PM Asks "What kind of people do we want to be?"

[Imami]

Oppsgal:

verykiasu2010:

the bulls are using the toilets

Topic on cows and bulls? Animal farms?

:rotflmao: they are lifting what they said from the gep thread. U go read the gep thread, you will understand.

[concern2]

Imami:

Oppsgal:

[quote=\"verykiasu2010\"]


the bulls are using the toilets

Topic on cows and bulls? Animal farms?

:rotflmao: they are lifting what they said from the gep thread. U go read the gep thread, you will understand.[/quote] Another treasure hunt?

[3Boys]

An interesting blog post by someone invited to 'lim teh' with the PM. http://www.visakanv.com/blog/2012/09/meeting-pm-lee/


I quote, \"I mean, okay fine, I’m putting my own words into his mouth here. But I really got the sense that he- and BG Tan, and the others (and I got this with Indranee Rajah too, when I met her) knows what’s going on. I think we tend to imagine that PM must be some blur guy in an ivory tower who doesn’t know how we feel. But I’m starting to suspect we’ve got it the wrong way around. PM does know what’s happening on the ground. He’s very observant and perceptive for one, and he listens carefully to people, and he has a fantastic team that surely updates him. He has a natural curiosity about him that I think is in the best interests of the country- and I’d say the same for BG Tan.

So I think the disconnect is that we don’t know what’s going on up there. We don’t know what are the trade-offs that need to be made, we don’t know what are the problems and considerations that those in government have to deal with. That’s something I think we ought to correct a little better. I think people need to understand the trade-offs that are being made.\"

An opinion that resonates significantly with mine. It's not our leaders that do not understand, its the folks on the ground.

[verykiasu2010]

3Boys:

An interesting blog post by someone invited to 'lim teh' with the PM. http://www.visakanv.com/blog/2012/09/meeting-pm-lee/


I quote, \"I mean, okay fine, I’m putting my own words into his mouth here. But I really got the sense that he- and BG Tan, and the others (and I got this with Indranee Rajah too, when I met her) knows what’s going on. I think we tend to imagine that PM must be some blur guy in an ivory tower who doesn’t know how we feel. But I’m starting to suspect we’ve got it the wrong way around. PM does know what’s happening on the ground. He’s very observant and perceptive for one, and he listens carefully to people, and he has a fantastic team that surely updates him. He has a natural curiosity about him that I think is in the best interests of the country- and I’d say the same for BG Tan.

So I think the disconnect is that we don’t know what’s going on up there. We don’t know what are the trade-offs that need to be made, we don’t know what are the problems and considerations that those in government have to deal with. That’s something I think we ought to correct a little better. I think people need to understand the trade-offs that are being made.\"

An opinion that resonates significantly with mine. It's not our leaders that do not understand, its the folks on the ground.

thanks for the above. most people don't know what they don't know and assumed there is nothing they don't know. that is the problem

[Daddy D]

verykiasu2010:

3Boys:

An interesting blog post by someone invited to 'lim teh' with the PM. http://www.visakanv.com/blog/2012/09/meeting-pm-lee/


I quote, \"I mean, okay fine, I’m putting my own words into his mouth here. But I really got the sense that he- and BG Tan, and the others (and I got this with Indranee Rajah too, when I met her) knows what’s going on. I think we tend to imagine that PM must be some blur guy in an ivory tower who doesn’t know how we feel. But I’m starting to suspect we’ve got it the wrong way around. PM does know what’s happening on the ground. He’s very observant and perceptive for one, and he listens carefully to people, and he has a fantastic team that surely updates him. He has a natural curiosity about him that I think is in the best interests of the country- and I’d say the same for BG Tan.

So I think the disconnect is that we don’t know what’s going on up there. We don’t know what are the trade-offs that need to be made, we don’t know what are the problems and considerations that those in government have to deal with. That’s something I think we ought to correct a little better. I think people need to understand the trade-offs that are being made.\"

An opinion that resonates significantly with mine. It's not our leaders that do not understand, its the folks on the ground.

thanks for the above. most people don't know what they don't know and assumed there is nothing they don't know. that is the problem

I think it applies to ALL lor... To ppl above-ground, on the ground, and underground... :boogie:

[pirate]

And some people don’t want to know…

[Vickychen89]

concern2:

pirate:

[quote=\"concern2\"]Yes, all costs go up except salary. Back to square one.


Everyone says they don't have to do those work, so in the end, get FW, Still back to square one leh.

Can we get the cows to come home?

What you talking about? The salary of the blue collar workers go up.

There is no such thing as jobs nobody wants to do. There are only jobs nobody wants to do at $x salary. I seriously doubt no SC will want to be bus drivers at $3,500 a month or even garbage collectors if the basic salary is $4,000 a month. Who wants to do those jobs at a basic pay of less than $1,500 a month if they can help it when one can earn more sitting all day in an aircon office? Would you?

The only reason why we could get away with obscenely low pay for these kinds of jobs is because we import FWs. I can also say that not enough SCs want to work in IT etc cheap. So import FTs lah. Why the complaint about the latter?

What the govt should do is to tweak the foreign worker ratio so that only SCs with a basic salary of $2,000 a month or more counts towards the ratio. Why should businesses be allowed to import FWs/FTs unless they show that they also provide good jobs to SCs?

And no, your apartment cost or office rent will not go up. Land costs will just drop because developers will just factor in higher construction cost when bidding for the land.

[/quote] :idea: Hi, I agree with you that apartment cost or office rent will not go up and land costs will just drop because developers will just factor in higher construction cost when bidding for the land. So all enterprises should select the best leasing office provider in the http://www.regus.com.sg/products/offices/business-centres.aspx. We should find http://www.regus.com.sg/products/offices/office-space-to-rent.aspx as soon as possible.

[zarahsmom]

pirate:

WeiHan:

Ok...xenophobia is bad...


But what if a person (and family) survival is threaten by the badly planned immigration policy? Is it wrong for him to vent his anger at the \"foreigner\" that he perceived to have invaded his livelihood.

As far as I can tell, the most shrill xenophobic voices online do not come from people whose \"survival is threaten by the badly planned immigration policy.\" The ones most impacted are the blue collar workers like bus drivers, nurses, cleaners, waiters etc. I don't see people clamouring for the government to clamp down on blue collar foreign workers.

On the contrary, the xenophobic voices come primarily from those in areas like IT, banking and admin - white collar workers in aircon offices. I have always been of the view that most of these office jobs can be outsourced overseas with a good corporate broadband link, and now with cloud computing...

So, guess what? Unless your job involves dealing directly with customers in Singapore (eg. private bankers, doctors, waiters) or physical work that must be done in Singapore (eg. bus drivers, cleaners, garbage collectors) or both (eg. nurses), the foreigner will threaten your survival, whether he is working in Singapore, Mumbai, Shanghai, Manila or JB. Welcome to the 21st century. Adapt and evolve or die.

As for why our government keep depressing blue collar wages by importing blue collar workers to do work that must be physically done in Singapore, I have no idea.

Pirate
I believe this is your best post so far. By the way I am a PR from the Philippines been living and working here since Year2000, so yeah 12 years already, but was only a PR for 7 years.

To all the SCs in this thread:

I came from an IT background, went through 2 rounds of redundancy along with my beloved SG Citizen colleagues. Why? because our jobs were outsourced...on my first round of redundancy, I was with a 2 month old daughter .. but I summoned all my strength to reinvent my career even with less pay (create a new role/career so that it will be considered a niche that wont be easily replaced.. so I became a Technical Trainer and subsequently Training Manager.. (to be promoted as a Training Manager was not done with what most people think that I have graces from the \"above\".. I worked for it with my blood and tears.. even working 24 hours for 2 consecutive days, so that I can learn the technology and train in the next few days. I rolled my sleeves, fought really hard for the survival of my family ==> and this was done not to step on SC's toes.. I was just working my ass off that's all..

Was it all rosy for me? I also have a lot of local friends.. whom I treasure. But there were also locals who snarled insults at me.. \"what a Filipino trainer? how can she train us her accent so thick meh?\".. and you know what? the more I hear those insults, the more I tried to integrate myself with them, until I also learn Singlish and I am saying that with a warm heart.. I love switching to Singlish when having lunch with my khakis/buddies..even some locals mistaken me for a local.. once I am so effective in Singlish.. I never had those insults ever again from my trainees.. so yeah... if you are in Rome do what the Romans do.

12 years hence.. I still feel the indifference towards \"foreigners\" like me, in every workplace there would be at least 1 local who would always either ignore me or make it really obvious that am not \"1 of them\", either by speaking in Chinese while we are all having lunch, and she/he will just address everyone else except me. So, I just let her do what she wants to do.. and I will just keep my own corner. She would also try not to work in any projects wherein I would be part of the team. Who in the end suffers? She is the one who suffers-- she alienates herself and never get to the juicier projects.. comes promotion time.. who would be crying over spilled milk?

I work just as hard, in fact even harder than her.. she would leave the office at 5pm, while I stay until 8pm or 10pm..

never in my working life--- that Ive had a Filipino boss, its either an ang mo or another local---so you cant say that I get favours because the boss is of the same race.. no.

in my current role, the boss is a Singaporean, as part of our role, we have to invite top Graduates from top Universities and grad schools in Singapore...for the past 3 years at least 98% of the top grads from top uni's are non-locals.. so I told my boss...why cant we get more locals?

she said: the rule is top 10% of grad class... it happens that top 10% of grad class are mostly foreigners..

then I said: can we influence the updating of the policy such that let us say, we were asked to get 100 graduates this year..
- we make sure to at least get 20 locals as a priority ==> and of course these locals should also be at the top 10% amongst the locals

well to this she (the Singaporean) boss, said \" hard to change rules\"

now you tell me, do we blame the foreigners? when all they have to be is to be top 10% of their class.. they didnt come to study in Singapore to step on locals.. they just wanted to be the best that they can be..


so what kind of people do I want Singaporeans to be? well also the best that a Singaporean can be, the best that a human being can be...

If your survival is threatened, just like I did many times (after going 2 redundancies), reinvent yourself, if your current best is not enough, maybe you need to work at being best on another field..

also note that even if I also suffered insults from a Singaporean, I just individualised it and not generalise... regardless of race there are always people who are xenophobic..regardless of race there would be people who will fight for survival though not necessarily fighting with you or taking food from your plate in order to feed herself and her family..

we are no freeloaders.. in almost all company I worked for, I am always the one leaving the office last.. (no I dont switch off the lights-- normally lights are automatically switched off when nobody is moving around the office)..

in much the same way, I guess the blatant \"labelling\" and \"insulting\" that we Foreigners receive will also stop if we just stop moving around.. but who would take the jobs in the office that nobody wants?? Oh yeah, even in my field, there are tasks that locals/foreigners dont want, everyone wants to be a manager, everyone wants to work for a strategic initiative as it gets higher visibility.. but who would capture the metrics? who would manipulate the metrics so it looks palatable and easy to understand for the \"C\" officers... who would be the one counting \"heads\" and putting stamps on envelopes, or even print and bind reams of training materials at 10pm (when the printers are closed)..?(my mother called me several times in the night, while over hearing my once baby daughter crying 'Why are you doing the printing? did you graduate from Engineering degree just to print ? well, I said these are some of the things one should do as we are in a foreign country)

you say we get to do less work right? its only because most people left at 6pm already, while I still work my ass off until 10pm.. or even work from home early in the morning (4am), to catch the Global Project Manager who is based in the US...

most locals would not take a job like that as its very family unfriendly.. and yes I have sacrificed family life to take on tasks that nobody in our field wants.. and now Ive learned too.. that its not worth it to lose your family chasing after rats..

in that case Dora1 and I have a common ground. Its not afterall about me being a PR and her being an SC.. but its the nature of things in the environment we live in.. why be so indiferrent to people of another race.. its the policy that needs to change.. its also about our overall attitude about life that needs to change..

I also learned that Id rather teach my child how to use Henna to color my mother's hair.. as its safer.. and more practical.. so when she grows up, she knows that she can actually color her own hair, instead of relying on salons to do it for her.. that there are safer alternatives to cosmetics..

I also learned that we can grow our own lettuce in a 2x2 feet box of soil, instead of buying commercially grown lettuce irradiated and sprayed with pesticides (and these choices were not made to make farmers unemployed-- its just making better and healthier choices for my family)...oh I also buy from local organic farmers (most of which used to be working on airconditioned offices, and later decided they could be of better service to humanity by growing food on healthy soil without pesticides-- and you know what I see them as glamorous-- hats off to them).. I hope I could follow their footsteps.

just like Dora1, I learned its much better to leave office at 5pm on the dot, and read stories to my daughter..until she sleeps, then I get more time for myself to learn new things (such as making DIY Vitamin C serum?)

now everyone in the office is so happy, cause am not making them chase rats so hard.. no more rats in the office after 6pm (fervently hoping that no one sees that as having less work)..

you know there was even a time when a local, reprimanded me for doing a task (its actually doing Out of Band testing-- its like just calling a modem at a client's building to test if its working, so when there is an outage in the major lines.. am sure I can call in remotely to this modem to troubleshoot)..

this local said.. don't do that.. if you start doing that, the boss will also assume that all of us should do it too.. (its like being proactive makes them do more work)...this happened in year 2001, I wasnt able to sleep for days.. i was wondering why I get that kind of treatment for doing something good...

apparently, that is the culture here..dont put your head too high, dont put it too low.. dont be visible.. just be like the majority so everyone have the same amount of work..and keep the status quo

so I did.. and now am just like everyone else.. and happier for it.. as the ROI is much better.. though I earn less.. I am far more rich in other experiences.. I would not blame the other girl for prioritising her career over her family though.. she earns her reward =PROMOTION, I earn mine = the affection of my child.

did I suffer injustices? oh you bet I did.. how about being sacked for being pregnant and bearing a child? did I blame the Aussie race, just because the boss who sacked me happened to be Aussue? no, a single act of an individual or even a certain group of individuals does not represent the majority.

do we have to make very hard decisions between family and career? how about your mother being diagnosed with breast cancer in a foreign land? How about your mother being in a surgery room, with just you outside the room waiting for her... how about taking care of her alone in the ward.. as you dont have other relatives in town?

you would think foreigners like us all have it easy.. and that we are taking advantage of your resources.. when all along we are just fellow human beings fighting for our own survival... without the ill intent of taking what is already yours.. how can I steal the ground you are stepping on?

uh-oh no am not crying.. just trying to prove ta point.. :hugs:

[zarahsmom]

by the way, I also always check myself whether I am exhibiting/manifesting xenophobic tendencies…


according to Wikipedia

Xenophobia is a dislike or fear of people from other countries or of that which is foreign or strange. Some definitions suggest xenophobia as arising from irrationality or unreason.[1] [2] It comes from the Greek words ξένος (xenos), meaning "stranger," "foreigner," and φόβος (phobos), meaning "fear."[3]

Xenophobia can manifest itself in many ways involving the relations and perceptions of an ingroup towards an outgroup, including a fear of losing identity, suspicion of its activities, aggression, and desire to eliminate its presence to secure a presumed purity.[4] Xenophobia can also be exhibited in the form of an "uncritical exaltation of another culture" in which a culture is ascribed "an unreal, stereotyped and exotic quality".[5] Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action urges all governments to take immdiate measure and to develop strong policies to prevent and combat all forms and minifestations of racism, xenophobia or related intolerance, where necessary by enactment of appropriate legislation including penal measure.[6]

A xenophobic person has to genuinely think or believe at some level that the target is in fact a foreigner. This arguably separates xenophobia from ordinary prejudice. In various contexts, the terms "xenophobia" and "racism" seem to be used interchangeably, though they can have wholly different meanings (xenophobia can be based on various aspects, racism being based solely on ethnicity, and ancestry). Xenophobia can also be directed simply to anyone outside a culture. Basically, a completely biased opinion regarding foreign matters.

[zarahsmom]

How to become xenophobic?


The following are ways one would develop a general, and more often a specific type of Xenophobia:

■bad emotional experience with other groups or specific alien populist group.
■allegedly rational, or, analytical reasons for the revulsion.
■Classical conditioning, that is when someone is conditioned to having a fear or repulse from aliens generally, or, from specific group. ways to instill it would be Dehumanization, mostly by propaganda, for example: a video containing group members shown distorted, erroneous, and in proportional phases of horror sounding.
■imitating others, mainly these that are close to the individual, or, in many cases, societal norms of a nation.

I hope am not being xenophobic, by trying to learn Singlish and trying to be like the majority (dont put head too high or too low- just keep the status quo) in order to integrate... Maybe I also feel threatened for my family's security here in Singapore.. next year my daughter is entering Primary 1.. I worry for her.. what if she is bullied for being the only Filipino girl in class? perhaps this is the reason why I also try to mix in.. perhaps am xenophobic too?? :?