Bell Curve - To remove or not to remove?
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SAHM_TAN:
The difference is nowadays, the children are competing not on their own but with the resources from tuition centers and tutors and parental guidance making the playing field extremely uneven. Especially in the light of the type of testing from MOE that require you to master exam taking techniques and out of syllabus content. Add that to DSA preparatory workshops and GEP preparation.
Now it's a bit different than 30 yrs ago. Whether it's a good change or not, I don't know yet.
I do agree that it's more difficult to catch-up.
It does not take much to make a judgement. -
My kid is only in P1 going to P2.
I know tuition do give an edge for kids whose family can afford it. It's still a choice that parents make.
My kid has tuition for maths but not languages so I manage my expectation. Of course there are parents who will say that becos I'm SAHM, so my kids have an edge too. But hor, I'm not capable like other SAHMs who helped their kids to score 250 and above :evil:
My kid has tuition for maths and no tuition for the languages, based on her results, I think the school is still doing an ok job, no complain. As for testing out of content, so far, it's within syllabus. She's a normal kid.
I might change my tune when she's in P3 or I might not. I can't really say now.
I do agree the playing field is not level. All I request is that all teachers teach kids like they don't have tuition. I'm fine if the school set 1 to 3 questions to differentiate the clever ones, by nature or nurture. But teachers need to do their jobs to teach. So far, I find the school that dd1 is in is helping the kids. Maybe it's becos my dd1 does not have tuition for the languages so I can see the efforts of her Eng and Chi teacher.
I seems to have gone off-topic :oops:
Taking out the bell-curve will not solve the uneven playing field. -
Agree with SAHM-Tan and AWSP.
When I was temporarily putting up at a friend’s place which was a residential area for lower income group. Kids were studying outdoor. There were no void decks as there were houses on the ground floor. Parents were out working. I wonder if they will know what DSA, IP, IB are about. Do they have the information? These kids are dependent solely on their teachers. No matter what is said, only the rich will have access to the extra help and extra resources. -
It’s too sweeping to say that "only the rich will have access to the extra help and extra resources". You don’t have to be rich to be resourceful. I don’t think all the kiasu parents on this forum are rich, but they are all keen to acquire knowledge to help their kids make the best of their abilities.
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I think trs are important. A good tr will make sure tt the kids are adequately prepared for psle. A good tr will ensure tt the dsa process is made known to the students, ESP those with the potential to get CO from the various schools.
I do not believe that all schools are equally good but I sincerely believe that all schools have some good teachers. Good trs will make the battlefield more even.
We can do our part too, especially the sahm. When we pick or send our kids to school, we can make friendly conversation with other parents and share what we know with them. Mathizzfun and tian zhu have been providing free solutions and helping out in all the maths threads for at least 2 years or more. I really salute and thank them for their time and patience in helping out in these threads. :thankyou:
Perhaps, we need more good trs and smaller class size to start with, so that, all pupils are placed more fairly on the bell curve. -
Well said.
At home, parents play a big part. In school the teachers should too. -
AWSP:
The Bell Curve's evil is in the distortion in weighting. Mother Tongue becomes the heaviest weighted apparently because of the 'profile' of the cohort. A very apparent symptom from past years observation is that is that the top scorers have typically very strong command of second language. You do not see top scorers who demonstrate strong maths or science or english skills over the rest of the subjects. You may also try to guess the profile of last years top scorers which coincidentally has a \"significant\" number of Malay students. The distribution in Mother tongue is most logically not a bell curve but a hump shaped curve or a very left skewed distribution. A skewed distribution will create a lot of distortion. I think this part is totally unforeseen by the folks in MOE and they are not willing to admit the problem.
Based on immigration trend, I would place a bet that this years top 10 scorers will have a good representation by Tamil students. (Another skewing effect).
To the more statistically trained people, I am saying that 3rd moment effect is quite logically present given our children's profile in mother tongue. The disortionary effect is worse and more drastic than the 2nd moment effect(standard deviation).
The pressure in PSLE is not due to T-score but the competitive entry into the top IP school with limited placing. It doesnt matter which way you design your scoring as long as demand exceed supply by a huge mile.
my gal used to be top 6 in her std even though her MT was not very strong. and for psle she was the 15 th top in her sch and students who took Malay as MT got better T-score than her even though in sch exams these students used to be 20+ in std. I don't understand how and why. I assume it's because for MT as there are several sub-populations and the mean score and std deviation differ, this has an advantage for 1 or 2 sub- population over the rest. as for MT shouldn't MOE use raw score? -
lotus123:
by the way my gal's MT is Tamil . also I have noticed that even last year's top 2 Indian students took Malay has 2nd Lang and not Tamil. even several years ago in 2005 or 2006 I can't remember the Indian gal from raffles pri took Malay as 2nd Lang and not Tamil. even my daughter's classmate in the top class as my gal but with very strong command of Tamil Lang didn't get a very high T-score for psle . so I think from all these I can deduce that Students with very good command of Malay language and in the top class of a sch will emerge as that sch's psle top scorer or get a relatively higher T-score than her peers even though they may hav very similar raw scores. maybe it has to do with the mean score and std deviation. also I have been told by Tamil teachers they have been told to mark Tamil papers very strictly ever since they modified psle Tamil curriculum a few years ago. this poses an added disadvantage to Tamil students like my gal whose command of Tamil Lang is not very good as my hubby is not Tamil and we speak English at home. also during my daughter's time in primary school she was not allowed to take Malay or other languages for MT unless it's mother tongue. but now MOE has relaxed this rule and students can take any MT langs.AWSP:
The Bell Curve's evil is in the distortion in weighting. Mother Tongue becomes the heaviest weighted apparently because of the 'profile' of the cohort. A very apparent symptom from past years observation is that is that the top scorers have typically very strong command of second language. You do not see top scorers who demonstrate strong maths or science or english skills over the rest of the subjects. You may also try to guess the profile of last years top scorers which coincidentally has a \"significant\" number of Malay students. The distribution in Mother tongue is most logically not a bell curve but a hump shaped curve or a very left skewed distribution. A skewed distribution will create a lot of distortion. I think this part is totally unforeseen by the folks in MOE and they are not willing to admit the problem.
Based on immigration trend, I would place a bet that this years top 10 scorers will have a good representation by Tamil students. (Another skewing effect).
To the more statistically trained people, I am saying that 3rd moment effect is quite logically present given our children's profile in mother tongue. The disortionary effect is worse and more drastic than the 2nd moment effect(standard deviation).
The pressure in PSLE is not due to T-score but the competitive entry into the top IP school with limited placing. It doesnt matter which way you design your scoring as long as demand exceed supply by a huge mile.
my gal used to be top 6 in her std even though her MT was not very strong. and for psle she was the 15 th top in her sch and students who took Malay as MT got better T-score than her even though in sch exams these students used to be 20+ in std. I don't understand how and why. I assume it's because for MT as there are several sub-populations and the mean score and std deviation differ, this has an advantage for 1 or 2 sub- population over the rest. as for MT shouldn't MOE use raw score? -
AWSP:
Feeder School System is not a fair system. No matter how one might argue about preserving culture or parents' contribution to the school as most parents and students who benefit will proposition.kamom:
The T-score for feeder schools is always lower for their own kind but higher for 'outsiders'. I always wonder if it is fair.
A child with a T-score of 200 can get into their feeder school.
A child wth a T-score of 220 can't get in cos' no \"connection\".
If a T-score of 220 cannot thrive in the school, how can a T-score of 200 survive???
It is not fair because it is not available as an option to the entire cohort no matter the background. Take those born to poorer families for example.
Likewise for DSA. Although my child benefitted from it. I will say without hesitation that it is not fair as it is not an option for those whose parents lack the means, knowledge and resources to go through the exercise.
I am disappointed with last week's talking point on whether DSA is fair. An MP whose child DSAed into a top school, went on to contend that it is fair and good because it takes away the stress for his child who may fumble in PSLE. I cannot see anyone could have ignored the fact that there is a majority out there for whom DSA is not an option.
but we must remember that students who get into schools like RI and RGS and even other IP schools via DSA sports may not be allowed to continue their 5th and 6th years at RI if they don't do well academically. which means these students win trophies for the schools for sports but may be kicked out if the schools think they won't be able to cope at JC. these kids without their GCE O levels have to switch to poly or other JCs. -
SAHM_TAN:
Don't know if this anecdote is relevant. A national gymnat got into a top school through DSA. I remembered T-score was less than 230. Life was tough because need to train 24/7 and to catch up with the others. Always among the last few in class in tests and exams. Cannot give up sport because that was the condition for DSA.Will a student who score 220 be able to thrive in RI? Assuming that 220 is consistent with the child's academic performance in school.
Wanted to quit top school and go poly but was persuaded by friends to hang in there. Scrapped through year 4 IP (by appeal I remembered) and reached JC. No longer need to continue with sport and has more time for study. Finally gotten AAABB for A level. Not a great score for that school but quite a remarkable achievement for that person's academic ability.
Moral of the story : Dip in red ink becomes red. Dip in black in becomes black. Mencius mummy shifted house 3 times so that he can be under the influence of good environment.
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