Budget 2013
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concern2:
So, please share how you come up with the calculation that it is cheaper to get somebody else to cook for you, using the exact same ingredients as found in the hawker centre food - comparing apples with apples.Haha! Yes, I did my calculations - who wouldn't if they have to do a fair share of cooking, shopping, eating out and ta bao personally? Frankly speaking, I don't see eating out and cooking as comparing apples to apples, so I found your argument about people being lazy to cook and cooking is generally cheaper than eating out is flawed - and narrow
I think a lot depends on family size and whether one has a full-time cook , be it a relative or domestic helper. Those who have small families living in new housing estates who have no domestic helpers and need to work and take care of family and work will know what I mean. So for some, eating out has become a necessity, and having home-cooked food a luxury.
Hm...I thought you have done some calculations yourself so I could learn something from you.. :sad:
Interesting also that you say 'wet market'. The place that I stay in, we have only 1 wet market within walking distance, and it isn't cheap compared to the NTUC which is also within walking distance. So, essentially, it doesn't make any difference whether it is wet market or not.
I have done my fair share of cooking for 2/3 meals at one time to save time. So don't give me that no time to cook therefore eating out is a necessity excuse. It is a matter of how one manages his/her time and grocery expenses.
You think there is no wet market in newer estates because (1) wet markets are too expensive or (2) young people nowadays only know how to buy groceries at air-con supermarkets? -
pirate:
There we go. People are too lazy to walk in for cheaper food. Or he never sell cheaper despite the low rent?[/quote]I believe more of the later..
There we go. Thanks, blueblue, for the information.concern2:
[quote=\"blueblue\"]Oh yes, there are food stalls rental at $20 per month.
That is only if one does not mind the very low human traffic. My hb's friend was given such a stall in jurong. He was not able to make a decent living due to very bad business. The hawker centre has a very poor layout. The poor fellow ended up renting another better located stall in same hawker centre with a 4 figures rental.
Singaporeans are well known for hunting good food no matter how remote they are.. :evil:
Famous hawker stalls with uber long queues are not always located in \"hot\" area.. some is really ulu but patrons always have a way to get there..
Hence, if a stall sells good food and is cheap, they will build a reputation for themselves somehow (or do minimum advertising) and words will spread and customer will flock in..
If between stall A & Stall B with same quality but Stall B is 10% or 50cts cheaper for a pkt of $3~$5 zhi char, but 50m further away, I will not hesitate to travel to stall B to get my food. I believe many will react similarly.
Even if quality and price is same but different standard of service, I will go to the one with better service even if it is 50m further away. -
limlim:
i believe so too
I believe more of the later.pirate:
.................
There we go. People are too lazy to walk in for cheaper food. Or he never sell cheaper despite the low rent?
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pirate:
Why do you say 'I think\"? It is a fact. I am not citing fictional cases here.
So, please share how you come up with the calculation that it is cheaper to get somebody else to cook for you, using the exact same ingredients as found in the hawker centre food - comparing apples with apples.concern2:
Haha! Yes, I did my calculations - who wouldn't if they have to do a fair share of cooking, shopping, eating out and ta bao personally? Frankly speaking, I don't see eating out and cooking as comparing apples to apples, so I found your argument about people being lazy to cook and cooking is generally cheaper than eating out is flawed - and narrow
I think a lot depends on family size and whether one has a full-time cook , be it a relative or domestic helper. Those who have small families living in new housing estates who have no domestic helpers and need to work and take care of family and work will know what I mean. So for some, eating out has become a necessity, and having home-cooked food a luxury.
Hm...I thought you have done some calculations yourself so I could learn something from you.. :sad:
Interesting also that you say 'wet market'. The place that I stay in, we have only 1 wet market within walking distance, and it isn't cheap compared to the NTUC which is also within walking distance. So, essentially, it doesn't make any difference whether it is wet market or not.
I have done my fair share of cooking for 2/3 meals at one time to save time. So don't give me that no time to cook therefore eating out is a necessity excuse. It is a matter of how one manages his/her time and grocery expenses.
You think there is no wet market in newer estates because (1) wet markets are too expensive or (2) young people nowadays only know how to buy groceries at air-con supermarkets?
No offence intended. I see you say you do a fair share of cooking to save time. May I know if that is comparing apple to apple? Like what kind of food exactly you cooked that you could also purchase from outside to make a dollar to dollar comparison?
To say eating out is an excuse for not cooking so generally is to accuse parents who have to work and by the time they get home to be too tired to cook, and/or have family to manage to be lazy. I think that is not a fair statement.
I don't think that is a result of laziness. If they are lazy, they'd prob choose to stay at home and kiao kah instead of working, right? Then meal time comes, just go outside to eat lor...yes? Maybe there ARE people like that, I won't say there aren't.
Very often, I see people taking public transport home and buying food back on their way home. For these people, if there is someone at home to do cooking for them, would they need to buy back? And I know many couples combine home-cooking and buying home/eating out, as their way of managing as this isn't a few days or a few weeks we are talking about. It is decades of one's daily life, so one needs to weigh out one's energy level, practicality, time management, etc., so as to keep one going. Not laziness, not excuses. Maybe there are some, just saying to make sweeping statements like that is to have one sided views of daily struggles modern parents face.
You are a husband, right, pirate? I hope if your wife chooses not to cook, you don't think she is giving excuses that she is actually just plain lazy. Again, no offence intended, just sharing my thoughts. -
limlim:
I believe more of the later..
There we go. People are too lazy to walk in for cheaper food. Or he never sell cheaper despite the low rent?pirate:
[quote=\"blueblue\"]Oh yes, there are food stalls rental at $20 per month.
That is only if one does not mind the very low human traffic. My hb's friend was given such a stall in jurong. He was not able to make a decent living due to very bad business. The hawker centre has a very poor layout. The poor fellow ended up renting another better located stall in same hawker centre with a 4 figures rental.
Singaporeans are well known for hunting good food no matter how remote they are.. :evil:
Famous hawker stalls with uber long queues are not always located in \"hot\" area.. some is really ulu but patrons always have a way to get there..
Hence, if a stall sells good food and is cheap, they will build a reputation for themselves somehow (or do minimum advertising) and words will spread and customer will flock in..
If between stall A & Stall B with same quality but Stall B is 10% or 50cts cheaper for a pkt of $3~$5 zhi char, but 50m further away, I will not hesitate to travel to stall B to get my food. I believe many will react similarly.
Even if quality and price is same but different standard of service, I will go to the one with better service even if it is 50m further away.[/quote]Thanks for chipping in, limlim!
It certainly makes a difference in terms of quality of food. I believe other than location, which is key, other factors like customer service do matter.
The stall in the corner starts with a disadvantage, almost like a handicap. He needs to work harder, if not, make himself stand out as to attract customers, and to continue to do so in order to succeed.
As for his food not being cheap enough, I do have some reservations. There is that basic ingredients cost. If you say the hawker isn't selling his food cheap enough, how cheap are we talking about? Reduce profit margin? Mark below cost? Or just break-even? If there is even profit that can be made from it to achieve higher sales, it is a good sign. However, if to price below cost and/break even, the hawker probably needs to use it to draw customers and slowly increase price over time, improving customer service and quality of food (e.g. taste better) at the same time so as not to loose customers due to the price increase. There is always an optimal customers are willing to pay. Also, will be a question how long the hawker can hold on to the low price since hawkers generally do not have abundant capital to throw in.
Assuming this to be a case, and the biz succeeds, it is still based on the situation whereby the rental is still at $20. Any one time rental is increased, the selling prices will have to be re-looked into, unless that is, so much goodwill has been earned over time that he is able to increase his price and still retain customers. And then, when there is renovation, the stall will need to relocate, or to halt biz temporarily. And everything starts from zero.
When renovations are made, it is often based on the assumption that conditions are better (of course, this never comes free). However, this isn't guaranteed. In fact, many hawkers' sales decline after that. I wonder if NEA keeps track of these things. Would be good if they do, so that things can be improved and looked into. -
I went to the NEA website and could not find the page on rental. There is one on myhawkers.sg, and under Adviseries, ‘Hawkerstalls’. I can’t see one which shows tender results.
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[/quote]
Aiya, wasted, missed it. Can anyone post the article here?
.....Only in ST ah...so EXclusive ah.. :duck:[/quote]
I have no concern whether you read it or not. I kind of suspect you will not be interested anyway. I felt it is a good speech which highlighted the reality that most people seems refused to contemplate and thought some in the KSP community might be interested to know. Whoever is interested enough will know where to read it. You can really for once stop seizing every single opportunity to insinuate inappropriateness and then put down anything that you perceived as associated with government/pap. You come across as trying too hard already. -
Concern2:
Woao....first time I see you commenting on my post in this tone.
Aiya, wasted, missed it. Can anyone post the article here?
.....Only in ST ah...so EXclusive ah.. :duck:HVR:
I have no concern whether you read it or not. I kind of suspect you will not be interested anyway. I felt it is a good speech which highlighted the reality that most people seems refused to contemplate and thought some in the KSP community might be interested to know. Whoever is interested enough will know where to read it. You can really for once stop seizing every single opportunity to insinuate inappropriateness and then put down anything that you perceived as associated with government/pap. You come across as trying too hard already.
Why do you have to suspect what I say? Because I like to joke about garmen and ST? You don't believe that I actually searched PAP website and Parliament website ah? Have you gone in to see for yourself after I said I couldn't find the latest speeches in there? If I have missed out any links, the least you could do is to point out to me (and some would not hesitate to make me look stupid I am sure) would that be so difficult? I know I am not perfect, and I asked for directions, but you guys who seem to know a lot can't be bothered to give directions. Then, blame people for just reading opposing voices? Well, I guess it only makes sense. At least they bother.
Question: Was what you quoted ALL that Mr. Seetoh said in parliament? If so, then I will rest my case. If not, which website can I find the full speech so that I can get to know this MP better? Perhaps this way of asking is more acceptable. -
http://www.singapolitics.sg/news/trust-and-politics-sitoh-yih-pin
Budget 2013 Debate Speech of the Day: March 6
Trust and politics - Sitoh Yih Pin
Posted on Mar 6, 2013 8:59 PM Updated: Mar 6, 2013 9:03 PM
By Singapolitics
The paradox of trust: Trust is something entirely abstract yet the absence of which is painfully palpable. Trust determines the course we take in the future, yet it is so utterly anchored in the present. Trust is unquantifiable yet reflected in each and every vote cast at elections.
The recent robust debate on the White Paper on Population put into bold relief the importance of trust in politics. The Managing Editor of The Straits Times, Mr Han Fook Kwang highlighted this as well in his opinion piece in the Straits Times on 10 Feb 2013 “Government needs to regain people’s trust”.
The planning norm of 6.9M was much criticized. To me, this is a matter of trust. If public transport does not work well and buses and trains are crowded, when the supply of HDB flats does not keep up with demand and the cost of living rises steeply when the population is at 5.3M, then people will object to a lower norm of even 6.3M, let alone a norm of 6.9M. However, when at a population of 5.3M, the trains run, the buses are not crowded, HDB flats are built quickly enough and inflation is low, then people will give us the benefit of doubt and support us even when the population planning norm is higher than 6.9M. Therefore, it is heartening to hear our DPM and Finance Minister reiterate during his Budget speech that we will fix the problems we have on hand. He has our trust in this matter.
We are all in the business of trust. Trust is ultimately based on present and past experiences of what the government has delivered. To the public, the government includes not just politicians, but also civil servants and even boards and management of privatized companies offering public services, such as those in healthcare and transport. In the coffeeshops and hawker centres, the Hokkien term “Zenghu” means much more than what bureaucrats and politicians think of what constitutes “government”.
Trust is based on experience and in turn experience has two elements – Firstly, there is the aspect of performance that we are all familiar with - I trust you because you have worked and delivered in the past. Secondly, there is the element of expectation. This is something that we have not discussed much about recently.
Our government has tried very hard in the past to enunciate what it will deliver for the people. Healthcare will remain affordable, schools will give good education, people will have jobs etc. The recently announced White Paper and Land Paper are two such examples. The Annual Budget Debates are also examples of these efforts to manage and calibrate expectations.
I would like to urge our Government to go one-step further. In the management of expectations, we need to tell the people the bad news. This is not pleasant, but it is necessary. It requires courage and fans of the BBC comedy “Yes Minister” will remember that Sir Humphrey described “courage” as a dirty word in politics.
These bad news include
We will increase the number of places in universities and polytechnics and 60% of Singaporeans will become PMETs, but some graduates will never stay in private housing or own a car. This is because 85% of housing are HDB flats and only 1/3 of families have a car presently and these numbers will not change drastically.
This country needs to continue to be run as a meritocracy. There is no other feasible alternative. The best will get more. One may rightly question the norms of meritocracy, as in what makes a person more meritorious? One may even ask why are there so many brand-name schools in the more affluent areas in Singapore and not in the new HDB estates. And in the harsh reality of meritocracy, we also expect the meritorious to do what is necessary for meritocracy to remain relevant – they must contribute more than others to the betterment of the society and maximize welfare for everyone living and working in Singapore. Meritocracy cannot be “take and take” by the best and the ablest without any obligation to serve and contribute.
Even if we increase our TFR to 2.1 in 2013 suddenly, we will need to import labour to care for the elderly over the next 20 years. The babies born now or in the near future will not be ready to look after the 900,000 baby boomers retiring over the next 20 years. We are not even talking about money here, but just simply the number of hands needed to care for the number of elderly we will have in 10 to 30 years’ time.
Our public hospitals will continue to give good care that is accessible and affordable to all. But we will have to continue to have waiting times and the latest high-tech expensive care options will not be available to all. Ultimately, healthcare is a trade-off between affordability, accessibility and quality. Usually, quality in terms of expensive care is of a lower priority, although we will not compromise patient safety. This is true for most developed countries in the world.
We will make our public transport reliable again and increase capacity. But COEs may never go back to the days of old again. There are limits to our car population just as there are limits to our human population.
We will limit the influx of foreign labour into Singapore, but we cannot shield our workers from competition. The reality is that our workers will still be competing day and night, 24-7 with workers in China, India or Indonesia.
Madam Speaker, I can go on with many more examples of such harsh realities that Singapore is facing or must face but I will stop here. The currency of politics is trust. While we must strive to improve on our performance, we also need to get down to the difficult business of managing expectations.
Expectation is a spectrum. Most politicians only talk about the higher end of the spectrum – the lofty things that are nice to hear. But as responsible politicians governing Singapore, we will have to be honest and we will have to communicate the bad news, the harsh realities that each and every Singaporean has to face sooner or later.
Sometimes, in order to do the right thing, we also need to be foolish. Confucius said “明知不可为而为之” which loosely translated means “We have to attempt to do this even though we clearly understand it cannot be done”. This may sound foolish today, but I think it is the right thing to do.
Managing expectations is a most difficult thing, but I think Singaporeans need to know the limits and realities they are facing or will face. And even if we think the people will refuse to listen or accept the bad news, in the spirit of Confucius, I hope this is an endeavor that this House will undertake as responsible leaders of this country. Singaporeans deserve no less.
In conclusion, Confucius also said “五十知天命”which translated means at 50, one knows one’s purpose in life. I turn 50 this year and Singapore is fast approaching 50 as a nation. We are now at the crossroads and Singaporeans are questioning what is the Singapore core and where is the country heading. I urge our government to listen to the people, to labour for the people and to lead the people.
TAGS: BUDGET 2013, PARLIAMENT AND SPEECH OF THE DAY -
concern2:
To say eating out is an excuse for not cooking so generally is to accuse parents who have to work and by the time they get home to be too tired to cook, and/or have family to manage to be lazy. I think that is not a fair statement.
Ok lah, ok lah. I concede that for people who need 5 minutes to slice an onion, 15 minutes to fry an egg and 45 minutes to make fried rice from leftover steamed rice, eating out is a necessity without which they may starve. I am sure it is also the gov's fault that they have to buy kopi-O or milo from the food centre/coffeshop because they are too tired in the morning to boil water and make it themselves and/or too poor to buy a kettle.
Should I apologize that I was brought up by a mother (whom the present generation would call a PRC) who drummed it into me that (1) never spend more than your means; and (2) eating out is a treat, not a necessity?
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