one from RI had differential input (from the school) than the one from the less academically inclined school. The one from RI (Student A) had access to better quality, and more of it. Therefore, Student A should have achieved more than parity with Student B. This system is more fair than our PSLE where we only look at t-score even whilst we KNOW that different schools have differential input.

The only way the Ivy Leagues can assess with a view to differential INPUT is to take the pinnacle from every school. I do know a girl from NJC that got to Stanford. Pinnacle in NJC. Now... there are some who will say that Stanford isn't really the top, but that is the only example I have for this. Oh yes... I also know a young man in Harvard now from St Andrew's Junior College. He could have made RI/RJC but his mother (a school principal) chose to put him in St Andrew's instead. He too was pinnacle in SAJC.

If you read this article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2154243/Teen-goes-sleeping-park-benches-Harvard-dorm-room-years-homeless.html) it may become clear that Harvard does not take in the absolute RAW BEST. They take in the BEST of whatever social/educational circumstances the student came from. Do you think that a girl who slept on park benches can have won all the prized at sport my girl won... or the research awards... or published a book? I doubt. However, the girl reached somewhere WAY beyond what one would normally expect from a HOMELESS person.

I have also heard that Harvard takes in people with somewhat poorer results too. Squash players, gymnasts etc... because Harvard wants exceptional talent in diverse areas. If you are world seeded or have a mother like Amy Chua (AND good results)... are a famous actress (with good results)... that counts too. Ivy Leagues don't want cookies. They want unique individuals. Our formula where we give opportunities to everyone in the same JC doesn't quite work because all the CVs look the same when they get there... CIP, VP, Silver, Gold.... blah blah blah... Watch the movie \"21\" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0478087/) and pay special attention to the main character's scholarship interview. It gives you a small small taste of what Harvard looks for EVEN IF you're just looking at Harvard admission not scholarship.

For us, I KNEW... many years ago... and I did tell DD that she should eschew the opportunities provided by the school and create her own niche outside. Some students do that. One had such a vibrant life OUTSIDE the JCs choreographing dance. He made quite a name for himself... was LAST in GEP all his life (according to him) but Harvard took him. He was THAT good in the dance scene and of course, turned in his distinctions (or pretty much).

I have known this for many years. I tried to guide my DD towards a more distinctive portfolio BUT she had other ideas. I backed off. I don't really mind non Ivy League you see so I didn't put in much effort to motivate and convince. At some point, a Mom has to respect the child's autonomy and since I didn't think she would damage her future in any way, I did not insist. Added to that, I consoled myself that learning to blend in was far more important in the long run.

I let it go.

Thanks for yr sharing on the ivy league and parenting. U are a very wise mommy.

[Chenonceau]

PiggyLalala:

Chenonceau:

[quote=\"jtoh\"]
Hi Chen,

Thanks for sharing. Can you help me with the following scenario.

Student A & Student B both have equally excellent A level results, sporting and leadership achievements etc. Student A is from RI/HCI. Student B from a less academically competitive school. Student A is an above average student in RI/HCI, but not the top student. Student B is a top student in this average school.

Does that mean that Student B will be offered a place in Cambridge, Oxford, Princeton, Harvard and the like over Student A? Has this actually happened, ie a student like Student B was offered a place in Oxbridge and the Ivy Leagues this year?

What if Student B has less outstanding A level results, sporting achievement etc compared to Student A but is still the top student in his less competitive school. Will he still be viewed more favorably than Student A by these top universities?

Thanks.

I need to be careful here in order not to mislead. I am no expert. I can only share my own experience. Pam is a better person to answer your question. The following is a very very tentative answer.

Question A
Student A & Student B both have equally excellent A level results, sporting and leadership achievements etc. Student A is from RI/HCI. Student B from a less academically competitive school. Student A is an above average student in RI/HCI, but not the top student. Student B is a top student in this average school.

If the 2 students are EQUAL in every respect, then yes... I think the one from the less academically inclined school will pip the other. Why? The one from RI had differential input (from the school) than the one from the less academically inclined school. The one from RI (Student A) had access to better quality, and more of it. Therefore, Student A should have achieved more than parity with Student B. This system is more fair than our PSLE where we only look at t-score even whilst we KNOW that different schools have differential input.

The only way the Ivy Leagues can assess with a view to differential INPUT is to take the pinnacle from every school. I do know a girl from NJC that got to Stanford. Pinnacle in NJC. Now... there are some who will say that Stanford isn't really the top, but that is the only example I have for this. Oh yes... I also know a young man in Harvard now from St Andrew's Junior College. He could have made RI/RJC but his mother (a school principal) chose to put him in St Andrew's instead. He too was pinnacle in SAJC.

If you read this article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2154243/Teen-goes-sleeping-park-benches-Harvard-dorm-room-years-homeless.html) it may become clear that Harvard does not take in the absolute RAW BEST. They take in the BEST of whatever social/educational circumstances the student came from. Do you think that a girl who slept on park benches can have won all the prized at sport my girl won... or the research awards... or published a book? I doubt. However, the girl reached somewhere WAY beyond what one would normally expect from a HOMELESS person.

I have also heard that Harvard takes in people with somewhat poorer results too. Squash players, gymnasts etc... because Harvard wants exceptional talent in diverse areas. If you are world seeded or have a mother like Amy Chua (AND good results)... are a famous actress (with good results)... that counts too. Ivy Leagues don't want cookies. They want unique individuals. Our formula where we give opportunities to everyone in the same JC doesn't quite work because all the CVs look the same when they get there... CIP, VP, Silver, Gold.... blah blah blah... Watch the movie \"21\" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0478087/) and pay special attention to the main character's scholarship interview. It gives you a small small taste of what Harvard looks for EVEN IF you're just looking at Harvard admission not scholarship.

For us, I KNEW... many years ago... and I did tell DD that she should eschew the opportunities provided by the school and create her own niche outside. Some students do that. One had such a vibrant life OUTSIDE the JCs choreographing dance. He made quite a name for himself... was LAST in GEP all his life (according to him) but Harvard took him. He was THAT good in the dance scene and of course, turned in his distinctions (or pretty much).

I have known this for many years. I tried to guide my DD towards a more distinctive portfolio BUT she had other ideas. I backed off. I don't really mind non Ivy League you see so I didn't put in much effort to motivate and convince. At some point, a Mom has to respect the child's autonomy and since I didn't think she would damage her future in any way, I did not insist. Added to that, I consoled myself that learning to blend in was far more important in the long run.

I let it go.

Thanks for yr sharing on the ivy league and parenting. U are a very wise mommy.[/quote]You're welcome but dun take my word for it. I am not absolutely sure. This is what my logic tells me from what I have seen. Also, I have edited my post above to include the fact that Tiger Sophia was pinnacle in her school.

[2ppaamm]

naggo-nitemare:

PiggyLalala:

Just my views.

There are pupils in the GE program that come from the humble family background. Maybe in certain GEP centres, there are more kids that are the middle upper class families. But in other centres,l ike Rosyth, Catholic and Nan Hua, I believed there are many pupils staying in humble HDB estates like Woodlands, Serangoon, Yishun and Chua Chu Kang. Families like ours, where the children's IQ may be higher than the parents, we are grateful to have the GE program to enrich our children's education.

Me too. I'm v grateful.

I am sure we are all grateful when given some opportunities. If we were to assume IQ is distributed equally among people of all social status, then for every GEP child whose IQ is higher than their parents', there is also another 99 less capable children with IQ higher than their parents'. They would need that EEIS or scholarship for the rest of their education more than the GEPers who are financially well off.

Here is my next thought. I am totally for providing financial help. In fact, I don't agree to those independent school concept, it is like semi-government schools and private school wanna-be, I believe those schools should be free like government schools. But that is for another discussion. My suggestion is to provide scholarship based upon the PSLE results alone, and have the same standard for ALL students, not one for the GEPpers, and another for the non. Don't you think that would be much fairer to everyone? And, if the GEPper kid is smarter, he will get his scholarship anyway.

You will be just as grateful, without people giving you the :roll: You see, in one case, you earned it on a level playing field. On another, it is some kind of entitlement. Which would people 服？

[2ppaamm]

PiggyLalala:

2ppaamm:

Secondly, GEP robs me of time. Though none has ever gone to tuition, there is a ton of homework to do, a lot of projects I found meaningless, not because of the content, but the expectation of the teachers. They expect kids to put up professional work which then require adult supervision. I believe they should just submit their own work for marking, instead of having the teacher mark and re-mark and then submit to MOE and the 9 schools compare. Whose work is being marked? Teachers', parents' or kids'? Also, my kid won't do the homework, because it is repetitive. My kids have 'character' :frustrated: or whatever you call that. Once they have learned something, they expect to be fed new information or moved to the next level. There is no way they will do that thing again another 20 times. While I understand high ability kids will, my kids won't and most of my time was spent asking them to comply and do those, knowing they have already mastered the topics.

I think you are refering to the drafts 1, 2 and maybe 3 for the SS projects and the English Compositions. You seemed like against the idea of the pupils doing a few drafts and you think that the reason why the teachers did that is because they need to submit a list of good grades for MOE to review. ( I hope I did not misunderstood what you have written above.)
However, for me, I am very appreciative because with the teachers' feedback and comments, my boys can improve his work after each draft. I thought that was something positive in the GE program. However, on the other hand, because of the higher standard and the time spent in improving each piece of work, the pupils have lesser drilling time for PSLE.

Ok, help me understand this. Prior to the drafts, were the kids guided on how they should write for these? If so, how were they guided?

[2ppaamm]

Chenonceau:

If the 2 students are EQUAL in every respect, then yes... I think the one from the less academically inclined school will pip the other. Why? The one from RI had differential input (from the school) than the one from the less academically inclined school. The one from RI (Student A) had access to better quality, and more of it. Therefore, Student A should have achieved more than parity with Student B. This system is more fair than our PSLE where we only look at t-score even whilst we KNOW that different schools have differential input.

The only way the Ivy Leagues can assess with a view to differential INPUT is to take the pinnacle from every school. I do know a girl from NJC that got to Stanford. Pinnacle in NJC. Now... there are some who will say that Stanford isn't really the top, but that is the only example I have for this. Oh yes... I also know a young man in Harvard now from St Andrew's Junior College. He could have made RI/RJC but his mother (a school principal) chose to put him in St Andrew's instead. He too was pinnacle in SAJC. BUT this boy missed out on every PSC scholarship because PSC looks at RAW BEST and disregards differential input.

If you read this article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2154243/Teen-goes-sleeping-park-benches-Harvard-dorm-room-years-homeless.html) it may become clear that Harvard does not take in the absolute RAW BEST. They take in the BEST of whatever social/educational circumstances the student came from. Do you think that a girl who slept on park benches can have won all the prized at sport my girl won... or the research awards... or published a book? I doubt. However, the girl reached somewhere WAY beyond what one would normally expect from a HOMELESS person.

I have also heard that Harvard takes in people with somewhat poorer results too. Squash players, gymnasts etc... because Harvard wants exceptional talent in diverse areas. If you are world seeded or have a mother like Amy Chua (AND good results because Tiger Sophia was also valedictorian)... are a famous actress (with good results)... that counts too. Ivy Leagues don't want cookies. They want unique individuals. Our formula where we give opportunities to everyone in the same JC doesn't quite work because all the CVs look the same when they get there... CIP, VP, Silver, Gold.... blah blah blah... Watch the movie \"21\" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0478087/) and pay special attention to the main character's scholarship interview. It gives you a small small taste of what Harvard looks for EVEN IF you're just looking at Harvard admission not scholarship.

For us, I KNEW... many years ago... and I did tell DD that she should eschew the opportunities provided by the school and create her own niche outside. Some students do that. One had such a vibrant life OUTSIDE the JCs choreographing dance. He made quite a name for himself... was LAST in GEP all his life (according to him) but Harvard took him. He was THAT good in the dance scene and of course, turned in his distinctions (or pretty much).

I have known this for many years. I tried to guide my DD towards a more distinctive portfolio BUT she had other ideas. I backed off. I don't really mind non Ivy League you see so I didn't put in much effort to motivate and convince. At some point, a Mom has to respect the child's autonomy and since I didn't think she would damage her future in any way, I did not insist. Added to that, I consoled myself that learning to blend in was far more important in the long run.

I let it go.



Question B
What if Student B has less outstanding A level results, sporting achievement etc compared to Student A but is still the top student in his less competitive school. Will he still be viewed more favorably than Student A by these top universities?

I don't know the answer to this question but perhaps, you can project the answer from what I wrote above?

Hope this helps

Another great post! Curious, when did Tiger Sophia become valedictorian? Was it after Tiger Mum published her book? :evil: :rotflmao:

[Chenonceau]

Pam, you evil evil evil… But ummm… I think was after.

[jtoh]

Chenonceau:

jtoh:

Hi Chen,

Thanks for sharing. Can you help me with the following scenario.

Student A & Student B both have equally excellent A level results, sporting and leadership achievements etc. Student A is from RI/HCI. Student B from a less academically competitive school. Student A is an above average student in RI/HCI, but not the top student. Student B is a top student in this average school.

Does that mean that Student B will be offered a place in Cambridge, Oxford, Princeton, Harvard and the like over Student A? Has this actually happened, ie a student like Student B was offered a place in Oxbridge and the Ivy Leagues this year?

What if Student B has less outstanding A level results, sporting achievement etc compared to Student A but is still the top student in his less competitive school. Will he still be viewed more favorably than Student A by these top universities?

Thanks.

I need to be careful here in order not to mislead. I am no expert. I can only share my own experience. Pam is a better person to answer your question. The following is a very very tentative answer.

Question A
Student A & Student B both have equally excellent A level results, sporting and leadership achievements etc. Student A is from RI/HCI. Student B from a less academically competitive school. Student A is an above average student in RI/HCI, but not the top student. Student B is a top student in this average school.

If the 2 students are EQUAL in every respect, then yes... I think the one from the less academically inclined school will pip the other. Why? The one from RI had differential input (from the school) than the one from the less academically inclined school. The one from RI (Student A) had access to better quality, and more of it. Therefore, Student A should have achieved more than parity with Student B. This system is more fair than our PSLE where we only look at t-score even whilst we KNOW that different schools have differential input.

The only way the Ivy Leagues can assess with a view to differential INPUT is to take the pinnacle from every school. I do know a girl from NJC that got to Stanford. Pinnacle in NJC. Now... there are some who will say that Stanford isn't really the top, but that is the only example I have for this. Oh yes... I also know a young man in Harvard now from St Andrew's Junior College. He could have made RI/RJC but his mother (a school principal) chose to put him in St Andrew's instead. He too was pinnacle in SAJC. BUT this boy missed out on every PSC scholarship because PSC looks at RAW BEST and disregards differential input.

If you read this article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2154243/Teen-goes-sleeping-park-benches-Harvard-dorm-room-years-homeless.html) it may become clear that Harvard does not take in the absolute RAW BEST. They take in the BEST of whatever social/educational circumstances the student came from. Do you think that a girl who slept on park benches can have won all the prized at sport my girl won... or the research awards... or published a book? I doubt. However, the girl reached somewhere WAY beyond what one would normally expect from a HOMELESS person.

I have also heard that Harvard takes in people with somewhat poorer results too. Squash players, gymnasts etc... because Harvard wants exceptional talent in diverse areas. If you are world seeded or have a mother like Amy Chua (AND good results because Tiger Sophia was also valedictorian)... are a famous actress (with good results)... that counts too. Ivy Leagues don't want cookies. They want unique individuals. Our formula where we give opportunities to everyone in the same JC doesn't quite work because all the CVs look the same when they get there... CIP, VP, Silver, Gold.... blah blah blah... Watch the movie \"21\" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0478087/) and pay special attention to the main character's scholarship interview. It gives you a small small taste of what Harvard looks for EVEN IF you're just looking at Harvard admission not scholarship.

For us, I KNEW... many years ago... and I did tell DD that she should eschew the opportunities provided by the school and create her own niche outside. Some students do that. One had such a vibrant life OUTSIDE the JCs choreographing dance. He made quite a name for himself... was LAST in GEP all his life (according to him) but Harvard took him. He was THAT good in the dance scene and of course, turned in his distinctions (or pretty much).

I have known this for many years. I tried to guide my DD towards a more distinctive portfolio BUT she had other ideas. I backed off. I don't really mind non Ivy League you see so I didn't put in much effort to motivate and convince. At some point, a Mom has to respect the child's autonomy and since I didn't think she would damage her future in any way, I did not insist. Added to that, I consoled myself that learning to blend in was far more important in the long run.

I let it go.



Question B
What if Student B has less outstanding A level results, sporting achievement etc compared to Student A but is still the top student in his less competitive school. Will he still be viewed more favorably than Student A by these top universities?

I don't know the answer to this question but perhaps, you can project the answer from what I wrote above?

Hope this helps

Thanks so much, Chen, for sharing your insights. Much appreciated.

[atutor2001]

My kids met many ACS, MGS & SCGS kids in top overseas universities. Not sure if wealth or parent being an alumni has any impact. Interestingly these kids are also very smart though their A level results are not perfect scores.