Homosexuality

[qizai]

3Boys:

Joseph27:

This thread contains the usual blend of religious, homophobic and dare I say, hateful nonsense. The fact that anyone could cite the bible in denouncing a lifestyle is so far beyond me I struggle to see you as an otherwise rationale human being. I understand however that most of you on this board are only looking after the best interests of your families and are not purposely trying to hurt anyone.


I am an angmo - married with 2 kids however I have gay family members and friends and they are beautiful people... to denounce them because you believe in Jesus means you havent the slightest clue about what Jesus taught... To cite the old testament means you are causing people genuine pain. You ever wonder what impact your poisonous rhetoric has on a young persons mind - especially when they find themselves attracted by the same sex. Sure the 5 year old son is wonderful but what happens if he tells you he is gay when he is 15... do you disown him? Do you drive him to kill himself? To make that 15 year old feel so different is pure and simple evil.

So you have then taken it upon yourself to be the morality police and ride roughshod over other folks beliefs, and condemning them yes?

So if you are right, then those who at odds with you must be wrong, yes?

Who's casting the rhetoric now?

I don't have to use hateful rhetoric, but plainly stated, I believe homosexuality is wrong. And I don't denounce or hate them either, they are free to live their lives as they wish, but I do not have to close one eye and pretend to approve (at least in this country, unlike some in the west) or pretend that I think its alright for my children to make that life-choice, and I have the right to state that in a public forum, that my and other children read, geddit?

Very simple proposition from me;

I do not discriminate against gays; I work with them the same, I buy goods and services from gay vendors, it is part of loving and not judging your fellow man.

I do draw the line at organisations and individuals trying to promote and normalise homosexual tendencies, through schools or other channels, to my children. If any of my boys end up that way, they are still my boys, and they will never lose my love, but they will never have my approval for that life-choice either (and yes, I know all about the supposed biological underpinnings).

I can agree to disagree, but I will not have a liberal position rammed down my throat like it is in the west. There is a nuance, and you have completely missed it.

This is potentially turning into a very heated discussion, so let me take upon myself to construct a truth table so that any earlier misunderstanding between you guys can be avoided.
[list]

[cnimed]

I have gay relatives and friends. My aunt and uncle said something beautiful and wonderful when my cousin finally came out to them after a major breakdown - You are our child. Of course we’ll always be behind you and support you no matter what.


My cousin told me after that - mum is still the best.

I also have relatives who experimented with the lifestyle, and ultimately went back to the opposite sex (which we bystanders already know would happen). From my limited view, there are those who are biologically wired, and there are those who are only curious and experimenting or just taking advantage of a same-sex person infatuated with them. And there are also those who are simply repulsed by the very thought (also exist among my relatives). It’s simply beyond their imagination.

I take Joseph27’s main point - there are young people who have been driven to contemplate suicide over this issue. What a waste, what a shame. I do not feel he is being the morality police. I do not feel he was trying to ram a position down anyone’s throat. He is simply pointing out something very valid and very real and that he has probably seen in his personal life.

I take 3Boys’ point - drawing the line at organisations and individuals trying to normalise and promote homosexuality. I think many parents will agree with this, because this, ideally, should be something that parents handle at home.

I can only say that I belong to the generation when there are no such organisations, and homosexuals live their lives in closet for years. But they are there, whether or not there are organisations for them to turn to. Some are still lonely in their closets. One of my friends told me once after walking for hours along the expressway, "No matter how much I try (male actor) always still look better to me than (female actress)."

For him, he desperately wishes that he can change. He WANTS to change. But the idea of kissing a girl probably makes him go "yetch" as much as the idea of same-sex kissing is to others…Actually my relative tried to convert herself as well - life in mainstream is so much easier. But she simply find intimacies with males repulsive. What to do?

[Joseph27]

3Boys:

Joseph27:

This thread contains the usual blend of religious, homophobic and dare I say, hateful nonsense. The fact that anyone could cite the bible in denouncing a lifestyle is so far beyond me I struggle to see you as an otherwise rationale human being. I understand however that most of you on this board are only looking after the best interests of your families and are not purposely trying to hurt anyone.


I am an angmo - married with 2 kids however I have gay family members and friends and they are beautiful people... to denounce them because you believe in Jesus means you havent the slightest clue about what Jesus taught... To cite the old testament means you are causing people genuine pain. You ever wonder what impact your poisonous rhetoric has on a young persons mind - especially when they find themselves attracted by the same sex. Sure the 5 year old son is wonderful but what happens if he tells you he is gay when he is 15... do you disown him? Do you drive him to kill himself? To make that 15 year old feel so different is pure and simple evil.

So you have then taken it upon yourself to be the morality police and ride roughshod over other folks beliefs, and condemning them yes?

So if you are right, then those who at odds with you must be wrong, yes?

Who's casting the rhetoric now?

I don't have to use hateful rhetoric, but plainly stated, I believe homosexuality is wrong. And I don't denounce or hate them either, they are free to live their lives as they wish, but I do not have to close one eye and pretend to approve (at least in this country, unlike some in the west) or pretend that I think its alright for my children to make that life-choice, and I have the right to state that in a public forum, that my and other children read, geddit?

Very simple proposition from me;

I do not discriminate against gays; I work with them the same, I buy goods and services from gay vendors, it is part of loving and not judging your fellow man.

I do draw the line at organisations and individuals trying to promote and normalise homosexual tendencies, through schools or other channels, to my children. If any of my boys end up that way, they are still my boys, and they will never lose my love, but they will never have my approval for that life-choice either (and yes, I know all about the supposed biological underpinnings).

I can agree to disagree, but I will not have a liberal position rammed down my throat like it is in the west. There is a nuance, and you have completely missed it.

I will be honest in saying that I have nothing but contempt for religion though I love a lot of people who are religious so I do understand where you are coming from.

[3Boys]

Joseph27:

I will be honest in saying that I have nothing but contempt for religion though I love a lot of people who are religious so I do understand where you are coming from.

That's too bad.

My position has less to do with religion than you think....

....nonetheless, extremist though religions can be, contempt for religion is equally extremist......and generally is not contempt for religion or God per se (if you do not believe in God, how could you hate him, yes?), but rather for some of the practitioners of religion.......so I understand where you are coming from too.

[Joseph27]

3Boys:

Joseph27:

I will be honest in saying that I have nothing but contempt for religion though I love a lot of people who are religious so I do understand where you are coming from.

That's too bad.

My position has less to do with religion than you think....

....nonetheless, extremist though religions can be, contempt for religion is equally extremist......and generally is not contempt for religion or God per se (if you do not believe in God, how could you hate him, yes?), but rather for some of the practitioners of religion.......so I understand where you are coming from too.

I can fully appreciate a degree of discomfort at certain aspects of overt gay politics coupled with very liberal agendas expressed as cultural norms in our schools and universities. My problem comes with judging a modern lifestyle and condemning behavior through ancient superstitions.

My contempt for religion is based on many people’s observance of these superstitions without regard for the existence of specific religious dogma. I don’t hate god, I don’t believe in god but I really dislike anyone teaching superstition as fact and ignoring blatant discrepancies’ in dogma for convenience. It doesn’t matter what religion you believe in, it is flawed and based on nonsense but yet we are meant to respect everyone regardless of whatever poison they sprout because its religion.

I don’t respect religion, however I am happy to say nothing until such time that the religious try to interfere and project their faith onto society, fundamentalist Christian or Muslim style.

[autolycus]

Joseph27:

I don’t respect religion, however I am happy to say nothing until such time that the religious try to interfere and project their faith onto society, fundamentalist Christian or Muslim style.

Well, you don't have to be irreligious to not respect religion. I am 100% certain that being religious makes some people unable to respect religion — their own or anyone else's. The evidence is everywhere.

Come to think of it, I feel the same way about economists that you feel about religionists.

[qizai]

Joseph27:

I don’t respect religion, however I am happy to say nothing until such time that the religious try to interfere and project their faith onto society, fundamentalist Christian or Muslim style.

I think I see where you are coming from, given your dual religious background. Religion can be more trouble than its worth, if people keep on projecting their views on others.

There are too many religious people out there who like to proclaim \"If you're not with me on this issue, you're not on my side, and therefore you are potentially my enemy\".

It's annoying when people come around and say things like \"You're wrong to believe in this, or you should be doing more\". In Singapore, people really need to learn to agree to disagree.

Perhaps it's just the practitioners of the various religions that you are truly disgusted with, and not the religions themselves.

[3Boys]

Well,

I think there is a certain arrogance if one chooses to dismiss God and religion as hocus-pocus and superstition, when one does not have a full understanding, and when there are far greater intellects in society who do believe in God.

If that is not a projection of beliefs, I don’t know what is.

Nonetheless, I am happy to stay quiet too, until a certain point of view is put forth as incontrovertible ‘truth’.

[3Boys]

autolycus:

Joseph27:

I don’t respect religion, however I am happy to say nothing until such time that the religious try to interfere and project their faith onto society, fundamentalist Christian or Muslim style.

Well, you don't have to be irreligious to not respect religion. I am 100% certain that being religious makes some people unable to respect religion — their own or anyone else's. The evidence is everywhere.

Come to think of it, I feel the same way about economists that you feel about religionists.

What on earth is a religionist?? I've never heard anyone describe himself as such....

[Joseph27]

3Boys:

Well,

I think there is a certain arrogance if one chooses to dismiss God and religion as hocus-pocus and superstition, when one does not have a full understanding, and when there are far greater intellects in society who do believe in God.

What does it mean to have a full understanding? If you are a strict Muslim and believe fully in the Quran and Hadith as taught to you by your parents and religious teachers then your understanding of the truth is very subjective and reliant on dubuious sources. If you believe what you are taught 100% and don't question it for a minute then why should I respect your beliefs especially if they don't reconcile with historical facts?

To state that there are far greater intellects in society who do believe in God than don't is pure fiction and disrespects the legacy of some of humanties greatest thinkers. Even today this ascertion is flawed and the band of atheists are more than a match for their religious contemporaries. Personally I am happy to be a rationalist pathenist though I am all too aware of what Freud would have to say about that.