Population woes

[mamago]

pirate:

Dora1:

There was some population statistics published a couple of months back. SCs and foreigners are now 60:40. This was official gov stats, pls go and look it up. The SCs include retirees and kids. So if just compare the actual workforce, I think my estimation of 50:50 is not too far off. And this marches my personal experience as well.

Aiyah, no need to rely on guesswork lah.

Department of Statistics (mid-year estimates):

Total population: 5,312,400
Singapore citizens: 3,285,100
PRs: 533,100

(PRs also include spouses of SCs, and children and spouses of PRs)

Ministry of Manpower statistics (Jun 2012):

Employment pass: 174,700
S pass: 128,100
Work permit (excluding FDWs and construction): 445,200
WP (FDW): 208,400
WP (construction): 277,600
Total foreign workforce: 1,234,000
Total employment level: 3,287,400

Voilá! This is what I am proud of, the efficiency of Singaporean!
(Well, I assumed you are one.)

*讚不絕口*

[Dora1]

Pirate


Thanks for digging out the data. This was what I read. Total population: 5,312,400
Singapore citizens: 3,285,100. So this makes SC and Foreigners (incl PR) abt 60:40 isn’t it?
The total foreign workforce at the bottom does not account for PRs. PRs have non-working spouses and children, so does SCs. And SCs have more non-working people in the number in fact, e.g. retirees, disabled etc. Therefore, 50:50 in the actual work force is definitely not a too far estimation. I would agree that PRs 10 years ago are not considered foreigners. But the new PRs definitely cannot be considered locals. A few years ago, we had a group of new PRs at our workplace that laughed and said that the Singapore PR is cheaper than toilet paper, anybody can get. And they were here for only 3 months, and gotten their PR.
Anyway, this will probably be my last post here. Initially I thought KS parents are a matured and sensible lot who are open to different ideas - that’s what a forum is about. We don’t have to agree with one another, but to openly laugh at others suggestion is not what I expected,esp when it is due to their own ignorance. The FW/FT suggestion that I gave is being implemented in some other countries. They have a welcome FT policy as well. but at the same time, they have mechanism in place to protect their own people, to ensure that only real talents that are not available in their countries are accepted. As for implementation, why does it need to be a pre-approval mechanism? Just state the law there, with conditions to meet. That is enough to send a strong message that we only want talents that SG don’t have, not any Tom, dick or Harry. Enforcement can be via audit, may not be 100% full proof, but it will definitely make a lot of employers stop and think, and try to employ SCs if all else are equal, which is not happening now.
so definitely don’t need 10 brains behind a cleaner.
And the HDB problem, data is for all to see, a lot of property experts have written about it.
My intention to share is that there is a serious policy lapse out there. You may not have experienced it, so good for you. And for your sake, I dont wish for it to happen to you. But don’t put down and ridicule SCs who are in pain everyday due to it. ANd it is definitely not because of our capabilities. We were displaced soley for the reasons of different nationality. There are a lot of cultures in this world that place great emphasis on helping their own kind 1st, while SCs most practice meritocracy. Go and read up sociology articles if you’re interested. Don’t just bury your head in the soil and say that everyone practices meritocracy. Now who is having the NIMBY attitude? All I’m trying to offer are alternative solutions to address this problem. Mine may not be the best solution, I don’t have the whole gov resources behind me to help in the policy making. What I can say is that if we continue like we are now, and just having knee jerk policy tweaking, I don’t think it will adress the root cause, and instead caused a lot of pain to the others (e.g. the SMEs now).
I will stop posting in this thread. I have said enough. I don’t need anyone of you to believe me. Ridicule all the ideas for all you want. But I sincerely you guys can also stop and think what will happen to SG if what I said even have some truth in it?

[lim72]

mamago:

Dora1:

I am saying similar policies, can't the million dollar ministers and quarter million senior servants tweak it to SG context? Special skill could be chef, carpenter, plumber, construction builders? And for jobs like cleaners, if they advertised for x number of weeks with a pay higher than the min wage, then they allowed to hire FWs if no SCs respond. There are countries with similar policies. Bottom line is, look at what Singaporeans want and what the businesses need.

How to execute that? Will all employers be honest? How much manpower have to deploy just to execute what you proposed?

Do you know that many countries are already doing this for years. Stop finding excuses for them. We are a small country if you forget. Its determination that.counts.

[lim72]

mamago:

There will never be a best solution, we are not living in the shangri- la land... But this so far work the best, thus we have affordable roofs, we have cheap meals, we have efficient and affordable transports, we have highly educated off springs... Our economy grow, our jobless rate is one of the lowest...


If no FT/FW, many many many local SME will move to Malaysia, Indonesia, Myanmar... or fold!

没这么大的头就不要带那么大的帽子。 What makes them think that they can survive in other corrupted countries when they can't even survive in Spore.

[lim72]

mamago:

xfx:

这是平民与老百姓的心声。 我们的苦，高尚的人是不会理解地。

自己的刀不够利, 却因此要求政府规定全人民不能用刀?

有时间应该用来思考如何磨利自己的刀，而不是禁止别人用！

@xfx
因为这些高尚的人刚来不久, 我们就大人有大量吧, 不和她计较。不要浪费力气对牛弹钢琴! 不写了。

[limlim]

pirate:

limlim:

This thing is too complexed to be covered adequately with a few examples.


Surely some imported labor is necessary. But the big issue is too much, unnecessary imports.

Surely then it is too complex to be dealt with by a sweeping \"keep the FWs, send home the FTs\"?

Correct. That's why, I never denied that some FTs are essential.

The point I'm driving at is.. it seems the control is too lax now.

There are unnecessary ones, and too many, that is the issue.

The issue is not the pure existence or presence of FTs, but the number and rate of growth, and the justification for the large number. We do have to recognize the need for FT when it is necessary. From what I observe, Not every occurrence is necessary, that's what I'm trying to say.

[limlim]

pirate:

limlim:

[quote=\"3Boys\"]

Tightening a screw ain't engineering, it's called a household chore.

Depends on whether that screw is part of a $10 ikea chair or $1mil equipment in a class 100 cleanroom.

But designing the $1mil equipment (and the cleanroom) can be done anywhere else in the world.[/quote]That is Already the case now. Locally build, and troubleshoot. But design came from HQ overseas.

[limlim]

pirate:

limlim:

If you read the HWZ thread on construction sector.. you get more information.

Without supply of cheap labor, companies are forced to improve productivity, which is only good in the long term. Such as investing in equipments etc..

But that is actually reducing the FWs, not the PMET FTs.

That is one point.

So, there is 2 points that I'm raising up.

one is, excessive FT may not be as necessary as what 154 is pushing at.

two, SMEs should strive to be efficient to stay in the game, or perish.

I feel mostly the service sector justify FTs and tons of FW.. as they are labor intensive and difficult to rely on technology. Engineering and construction maybe not so much.

[limlim]

pirate:

No, this is not what they have. The policy they have is that employers who want to employ foreigners must show that the foreigner possess special skill. What constitutes 'special skill' varies with economic needs. It means tighter FW control and looser FT control, which is the complete opposite of what you are advocating.

The control is too lax now. And there is no adequate checks to ensure each \"qualification\" is genuine.

There is already too many cases of fraud. Fake certificates etc.. Employer collect cash back from agents, employers collect cash back from employees etc etc....

[limlim]

pirate:

Dora1:

I am saying similar policies, can't the million dollar ministers and quarter million senior servants tweak it to SG context? Special skill could be chef, carpenter, plumber, construction builders? And for jobs like cleaners, if they advertised for x number of weeks with a pay higher than the min wage, then they allowed to hire FWs if no SCs respond. There are countries with similar policies. Bottom line is, look at what Singaporeans want and what the businesses need.

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