Population woes
-
3Boys:
Fraud of course needs to be dealt with. If you have a slam dunk case that MOM does not prosecute, then go to the press, or TRE or TOC by all means to publicise.
Show the statistics before you repeatedly use words like naive and narrow..limlim:
[quote=\"3Boys\"]
What you are saying is that damn the companies, just make sure that Singaporeans stay employed, completely forgetting that it is the companies that employ Singaporeans. When they go, so how many Singaporeans lose their high value employment, not just in these companies but in related industries.
How many jobs are created? HOW MANY goes to citizens?
And, you failed to address the point on fraud.
Like I said, there have to be a proper balance.
Now the balance seems to be off. Too much, too many.
The number of Singaporean employees is not the only measure of a company's value. I know to your mind that is the only criteria, but you have ignored everything else I have posted.
I don't have to post statistics, I do not know how many Singaporeans are employed but such companies. To me, that is not the main criteria of a company's value. The fact is connectivity and cross talk is vital in complex industries. Singapore wants to set up an aerospace industry, it brings in big players like Rolls-Royce, Bell Helicopters. How many Singaporeans know or are trained to design and build jet engines or rotor blades? In the initial set up, and possibly for a while after, will not most of the top and mid-level techs and engineers be from overseas? By your criteria, these companies do not add value to our economy and should be slapped with restrictive hiring laws?
Then to support those large principal companies, I know of a small coatings company that was set up to produce sophisticated coatings for turbine blades that allow them to run at high temperatures. A small set up with less than 10 employees, mostly from overseas to begin with. You will say this company adds no value? If we chase them away, will RR and Bell not say, \"Hmmm, too tough for me to do business, no support system.\" Then what?
In your view, a high value industry like aerospace has no value to Singapore because the don't have a majority of Singaporeans hired?
I know what you will say, they are here because of other factors, they will stay even if we force a restrictive hiring practice on them. Show me that there is any merit in your proposal. You want to gamble on them up and leaving, tell them good riddance?[/quote]You quote some examples like aerospace.. and it seems justified.. however, in the first place, are the FTs in these industries being frown upon? These expatiates are probably send there by their HQ, and not sourced locally. Please don't use these pple as examples.. they are not the reason for the discontent against the FT policy.
Can you explain the presence of excessive large number of pinoy and india and PRCs? What jobs are they doing that cannot be fulfilled by locals? What jobs are they doing that there is not enough locals to do??
Again and again, I have said, the problem is not the existence of the FT policy, but the execution.
You keep on explain why FTs are need but failed to see the finer point of the deficiency of the system that needs to be fixed.
I do not want to debate again on why we need FTs.. Like I said earlier, there are cases where they are needed, I didn't dispute that.
But, there are many cases where they are not \"necessary\".
You say FT helps to protect jobs for locals.. But did you realize that there are cases of locals are being REPLACED by FTs and made jobless? oh.. are you going to say these local are not competitive enough so they deserve to be replaced? If locals are slowly being replaced, then, you created 50 jobs for FTs, 5 jobs for locals, and 25 locals lose their jobs.. makes sense? of course these are figures puck from the air.. you don't have statistics.. so do I. -
limlim:
The jobs can be fulfilled by locals.. but the fact is that these jobs are shunned by locals. The big corporations have no problem attracting local talents, but it's the SMEs that will be in dire straits in there aren't any of these FTs to fill the jobs.If these SMEs fail or move out of Singapore, how is our economy going to sustain itself? The fact is 99% of all enterprises in Singapore are SMEs. We probably have to talk to an SME employer to fully appreciate the problems they face.
Can you explain the presence of excessive large number of pinoy and india and PRCs? What jobs are they doing that cannot be fulfilled by locals? What jobs are they doing that there is not enough locals to do??
Even local grads w/o any working experience are picky about the kind of jobs they take up.
I think the solution to this FT problem will be when there's a bigger problem-a recession.(Not that I'm hoping for this) Only then will locals be less picky. As it is now, our unemployment rate is still very low, so I do not think this FT problem is a very big one. Also as our govt has heard our voices and reduced the influx of FT, this dissent seems abit unjustifiable.
just my couple of cents.. -
For me due to what I have seen happening to DH & friends around me, I tend to think that the competition is not limited to the FTs that are brought into Singapore. Of late, I realise that my go to list of makan and kopi kakis have shrunk. Quite a few of them have been posted overseas. China, Dubai, US, UK, everywhere. DH himself was given a severance package earlier this year as his company relocated their Apac HQ to China and we chose not to relocate with them. He is still looking for a job now. Because of this move of the HQ, a lot of his colleagues either have to move with the company or look for another job. Of those who are given a severance package, the ones who are still looking for jobs are mostly in the mid to upper management. Most of the other staff have already found a job.
Do we feel that his job is being taken over by FTs imported into Singapore? Not really. Yes, they do pose some competition but if we really look at what DH is personally experiencing and along with his peers, their competition is more than that. Before this recent role, DH was in another huge MNC. When he left, his position was not replaced in Singapore but by someone in Australia, based out of Australia. He has since had a few opportunities, quite a few he had to turn down as they require him to be based out of other countries. And the few that he can be based in Singapore, he is competing with people from all over asia and there is no need for them to come to Singapore as they can do their jobs in whatever country they are in now. And chances are whichever country the selected candidate is base out of, his/her downline will be hired mainly in that country.
I can see what 3boys and pirate is saying. If Singapore does not continue to be competitive, more people will be out of jobs as there will be no opportunities. Right now, there are opportunities, though competition is keen. Between a choice of being able to fight for an opportunity and having none at all, Iād rather choose the former. However, I recognise that eventually, we may have to really look at being global citizens and go where the job opportunity is. -
Funz:
Well, I can only agree with you 100%. And those with the ability to move will move, what of those in the middle-lower skill set then? Leave them with a hollowed-out economy?For me due to what I have seen happening to DH & friends around me, I tend to think that the competition is not limited to the FTs that are brought into Singapore. Of late, I realise that my go to list of makan and kopi kakis have shrunk. Quite a few of them have been posted overseas. China, Dubai, US, UK, everywhere. DH himself was given a severance package earlier this year as his company relocated their Apac HQ to China and we chose not to relocate with them. He is still looking for a job now. Because of this move of the HQ, a lot of his colleagues either have to move with the company or look for another job. Of those who are given a severance package, the ones who are still looking for jobs are mostly in the mid to upper management. Most of the other staff have already found a job.
Do we feel that his job is being taken over by FTs imported into Singapore? Not really. Yes, they do pose some competition but if we really look at what DH is personally experiencing and along with his peers, their competition is more than that. Before this recent role, DH was in another huge MNC. When he left, his position was not replaced in Singapore but by someone in Australia, based out of Australia. He has since had a few opportunities, quite a few he had to turn down as they require him to be based out of other countries. And the few that he can be based in Singapore, he is competing with people from all over asia and there is no need for them to come to Singapore as they can do their jobs in whatever country they are in now. And chances are whichever country the selected candidate is base out of, his/her downline will be hired mainly in that country.
I can see what 3boys and pirate is saying. If Singapore does not continue to be competitive, more people will be out of jobs as there will be no opportunities. Right now, there are opportunities, though competition is keen. Between a choice of being able to fight for an opportunity and having none at all, I'd rather choose the former. However, I recognise that eventually, we may have to really look at being global citizens and go where the job opportunity is. -
lim72:
You cannot. Neither can your company. That is the whole point. So, instead of fighting that, you get him to be part of your team.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19906139
Quote: \"I could get an engineering graduate from top universities in China for a quarter, or a third of the pay that I would pay for a Singaporean.\" \"And he would be willing to work six day a week 10hours a day, how do you fight with that?\" -
3Boys:
Exactly, I am constantly fighting a rear-guard to defend our business in Singapore to the head-honchos in corporate, and we can only do our business drawing on a mix of Singaporean core partnered with top foreign talent to keep it going.zarahsmom:
[quote=\"3Boys\"]Here is an article for context --> http://www.npr.org/2011/06/09/137081954/union-workers-cry-foul-over-new-s-c-boeing-plant
Not only are countries fighting each other for industry, even states within the US fight each other for corporations. The (more) rigid labour conditions in Washington State drove Boeing to set up a plant in South Carolina. Boeing has strong historical links to Seattle, but if labour gets too tough, off they go. It's that simple.
totally agree with this.. in all of the companies I worked for, I have to constantly \"defend\" in my own way the talent pool in Singapore (against talent pools in China and India)... if I can prove that the competencies/skills in Singapore is higher (and thus worth the higher premium).. then we dont have to outsource IT helpdesks/network teams to India/China service providers)..
but everyone seems to be too busy to upskill or attend productivity programmes.. so really.. how to defend Singapore if we are all too focused on racial differences (who is getting more of what?)...
But people seem very blase about that. Put up the barriers they say, and those that live, live, those that die, die.
As if we can be so choosy, and to what purpose? They really feel it would result in a better outcome for the Singaporean PMET?[/quote]
hi yah, this is the one that I believe Singapore talents (locals/foreigners) alike, have to focus on.. how can we keep Singapore as an interesting business proposition for companies to move back their HQ to Singapore or even just to keep their HQ in Singapore.. a nation divided is a nation headed for ruin.. just my few cents worth... -
Is the government going to give a choice to the citizens?
i.e. More people prefer a less stressful lifestyle but settle with lesser value added jobs. Never mind we lose higher value jobs to Shanghai. -
We have to be careful of what we ask for, every policy will cut both ways and some will benefit while others will be disadvantaged. Do not think we will be better off if the MNCs decide to pull out of Singapore because of concerns over FT bashing. For some, this is not an issue as they have transferable skills that are valued globally and more so in the emerging markets. For others, they have not have much options.
-
WeiHan:
uh-oh i also echo the previous posters comment, be careful what you wish for.. though a lot of people prefer work-life balance over more high falutting jobs, some still prefer the high falutting jobs,Is the government going to give a choice to the citizens?
i.e. More people prefer a less stressful lifestyle but settle with lesser value added jobs. Never mind we lose higher value jobs to Shanghai.
i guess what I am trying to say is for each individual to make up their minds.. if you prefer work-life balance, then be prepared to lose the high falutting jobs to foreigners in your shore.. or workers off-shore..
also have to be cognizant that nations like India are now also facing the social issues you faced decades ago... losing focus on family..and getting too urbanised and stressed...and maybe a few more decades in the future India would also be a favorable place for foreign talents (though as of today, I know most of the regional workers in Singapore who were given short-term assignments in India-- really didnt find it comfortable to settle in India, specially those with kids).. they say it is easier to be a foreigner in Singapore, than become a foreigner in say India, Chine or Philippines (my home country).. so I guess Singapore and Hong Kong, will continue to be an attractive place for foreign workers...
on the other side of the coin Australia and Canada government promoted family first policies.. (Australia offices are closed by 4pm, shopping malls closed by 5 pm)...and you already know what happened to most global companies operating in Australia, they have moved to Singapore.. if Singapore is ready for that transition.. then.. I guess we all just have to be ready for the changes.. and be happy with what ever comes.. -
WeiHan:
Right, lets all be Greece......Is the government going to give a choice to the citizens?
i.e. More people prefer a less stressful lifestyle but settle with lesser value added jobs. Never mind we lose higher value jobs to Shanghai.
This is the most preposterous post in this thread yet. Guess what happens to the young unemployed persons in low-growth countries?
Hint: It involves buying a plane ticket. I'm sure more people prefer that.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better š
Register Login