Population woes
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3Boys:
That is the million question that should be determined by the world highest paid ministers, who also have access to all the data and consultants and sociologists, economists and whoever else that it takes to obtain this data. if i, a layman, can come up with the number, what are the million dollar ministers and the very expensive senior civil servants for? i don't think there is a fixed number and it should be evaluated periodically. And this review cannot be based only on GDP and economics numbers. Sociologists should be consulted and people's feelings should be considered. Frankly speaking, the recent gov policies are all geared towards numbers, GDP, etc. but is that what the general population want?
So, what is the optimal population size for Singapore, in your view.Dora1:
Mamago
Like I mentioned previously, I am not saying we should not allow FTs at all. I really hate it when the gov put forth their argument like it is all or none. We should have immigrants to make up the shortfall in birthdate, that's it. Not to grow the population by >1 million in 5 years. That is way above the replacement rate for birth. And because of the sudden increase, we are having all the associated problem mentioned. And not to mention the CMI quality of a lot of the recent FTs due to the lax selection criteria to make up the huge numbers.
Maybe we should have a national poll on what population size we want, with the projected economic trade offs highlighted. Let the people decide. Don't assume that everyone wants to grow the economy at all costs.
Seriously, do you feel that the recent influx is completely acceptable? -
Dora1:
That is the million question that should be determined by the world highest paid ministers, who also have access to all the data and consultants and sociologists, economists and whoever else that it takes to obtain this data.i don't think there is a fixed number and it should be evaluated periodically. And this review cannot be based only on GDP and economics numbers. Sociologists should be consulted and people's feelings should be considered. Frankly speaking, the recent gov policies are all geared towards numbers, GDP, etc. but is that what the general population want?
So, what is the optimal population size for Singapore, in your view.3Boys:
[quote=\"Dora1\"]Mamago
Like I mentioned previously, I am not saying we should not allow FTs at all. I really hate it when the gov put forth their argument like it is all or none. We should have immigrants to make up the shortfall in birthdate, that's it. Not to grow the population by >1 million in 5 years. That is way above the replacement rate for birth. And because of the sudden increase, we are having all the associated problem mentioned. And not to mention the CMI quality of a lot of the recent FTs due to the lax selection criteria to make up the huge numbers.
Maybe we should have a national poll on what population size we want, with the projected economic trade offs highlighted. Let the people decide. Don't assume that everyone wants to grow the economy at all costs.
Seriously, do you feel that the recent influx is completely acceptable?[/quote]Well, you just contradicted yourself in this post. You say the figure should be determined by the ministers who are paid millions, and then you say that you should let the people decide. What if the people and the ministers disagree?
Truth is, you ask 10 different 'people' you will get 5 different answers.
Easy to complain, much harder to actually figure if something is actually valid to complain about.
Which is why I am not a fan of armchair policy making.
To your last question, my answer is 'somewhat yes'. But that's me, a small minority. -
Nope, what I’m advocating is for the million dollar ministers and the expensive senior servants to come up with a few population range with the corresponding trade offs. E.g, if 4 million, what is the pros and cons, 5 million, 6 million. The research and calculations should be published and allowed for public audit and scrutiny by any indrpendent experts. And then let the people vote, I mean all the SCs like a GE. Yes, different people will give different answers, but the majority should win.
Arm chair critique, that’s what the majority of the population is capable of. are you suggesting we should all just shut up? There had been a few very good alternative suggestions by some experts, eg A/p Pauline. But seems to be so far selective listening has been adopted by those in the ivory tower. -
Dora1:
Nope, what I'm advocating is for the million dollar ministers and the expensive senior servants to come up with a few population range with the corresponding trade offs. E.g, if 4 million, what is the pros and cons, 5 million, 6 million. The research and calculations should be published and allowed for public audit and scrutiny by any indrpendent experts. And then let the people vote, I mean all the SCs like a GE. Yes, different people will give different answers, but the majority should win.
Arm chair critique, that's what the majority of the population is capable of. are you suggesting we should all just shut up? There had been a few very good alternative suggestions by some experts, eg A/p Pauline. But seems to be so far selective listening has been adopted by those in the ivory tower.
You are essentially asking everyone to be part of the government? This mean everybody has a say in any major gov policy... You know how great the price this nation has to pay?
No government in the world have done that, not in the history and civilization of mankind.... there must be a reason. -
Dora1:
Nope, what I'm advocating is for the million dollar ministers and the expensive senior servants to come up with a few population range with the corresponding trade offs. E.g, if 4 million, what is the pros and cons, 5 million, 6 million. The research and calculations should be published and allowed for public audit and scrutiny by any indrpendent experts. And then let the people vote, I mean all the SCs like a GE. Yes, different people will give different answers, but the majority should win.
You are kidding right? This is a population policy, not baking a cake. Say you shoot for 5 million of a mix of x type people and y type people but you only get 4.5 million people in 5 years. Then how? Make another recipe and put to vote again?
\"At 5 million people your average MRT waiting time will be 8 minutes, or if we choose to spend another 1 billion in upgrading, you can maintain waiting time at 6 minutes but either your GST will rise to 8% or your income tax will rise to 22% top rate.
If you agree to 5 million population with MRT waiting time at 8 min, please vote 1A
If you agree to population at 5 million but MRT waiting time at 6 min, and raise GST, please vote 1B
If you agree to population at 5 million but MRT waiting time at 6 min, and raise income tax, please vote 1C
At population 6 million, our annual GDP growth rate will be increased by an additional 2.3%, but average MRT......\"
See how ridiculous it gets?
Even Switzerland doesn't do this. -
mamago:
I doubt engineering jobs can be outsourced. You except someone 100km away to tighten a loose screw here? BS isn't it?(Haha, I learned the trick of pirating quotes from Pirate.)
Quoted from another thread: \"PM Asks \"What kind of people do we want to be?\"pirate:
As far as I can tell, the most shrill xenophobic voices online do not come from people whose \"survival is threaten by the badly planned immigration policy.\" The ones most impacted are the blue collar workers like bus drivers, nurses, cleaners, waiters etc. I don't see people clamouring for the government to clamp down on blue collar foreign workers.
On the contrary, the xenophobic voices come primarily from those in areas like IT, banking and admin - white collar workers in aircon offices. I have always been of the view that most of these office jobs can be outsourced overseas with a good corporate broadband link, and now with cloud computing...
So, guess what? Unless your job involves dealing directly with customers in Singapore (eg. private bankers, doctors, waiters) or physical work that must be done in Singapore (eg. bus drivers, cleaners, garbage collectors) or both (eg. nurses), the foreigner will threaten your survival, whether he is working in Singapore, Mumbai, Shanghai, Manila or JB. Welcome to the 21st century. Adapt and evolve or die.
As for why our government keep depressing blue collar wages by importing blue collar workers to do work that must be physically done in Singapore, I have no idea.
If it can be outsourced, it would meant \"work from home is possible\". If employee can work from home, then why are companies complaining that locals are not willing to travel?
The complains about FTs is that these are jobs that locals WANT to do, and there is no excuse to resort to imports to fill these vacancies.
As for FW, we have to resort to imports because the companies are unable to find enough workers locally.
We have to distinguish these 2 groups of foreigners. -
What will be next? People go around vote out their irritating colleagues, competitive co workers, their ugly neighbors, that lousy teachers in school? So on and so forth?
If a government as good as the Singapore’s can’t make the cut… who else can please you? Example?
(Ooops, not to you, limlim… your post happened to came in a second before mine.) -
Dora1:
The ivory tower is populated by those who can make plenty of grand pronouncements without having to take any consequences for the failure to deliver.Nope, what I'm advocating is for the million dollar ministers and the expensive senior servants to come up with a few population range with the corresponding trade offs. E.g, if 4 million, what is the pros and cons, 5 million, 6 million. The research and calculations should be published and allowed for public audit and scrutiny by any indrpendent experts. And then let the people vote, I mean all the SCs like a GE. Yes, different people will give different answers, but the majority should win.
Arm chair critique, that's what the majority of the population is capable of. are you suggesting we should all just shut up? There had been a few very good alternative suggestions by some experts, eg A/p Pauline. But seems to be so far selective listening has been adopted by those in the ivory tower.
Yeh, AP Pauline is a smart lady, but if the growth rate stalls and jobless rate rise, she got no accountability. That's the difference. They can listen, but at the end of the day, someone's got to make a decision. -
In the past, I have the impression that foreigners working here are talents… They come in small numbers, and we could accommodate them
However, in recent years encounters, I find that most of the capable PMET workers in the company are actually locals… and majority of the foreign PMET colleagues just CMI… if that is the case, why do we need them? why do we want them? Probably only the bosses want them… because they are CHEAP. the local worker don’t see any value added.
If we take in PMETs, then the numbers should be controlled. And only real talents came here.
Then, there would be less complains. -
limlim:
I doubt engineering jobs can be outsourced. You except someone 100km away to tighten a loose screw here? BS isn't it?
Quoted from another thread: \"PM Asks \"What kind of people do we want to be?\"mamago:
(Haha, I learned the trick of pirating quotes from Pirate.)
[quote=\"pirate\"]
As far as I can tell, the most shrill xenophobic voices online do not come from people whose \"survival is threaten by the badly planned immigration policy.\" The ones most impacted are the blue collar workers like bus drivers, nurses, cleaners, waiters etc. I don't see people clamouring for the government to clamp down on blue collar foreign workers.
On the contrary, the xenophobic voices come primarily from those in areas like IT, banking and admin - white collar workers in aircon offices. I have always been of the view that most of these office jobs can be outsourced overseas with a good corporate broadband link, and now with cloud computing...
So, guess what? Unless your job involves dealing directly with customers in Singapore (eg. private bankers, doctors, waiters) or physical work that must be done in Singapore (eg. bus drivers, cleaners, garbage collectors) or both (eg. nurses), the foreigner will threaten your survival, whether he is working in Singapore, Mumbai, Shanghai, Manila or JB. Welcome to the 21st century. Adapt and evolve or die.
As for why our government keep depressing blue collar wages by importing blue collar workers to do work that must be physically done in Singapore, I have no idea.
If it can be outsourced, it would meant \"work from home is possible\". If employee can work from home, then why are companies complaining that locals are not willing to travel?
The complains about FTs is that these are jobs that locals WANT to do, and there is no excuse to resort to imports to fill these vacancies.
As for FW, we have to resort to imports because the companies are unable to find enough workers locally.
We have to distinguish these 2 groups of foreigners.[/quote]Tightening a screw ain't engineering, it's called a household chore.
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