3Boys:

Cor.... you're good! Sorry you've missed me, I've been busy being ditzy....

And I didn't get invited? Where's the love, Paris? Where's the love???

3Boys:

But you gotta admit, I got under your skin big time, Nicole

wha? are you really that insecure that you need validation? If you had actually got under my skin, big time no less, one would think you wouldn't have to say it. Guess you're tired of giving yourself high fives. I blame the alchohol and your video. No la I'm kidding, the video's good. I'd give you a pat on the head and a biscuit just to boost your self-esteem, but I'm all out...... of pats on the head. And biscuits. but here's a tummy rub!!!

3Boys:

And no, I don't deal differently with ex-school mates vs folk from other schools, at work or socially....to do so in the first instance would be discrimination, and in the second instance, just silliness.

It's sad that you treat everyone equally badly. The angels shed a tear. But it's not about discrimination. It's about acknowledging a special bond, of a shared experience and culture during our formative years, even if we've never met. What's silly would be to ignore it.

3Boys:

Also, I don't think you can speak for all ACSians, for I personally know 2 old boys who are adamant their children would NOT attend ACS, and one of them now has his son in RI.

Woah stop the press! 2 whole old boys? I didn't say I spoke for all ACSians. Let me show you.

jencrs:

I can tell you that most, if not all, of the ACSians I know would send their kids to ACS, even if their results afford them an academically better school.

3Boys:

My view, this parochialism is just plain unhelpful. Obviously you disagree, and so be it.

Paris

I could agree with you paris, but then we'd both be wrong You overgeneralise and oversimplify (for emphasis la)

Don't take the easy way out, Paris. Read what I wrote, what i've quoted, and say something real, without trying to sidestep. Make us proud.

xoxo,
nicole.

verykiasu2010:

:offtopic: you miss the hilton one or the french one ? lol

Got another one now la. See la nvr read my nonsense so u dunno haha.

Unfortunately, Earnest Lau not really my time. Just remember him from school photos. I've been reading on his experience in ACS in Echo, and what he wrote is inspiring, and gives me a greater appreciation of how far we've come as a school.


Let me just cut and paste an excerpt from Earnest Lau's article \"In Days of Yore\". While not exactly the same situation, I believe the lessons learnt then, are equally valid for what we've been talking about in the last few pages.
[quote]By the 1960s, the old School had begun to evolve with the changing political and social climate. Organisationally, ACS was required to merge the morning and afternoon sessions into one school. Until then, the afternoon session was known as the Oldham Methodist School which was the re-named Anglo-Chinese Continuation School. It was a convenient way to post the weaker students to the afternoon session...............It was welcomed by the boys as the largely artificial distinction was broken for good. Although there was an initial negative effect on School Certificate results, ACS lived with it and, in due course, caught up.

Student morale in the afternoon session was, to begin with, relatively modest – the boys were from the bottom half of the cohort whose self-worth can be imagined. This had a knock-on effect on the teachers as well. Although efforts were made to counteract this with a variety of sporting activities and clubs, the atmosphere was unhealthy. If anything, there was a reverse pride in wanting to “disprove” their image. What negative effect it had on the “ACS spirit” was anybody’s guess.

The restructuring of the School in 1973 was a significant step towards rectifying an unsatisfactory situation about which many had complained, until the Board of Governors decided to reorganise the school. The effect was telling: for me, it was easier to manage the younger boys and build up school spirit. The teachers took somewhat longer to get into their stride.

This observation is based on my personal experience in teaching some of the weakest students in Secondary II, whose motivation was low, but I hoped that after several months with them, their attitudes would improve. I have dwelt on this issue at some length because I believe it was a clear lesson in understanding the effects of negative labelling where only the “best” are identified, leaving “the rest” to fend for themselves.[/quote]http://www.blueskiescom.com/alumni/may_jun_10/earnest_lau_03.html

It goes deeper than hurt feelings and bruised egos. Here's a man who not only thinks about the students, but also of the school as a whole.

I miss Paris.

clayman:

From one ACS boy to another jencrs....Cheers!


If only there is another in the mould of Ernie....

Class of 78.

Always a pleasure to meet my bruther fm another muther. Lai! Cheers!

3Boys:

Save the snarkiness please, it merely obfuscates and I have dealt with far worse. If you want to talk about the issues, then talk about the issues.

Obfuscate haha when I see that I think of X-files. Awesome stuff, but they really shouldn't have made the 2nd movie. Or got T-1000 in, although he wasn't as bad as expected. Anyway, I doubt if anyone got confused by the nonsense i post, since they're generally quite off topic. It's not like I wildly speculate about stuff but call it obvious, made statements only to contradict myself, or make assumptions about what we agree upon. I mean, if anyone jumped in and saw that they might actually think I knew what I was talking about. Is that hypothetical? I dunno I get confused easily.

3Boys:

You say that it is more than hurt feelings, but when I asked in a previous post about what your quibble was, you demurred on critiquing his credentials as a educationist, and his need to exhibit leadership behaviours. When I offered up that the board had possibly taken a broader view, you mumbled something nondescript but made no attempt to perhaps make some consideration as to their actions. In short, you do not seem to have much of an issue with anything that perhaps is supportive of OTC being appointed to that role, and the only thing you have cited thus far against it is that you did not like to hear him tell top students to go to RI. What other conclusion should I draw? Pray tell.

Ya I was out, trying to bang out something on the iphone, but so difficult to scroll and read what you wrote or what I wrote. But at least whiled away a good few mins and..... i figured out how to scroll within the reply box itself. Woot!

3Boys:

my view is that being 'disloyal' to a school is different from being disloyal to a nation by some magnitude, in some countries you can get hanged for that, as the stakes are much higher. That's why there is no law in preventing CEOs from switching companies, but there are laws in many countries that only citizens can hold top office.

Ah but since you started comparing MM Lee to Ong, I thought it was ok to talk about it at a national level. You must explain these rules to me, I believe that a day where I learn something, is a day well spent. Don't you?

Anyway, you've got to stop watching all those movies. My little story doesn't have that kind of drama like hanging and stuff. You add things like \"some countries\", when I'm talking about S'pore specifically, and gloss over the rest. I find that numbering some points helps me focus, maybe it will help you too?
1) M'sian guy (could be CEO who likes 7up..... or not) comes to S'pore and becomes a citizen.
2) Singapore. Not some other country.
3) He serves whatever time he has to as a citizen, to be able to run for public office.
4) So he becomes PM, has great plans for S'pore.
5) He encourages S'porean graduates to migrate to M'sia for better opportunities.
6) Disloyal? But he's looking out for our S'porean graduates' futures.
7) And S'pore is part of a greater community. If our neighbours fall, we can't hope to survive. So even if our graduates go onto greater things in other countries, we all will gain, eventually.

So what do you think our MM Lee will say to that?
Let's for a sec forget about what trouble this guy will get into. How will you as a citizen feel?

Different in magnitute? Sure, but I think closer in spirit to what I am talking about, than buying financial products.

3Boys:

What is the stake in OTC advising a top ACSian to go to RI?

Maybe you missed what I said earlier so here it is again in full glory.

jencrs:

If he told this to specific students, the cream of the crop, I could perhaps tolerate it.

But to say this publicly, to students in general and teachers present

Not just a singular \"top ACSian\".

So what is it about? I guess for me, it comes down to the character of the person in charge of an institution which I was in for 12 years. Personally, I don't care too much whether he was from RI, if what he does later is in the interests of the students, AND also of the school itself as well.

To me, his actions didn't show that he had the interests of the school at heart. And this is the leader of my school? If as a leader one doesn't look after the interests of the school, then who's going to do it? He didn't have that much to lose, after all the P would naturally bear the lion's share of blame if anything went wrong. And was it that noble to ask students to go to a \"better\" school? It's not like he's going to keep track of every student that follows that advice, or offer them a place in ACJC/ACS if things don't work out. They leave, and he washes his hands off their affairs.

So who's side is he on? Where do his priorities lie? The better students, but not the average student and not the school in general? That's not good enough. Or to show the right qualities, in my view, only when he becomes in charge? Not good enough either. As principal, he must be held to a higher standard.

So as Principal, he's naturally more likely to hire teachers and administrators who are like minded. These teachers, who probably share the same priorities as the Principal, will be the educators of our children. They will spend more time, and impart more values, than some parents would with their own children. And for what? Awards like S'pore Quality Class? Yay. Not above 8th though. In the meantime, I hear from different sources that ACS(I) students look down on those from Barker Road. Are these the type of ACSians ACS(I) produces now? Did we lose something in Ong's search for academic excellence? Why is such a culture present in the school now? The leaders and teachers certainly influence (i'm not saying encourage) the culture and thinking in some way. We had PS and JS in our time, but we didn't care where the other guy came from unless if it was if you knew so-and-so.

Previously, I could tell some guys were ACSians just by looking at them. No, not while they were wearing their uniforms. By the way they spoke, the way they carried themselves. I'm not sure if any other school has that, but I'll be interested to know. And when we find our brethren, there's immediately a strong bond, and we're far more willing to go out of our way to help each other.

When I see the young ACSians of today, I wonder if they are able to feel the same way as I do. Passionate, and fiercely loyal. You say I made sacrifices, but I disagree. Rather, the generation of ACSians after me were probably the ones who made the sacrifice, and the tragedy is that they will never know it.

So it's not just hurt feelings that better students are encouraged to go Raffles. What he does and says, give a glimpse into his character, and many like myself, don't like what we see. The consequences affect not just the present students, but students in future. Under his leadership, while we gain many awards, do we lose what it means to be an ACSian? Is that sacrifice worth it? After all, what profit a man if he gains the world, yet...........

But maybe you don't feel the same way about your school, as ACS old boys do our school. After all, you said you would consider sending your kids to ACS. I can tell you that most, if not all, of the ACSians I know would send their kids to ACS, even if their results afford them an academically better school.

Anyway, I'm just droning on and on. It's 6.20 and I'm up late, not early. I talk nonsense most of the time, but now at least I have an excuse. I was also distracted by Martha Stewart making a nice drink on tv, so what i've written so far might seem disjointed. When Ellen supposed to be on dammit!?

Still, you should chill out a little, why so serious? Over a guy you don't even know? We're BFFs after all. You're Paris, of course, with all your drinking and high living. I'll be Nicole, with the weight problem, except in the opposite sense. We'll be at a birthday bash held in your honour, even though it's not your birthday, and while you dance and flash your panties to everyone, you'd pause with a faraway look in your eyes, thinking about the picture you have in your wallet of OTC that you cut out of the Straits Times and you think to yourself, \"why does he always look so tired?\" and muse about how you can share his burden. All I ask is that you let me down easy.

Oh ya, insert => wherever you see a period.

3Boys:

Save the snarkiness please, it merely obfuscates and I have dealt with far worse. If you want to talk about the issues, then talk about the issues.


You say that it is more than hurt feelings, but when I asked in a previous post about what your quibble was, you demurred on critiquing his credentials as a educationist, and his need to exhibit leadership behaviours. So what exactly is it that makes you unhappy?

The question you posed is not an analogy, it is hypothetical. There is a difference. But if you must, my view is that being 'disloyal' to a school is different from being disloyal to a nation by some magnitude, in some countries you can get hanged for that, as the stakes are much higher. That's why there is no law in preventing CEOs from switching companies, but there are laws in many countries that only citizens can hold top office. What is the stake in OTC advising a top ACSian to go to RI? A better developed individual for Singapore perhaps? I am finding it hard to see the downside of that.

Snarky? I'm only kidding la, because since you found it suitable to share something off topic like drinking cabernet, makaning dinner, talking with the wife, I thought I could go off-topic too. Just to fit in, you know? Added the wink just to make you feel better. And it's great that you've dealt badly with extra-snarky people before, we learn from our mistakes ya? So relax la, it's all good.

I'm going out to meet some friends for a cuppa and reflect, wearing my fav berms and a tshirt everyone's been telling me to throw away. It's been washed, just holes where there shouldn't be. I'll come back later, but in the meantime, just have a look with a sober eye at some of what i've posted earlier, so maybe I wouldn't have to repeat myself too much. ()

3Boys:

Alright, as long as we know what it comes down to, which is basically some bruised ego and some ACSians of the time feeling hurt.

We? Probably better if you just spoke for yourself, since I've been saying that it's more than that. I hope that we are clear on that. Unless you are royalty, then \"we\" is ok. I'm royalty too, but only for about 15min a day.


I'm a little hurt that you've not talked about my little analogy with the ex-Msian as Sporean PM. You quoted it, but didn't address it. If it'll make it easier for you, let's just say the ex-Msian used to be a CEO in Msia who prefers 7Up to coke.

autolycus came up with some interesting numbers and a good point as well. (agree? (I hope so(but why the brackets(better effect if i shrink the front (agree?(sorry can't go any smaller)))))

3Boys:

jencrs:

[quote=\"3Boys\"]I actually couldn't care less which school my Principal came from. Having a history can both be a help and a hindrance. The right man for the right job is all that matters, I say. Maybe that's where you an I differ, I don't have a hang-up about which old boy was my headmaster.


As to the board, yes, I am speculating, but I have seen similar inside vs outside hiring decisions at the top level and the reasons are invariably as I have mentioned above. I am open to your and other suggestions as to their motive for appointing him. I had a quick scan of some of the present board members, and there are a fair number of industry luminaries. Yes, ACS is a school, the primary goal is education and holistic upbringing. However, many aspects of running a school are similar to running a company. Why else is the set-up at the governance level like that of a company? Actually there is an article I read somewhere that school principals do not some elements of CEO behaviour or the place would just fall apart. Anyway, are you critiquing his credentials as an educator? Because that was not apparent earlier.

MM Lee? I shudder to think how we would be if he were Lily-livered. Why does Singapore have any right to be different from our neighbours? On the strength of its people? This is the most laughable lie told to gullible S'poreans who can't take a few hard truths in the name of progress.

Alright, not my fight....so I am out of this sub-discussion.

ok, but you haven't said how you'd feel if your principal tells your rugby team to leave for ACS. I guessing you'd be fine with it?

So you're speculating about the board? Fair enough, but when you say this is obvious, or that is obvious, I start to believe that you have some inside information, and I start to have serious self doubt as I am unable to discern something so obvious. I'm gullible that way Anyway, I have no suggestions since I'm not privy to any of that information, so what's the point of such speculation?

You see why I hate to be dragged into analogies? I'm speaking at the level of a lowly ex-student and old boy, and suddenly we're talking about corporate governance in a school? And about governing S'pore in her formative years? No no too high level for me liao. Btw a softer approach doesn't mean lily-livered, and how soft does one have to be to be considered lily-livered. Because I want to avoid that. ACS didn't teach us how to look into alternate universes so I can't tell for sure if we'd be better off or not in bizarro singapore.

I'm speculating that what you meant above is that principals can exhibit some elements of a CEO's behaviour. Well yes, since they are leaders, i would be mildly surprised if they didn't exhibit err.... leadership qualities.

Ya I guess it's not really apparent that I'm critiquing his credentials as an educator. It's probably mainly because I'm not critiquing his credentials as an educator. Because if I'm critiquing his credentials as an educator, then it would be apparent. And obviously so.

Wonder where you got that impression though, all I said was they appoint educators as principals and not CEOs.

Ha ha, you caught me out on some hyperbole. However, you have offered nothing up to defend your position.

I mentioned CEO because you opened the door on a school being an institute of education as opposed to being a company, and I assumed you were speaking from a position of understanding corporate governance.

You are not critiquing his credentials as an educator, you don't know why the board appointed him, and you don't disagree that he needs to exhibit CEO behaviours......

so your quibble comes down to.....? Hurt feelings that he suggested that the better students go elsewhere?[/quote]I opened the door? I was trying to avoid these comparisons in the first place haha. I don't bother defending my position too vigourously because, what's the point. If you can defend a man you do not know, nothing i say can change your mind. But i think you have vastly underestimated how strongly acsians feel about this. If it's just some hurt feelings, would there be resignations, petitions etc?

Let me give you another analogy, since you love them so much and you know how i love to please Say a Msian, just for convenience's sake, came to spore, took up citizenship, and promptly became PM. He's a capable person, but encourages our youth to migrate to msia for more opportunities. I certainly wouldn't be pleased no matter what he can do for spore. I'd be thinking, i would rather a sporean who certainly can be equally capable be PM, because the things he does would more likely be tempered with the love of his country.

Now do you think MM Lee would think \"hey what an awesome guy, he speaks his mind. We should all be like him. After all, he's looking out for our citizens' interests by asking them to migrate to a place with more opportunities.\"? I doubt it. Btw i said msia but it's just an example, before you start comparing between the 2 countries.

3Boys:

jencrs, the irony is that he DID deliver, perhaps not for you, but for the generations of ACSians after you.


This is too funny, an SA boy defending a Rafflesian from criticisms of a ACSian.... :lol:

Irony? There's no irony. I didn't say he didn't deliver, neither did I say he did a bad job. It just irks me to hear so many waxing lyrical about Ong, without any idea of what he was like.

And yes, too funny haha. I also have too much time on my hands and it has always been my bane.

3Boys:

I actually couldn't care less which school my Principal came from. Having a history can both be a help and a hindrance. The right man for the right job is all that matters, I say. Maybe that's where you an I differ, I don't have a hang-up about which old boy was my headmaster.


As to the board, yes, I am speculating, but I have seen similar inside vs outside hiring decisions at the top level and the reasons are invariably as I have mentioned above. I am open to your and other suggestions as to their motive for appointing him. I had a quick scan of some of the present board members, and there are a fair number of industry luminaries. Yes, ACS is a school, the primary goal is education and holistic upbringing. However, many aspects of running a school are similar to running a company. Why else is the set-up at the governance level like that of a company? Actually there is an article I read somewhere that school principals do not some elements of CEO behaviour or the place would just fall apart. Anyway, are you critiquing his credentials as an educator? Because that was not apparent earlier.

MM Lee? I shudder to think how we would be if he were Lily-livered. Why does Singapore have any right to be different from our neighbours? On the strength of its people? This is the most laughable lie told to gullible S'poreans who can't take a few hard truths in the name of progress.

Alright, not my fight....so I am out of this sub-discussion.

ok, but you haven't said how you'd feel if your principal tells your rugby team to leave for ACS. I guessing you'd be fine with it?

So you're speculating about the board? Fair enough, but when you say this is obvious, or that is obvious, I start to believe that you have some inside information, and I start to have serious self doubt as I am unable to discern something so obvious. I'm gullible that way Anyway, I have no suggestions since I'm not privy to any of that information, so what's the point of such speculation?

You see why I hate to be dragged into analogies? I'm speaking at the level of a lowly ex-student and old boy, and suddenly we're talking about corporate governance in a school? And about governing S'pore in her formative years? No no too high level for me liao. Btw a softer approach doesn't mean lily-livered, and how soft does one have to be to be considered lily-livered. Because I want to avoid that. ACS didn't teach us how to look into alternate universes so I can't tell for sure if we'd be better off or not in bizarro singapore.

I'm speculating that what you meant above is that principals can exhibit some elements of a CEO's behaviour. Well yes, since they are leaders, i would be mildly surprised if they didn't exhibit err.... leadership qualities.

Ya I guess it's not really apparent that I'm critiquing his credentials as an educator. It's probably mainly because I'm not critiquing his credentials as an educator. Because if I'm critiquing his credentials as an educator, then it would be apparent. And obviously so.

Wonder where you got that impression though, all I said was they appoint educators as principals and not CEOs.