Are you ready for 7 million people on tiny Singapore?

[toddles]

I must say this debate is churning up some good stuff - at least i see some MPs earning their MP allowance.


http://nvpc.org.sg/Portals/0/EasyDNNNewsDocuments/1182/Laurence%20Lien%20-%20Population%20White%20Paper%20Speech%202013%20-%20%28070213%29.pdf

Laurence Lien's whole speech quite worth reading. Fav points as below:

Madam Speaker, I would like to commend the Government for raising a topic that is important and quite clearly not winning them brownie points at the moment with the public.
But I would like to say that the White Paper has missing and wrong ingredients, and I do not agree with the population projection numbers. Hence, I am unable to endorse the paper.

One key issue for me is that I am having a major disconnect. How did we go from fearing ageing and depopulation to having a potential population explosion? Where does this dependence on growing GDP through increased immigration end? If we continue the 1.4% total population growth projected for 2020-2030 in the White Paper beyond 2030, our population size will double every 50 years. This means it will hit 9.8m in 2050 and 19.7m by the end of the century.

In the ERC report, it projected a sustainable growth rate of 3-5 per cent per annum, with productivity growth of 2-3 per cent and labour force growth of 1-2 percent. Instead, we had labour force growth between 2000-2010 of 3.7%, almost double the upper bound target and with about two-thirds of this made up of immigration. The productivity growth of 1.8% was below the lower bound target.

Interestingly, this target has never changed. In February 2010, exactly 3 years ago, the Economic Strategies Committee (ESC), again reaffirmed the same targets – 2-3 percent productivity growth, GDP growth of 3-5 per cent, and by implication, a labour force growth of 1-2 percent.

In the Population White Paper, there is déjà vu. Exactly the same targets. Why is the Government saying then the White Paper is proposing a major shift to slowdown our rate of workforce and population growth, as if it were a major policy shift, when the policy and targets have stayed exactly the same from 2003 to 2010 to today? If the policy did not change, the infrastructure problems today seems less because of the lack of forward planning but because the original plan was not adhered to.

[dorisp]

hquek:

I don't advocate promiscuity but I salute those women who choose life over abortion. I had trouble coping when there was only one baby and was thankful for all the little help from hubby and family and certainly can't imagine if I was alone.


I don't think we should put them on a pedestal but it seems to me that these women are penalised left, right and centre. It doesn't seem right.

In any case, if those around me end up in this predicament, I rather they go at it alone than to marry the wrong man and end up in deeper soup.

If it has already happened, I agree totally that these women should not be penalised.

But if it hadn't happen, I won't want to give the gneeral acceptance message to women, especially young women, that our society does not discriminate single mothers hence they can do what they want without fear that there is a lack of spport from family and the society.

Being empathatic and supportive as an afterthought and advocating it as an acceptable behaviour on the national front is a totally different thing, IMHO.

:sad:

[wonderm]

dorisp:

If it has already happened, I agree totally that these women should not be penalised.

But if it hadn't happen, I won't want to give the gneeral acceptance message to women, especially young women, that our society does not discriminate single mothers hence they can do what they want without fear that there is a lack of spport from family and the society.

Being empathatic and supportive as an afterthought and advocating it as an acceptable behaviour on the national front is a totally different thing, IMHO.

:sad:

Agree totally. :goodpost:

[limlim]

Imami:

limlim:

[quote=\"ammonite\"] wah, reading this is tougher than PSLE papers. My Hokkien - fail ah! :oops:

it's not Hokkien.. or majority is not..

I think it's hokkien le.[/quote]My Hokkien also failed.... :oops:

can only detect 50% Hokkien..

[limlim]

3Boys:

MR06:

[quote=\"3Boys\"]From LLL


\"In a recent ST report, Singapore sees an average of 12,000 abortions a year, and 4 out of 10 women who went for abortions were single women. Reducing the discrimination against single mothers may reduce the likelihood of single mothers having to resort to terminating their pregnancies for fear of lack of support. Furthermore, for a country suffering from a fertility crisis, each child should be valued, and not punished simply because he or she is born to unmarried parents.\"

Are we as a society, ready for this?

She is not encouraging promiscuity, just suggesting accepting the product. I don't see why sweeping the dirt under the carpet by getting rid of the product should be considered a more noble solution.

I do not advocate abortions, but I can't see how you can walk that line as you suggest. Observations of more liberal societies than ours will tell you that's exactly the slippery slope we are headed down.

So please quit making excuses for the WP and at least be honest and accept the proposal for what it is, a more liberal mindset and greater acceptance of sexual promiscuity.[/quote]I say, be more kind to the babies.. support them as necessary.

However, punish the parents(man) for their promiscuity and irresponsibility. Maybe have a law that requires the father to support the child financially in addition to providing govt support for the child.

And yes.. make legal age of consent 21yo.. :evil: Unless they are married and waive the age limit.

Rather than encourage murder of the innocent child, discourage/disallow the underage parents from irresponsible acts..

A bit extreme.. maybe.. but I rather it be done this way then allow indiscriminate abortions and murdering of Singaporean-to-be while they're still in the womb.

If you're talking about values, I feel that engaging in irresponsible intercourse is worse than bringing up a child alone. I don't feel that being a single parent is anything to be shame of.. althou the parent should feel shameful of the process that lead to them being a parent w/o legal marriage.

[limlim]

toddles:

Same with anything you read on ST, actually. Hah.

Agree!

[3Boys]

dorisp:

hquek:

I don't advocate promiscuity but I salute those women who choose life over abortion. I had trouble coping when there was only one baby and was thankful for all the little help from hubby and family and certainly can't imagine if I was alone.


I don't think we should put them on a pedestal but it seems to me that these women are penalised left, right and centre. It doesn't seem right.

In any case, if those around me end up in this predicament, I rather they go at it alone than to marry the wrong man and end up in deeper soup.

If it has already happened, I agree totally that these women should not be penalised.

But if it hadn't happen, I won't want to give the gneeral acceptance message to women, especially young women, that our society does not discriminate single mothers hence they can do what they want without fear that there is a lack of spport from family and the society.

Being empathatic and supportive as an afterthought and advocating it as an acceptable behaviour on the national front is a totally different thing, IMHO.

:sad:

I say again, I am against abortion, and I am all for a kindler handling of single parents.

HOWEVER, we must not stick our heads in the sand and imagine that such a situation will not cause a shift in our acceptance and thinking of non-traditional families, which immediately and directly impact on how we think about pre-marital sex, non-marital sex and such.

Lets not kid ourselves, which country in the world has a high acceptance of children out of wedlock, that don't also simultaneously have a more permissive attitude about sex?

I'd prefer an honest discussion about the REAL trade-offs than some airy fairy notion put forth by some politician, that we can have our cake and eat it too.

[3Boys]

limlim:

3Boys:

[quote=\"MR06\"]

She is not encouraging promiscuity, just suggesting accepting the product. I don't see why sweeping the dirt under the carpet by getting rid of the product should be considered a more noble solution.

I do not advocate abortions, but I can't see how you can walk that line as you suggest. Observations of more liberal societies than ours will tell you that's exactly the slippery slope we are headed down.

So please quit making excuses for the WP and at least be honest and accept the proposal for what it is, a more liberal mindset and greater acceptance of sexual promiscuity.

If you're talking about values, I feel that engaging in irresponsible intercourse is worse than bringing up a child alone. I don't feel that being a single parent is anything to be shame of.. althou the parent should feel shameful of the process that lead to them being a parent w/o legal marriage.[/quote]But they are the same thing!! Was the end result of being a single parent not the consequence of 'irresponsible intercourse' (as you put it)?. If there is no stigma or societal sanction (and I am NOT saying there should be) to being a single parent, then where is the societal stigma to 'irresponsible intercourse'?

[Harlequin]

concern2:

Harlequin:

Lang tak ang moh chek, wa tak jip poon chek. Wa kong ang moh wei ma ciam pei kee landing, ti ti loh. Lang kong ang moh wei ma ciam helicopter landing, ser lai ser kee 3, 40 kuan bah lu che jik eh tight spot lai landing....
Gu poon si, mai kong shi wa! :faint:

Heng chai wa lao pei teochew lao bu hokkien, wa eh teochew hokkien koh eh sai pa kei.

So li, so li, kong liam buoy jit pai. :imsorry:

Harlequin - da wei oi sai, type ki lai ne, toi liao guai guai leh :? Mai type teo chew liao lah, bo dang hor lang pa! (the last 3 words purposely typed in hokkien, if pronounced wrongly lagi more funny! :rotflmao: )

Haha... You are superb! I understand every word you wrote even the last 3 words.

Maybe because I didn't learn English phonic, so don't know how to put a \"sound\" into text...hence my hokkien/teochew text sounded weird :?

[hquek]

How to reconcile showing support for those who have given birth and yet frown upon those engaging in such activities so as to result in such a predicament without withdrawing support? If we are to frown on such behaviour, then the only thing to do is to withold support like what is being done.


Even if govtal support are given to unwed parents (eg parental leave, ability to apply for housing), parenthood alone is daunting whichever way one looks at it. That, to me, is punishment enough.