Adam Khoo: The expats will rule Singapore
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peterch:
I'm currently taking a diploma Chinese course and 80% of my coursemates are mainland chinese. Out of these, 80% are looking to get the diploma to apply for PR in Singapore so that they can get better paying job, save enough to put their kids in school etc and go back to China. 10% are married to Singaporean and looking to receive this diploma to enable them to work so they can earn some money and not waste them time here. 5% moved here with their hubby (and kid), they have not decided yet if they are going to make singapore their home, but at this moment, they are still planning to go back. 5% married to locals and running their own chinese enrichment centres and they may not move back to China and are mentally prepared that their boys may need to serve NS.
I think not all PRs will do this :D, we should notice what's the purpose of residing to Singapore and apply PR. If their purpose is to earned as much as they could, then they may be doing like what you quote. But I know lots of my PR friends that they reside here as they want to settle down here.tamarind:
I mean they will go back when they retire, not when their kids are still young. Note that most people will retire at 60 and live until 80 to 90 years old, so that is a very long time.
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So maybe, don't judge all the PRs flatly are the same. Some PRs are more 'Singapore' than some Singaporeans. :?
So from my classmates, you can see that majority is still going back.
The sample class size is 50 people.
But I guess PRs from different countries they have different thinking and culture expectations. I spoke to a few Chinese PRs, those who are doing well back in China, prob won't come to singapore. the reasons i got were that the quality of life is better there. And i couldn't agree more! Even in cities like shanghai, you can still make a decent living if you work hard and you can get good quality help at a fraction of what you are paying here.
Maybe i should consider retiring in some nice picturesque Chinese town so that my money can last me longer... maybe I'm the Singaporean who doesn't think like a Singaporean?? But i love Singapore! -
minnie2004:
Hi!I'm puzzled by all the debates regarding PRs and the hostility toward non-ang moh foreigners in Singapore. First of all, the so-called \"PR\" in Singapore is not really \"permanent\" as it has to be renewed every 5 years or so. So what's point talking about loyalty toward a country in which you don't have permanent residence in? The biggest joke is to ask PRs to serve NS. If you are a citizen of country A where you have the right of permanent residence, and a PR of Singapore where your right of residence is subject to renewal, which side do you think you'll be on if country A goes into war with Singapore?
In HK where I come from, the \"P\" in \"PR\" really means \"permanent\". Also, there's no differentiation (or more appropriately, discrimination) vs citizens and they enjoy exactly the same benefits as every other HK passport holders. No higher school fees, higher maid's levy, higher hospital bills, higher anything designed to differentiate PRs from the locals. That's one of the reasons HK is attracting so many \"foreign talents\" despite its polluted air and high costs of living. Maybe HK is an exception as people there are not as patriotic as Singaporeans due to a lack of nationalistic education in schools. But this also makes foreigners more readily accepted by the locals. This is what makes HK a true cosmopolitan city.
It's only human nature that people continue to seek what they consider a better life for them and their family. That's what brought so many Chinese immigrants to Singapore in the first place when China was suffering from war and poverty early last century. These people were just looking for a better life in a foreign land.
If there's war or natural disaster here, would you not bring your family to a safer place? If there's a better job opportunity in another country, does it mean it's disloyal to your country by moving to that country? Do you want to be discriminated if you're a foreigner working in that country?
I hope I'm not offending any Singaporeans. I just want to live in a peaceful and harmonious society without all the hatred, racism and discrimination, where ever that is.
\"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one\"
:celebrate:
What kind of benefits do you have in HK? how much do you pay for schools, govt hospitals, and such? -
Hi tree nymph,
The govt schools and govt-subsidized schools are free from P1 to S3 for both PRs and locals as part of the 9-year compulsory education program. Just have to pay for the books.
As for hospitals, as long as you have a HKID (doesn't even need to be a PR), you only pay a flat fee of HKD100 per day (<SGD20) for the big wards which covers all the expenses, including food, operations and drugs. Outpatient services range from HKD60 to HKD100.
http://www.ha.org.hk/visitor/ha_visitor_index.asp?Parent_ID=108&Content_ID=349&Dimension=100
There are also no difference or restrictions in property investments for foreigners/PRs/citizens, except maybe on securing bank financing. Other social benefits such as Social Security Assistance are the same too as long as you've lived in HK for over 7 years.
Basically I wasn't aware of any govt policies which differentiate foreigners/PRs/citizens, and there's no distinction between PRs and citizens except for the passports they hold. -
tamarind:
You are right; but it is so even before retirement. Not long ago I read on Internet that some young people started to return to their (small) home town cities because their know their will never afford to buy an apartment in Shanghai.
Perhaps people in Shanghai will go and live in the countryside after they retire ?
My hubby said that his colleague will return to China in the future, because she is afraid that medical fees will be too high in Singapore when she is old. -
Peterch:
It is strange that no Singaporeans have come out to answer the question of what will happen in times of war and disaster. Only PRs have answered this. I do expect this answer from a PR because you have left your home country anyway.
Maybe.....just maybe..... if these things really happen to this land, not only PRs will flee, I think lots of citizens will flee too. We have to be realistic about this. One will never know what will they do until we are experiencing things that very bad.... This is human nature, they will seek for safety of their family first on top of other things
My kids and I are born in Singapore. Without this country, I will not be what I am today. I wish that my kids will grow up knowing what is loyalty. Sadly, it seems that many Singaporeans do not know the meaning of loyalty. When there is an invasion, how many Singaporeans will stay back to defend the country ?
If you know about history, you will know that in times of war, it is not so easy to flee the country. Have you heard of the Vietnam boat people ?
Also note that I do not judge all PRs the same way. I know there are PRs who have become citizens and send their sons to NS.
In fact, although I was born in Singapore, both my parents were PRs, and I was not born a citizen. I became a citizen only when I was in P2. I still remember being interviewed by a civil servant and I had to show him my school report book hahaha.minnie2004:
I want to clarify that I never ask that PRs should serve NS. You have misunderstood what I wrote. Only citizens who have pledged their loyalty to Singapore should serve NS.The biggest joke is to ask PRs to serve NS.
I am just reminding Singaporeans that the good times will not last forever. I am only hoping that more efforts are put into encouraging PRs to become citizens.minnie2004:
Who is discriminating you ?I hope I'm not offending any Singaporeans. I just want to live in a peaceful and harmonious society without all the hatred, racism and discrimination, where ever that is.
-
Sorry guys for starting to be off the topic.
minnie2004:
Very well said! One more question that puzzled me for more than 10 years. While I am not against NS imposed on PRs' kids, they should be given the right to vote. Whether it is interesting to vote in Singapore is another story. It's just a balance between duty and right.I'm puzzled by all the debates regarding PRs and the hostility toward non-ang moh foreigners in Singapore. First of all, the so-called \"PR\" in Singapore is not really \"permanent\" as it has to be renewed every 5 years or so. So what's point talking about loyalty toward a country in which you don't have permanent residence in? The biggest joke is to ask PRs to serve NS. If you are a citizen of country A where you have the right of permanent residence, and a PR of Singapore where your right of residence is subject to renewal, which side do you think you'll be on if country A goes into war with Singapore?
In HK where I come from, the \"P\" in \"PR\" really means \"permanent\". Also, there's no differentiation (or more appropriately, discrimination) vs citizens and they enjoy exactly the same benefits as every other HK passport holders. No higher school fees, higher maid's levy, higher hospital bills, higher anything designed to differentiate PRs from the locals. That's one of the reasons HK is attracting so many \"foreign talents\" despite its polluted air and high costs of living. Maybe HK is an exception as people there are not as patriotic as Singaporeans due to a lack of nationalistic education in schools. But this also makes foreigners more readily accepted by the locals. This is what makes HK a true cosmopolitan city.
It's only human nature that people continue to seek what they consider a better life for them and their family. That's what brought so many Chinese immigrants to Singapore in the first place when China was suffering from war and poverty early last century. These people were just looking for a better life in a foreign land.
If there's war or natural disaster here, would you not bring your family to a safer place? If there's a better job opportunity in another country, does it mean it's disloyal to your country by moving to that country? Do you want to be discriminated if you're a foreigner working in that country?
I hope I'm not offending any Singaporeans. I just want to live in a peaceful and harmonious society without all the hatred, racism and discrimination, where ever that is.
\"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one\"
:celebrate:tree nymph:
Hi 'tree nymph', I'd just remind you that your sample is pretty small and most of all your classmates are not PRs, at least for the time being. Also, it seems that the government is tightening PR issuing.I'm currently taking a diploma Chinese course and 80% of my coursemates are mainland chinese. Out of these, 80% are looking to get the diploma to apply for PR in Singapore so that they can get better paying job, save enough to put their kids in school etc and go back to China. 10% are married to Singaporean and looking to receive this diploma to enable them to work so they can earn some money and not waste them time here. 5% moved here with their hubby (and kid), they have not decided yet if they are going to make singapore their home, but at this moment, they are still planning to go back. 5% married to locals and running their own chinese enrichment centres and they may not move back to China and are mentally prepared that their boys may need to serve NS.
So from my classmates, you can see that majority is still going back. The sample class size is 50 people. -
minnie2004:
If this is the case, HK may be the most European city in Asia. In France (that I know well), foreigners have ALL the benefits except the right to vote. But the latter issue has been raised many times since Mitterand. In Asia, we often take differentiation or even discrimination for granted. Several years ago, I read in the Staff Manual of A*STAR IME (Institute of Microelectronics) that PhDs from US/Europe/Japan are entitled to a housing subsidy of $2500/month and those PhD from China and India for $1500 (or $700?). Locals returning home with a PhD have nothing. Now things have changed, generally little or no more housing subsidy is given to anyone. But this does not mean that differentiation is becoming less. All the contrary. Just look at the new policies on medical care and university fees.Hi tree nymph,
The govt schools and govt-subsidized schools are free from P1 to S3 for both PRs and locals as part of the 9-year compulsory education program. Just have to pay for the books.
As for hospitals, as long as you have a HKID (doesn't even need to be a PR), you only pay a flat fee of HKD100 per day (<SGD20) for the big wards which covers all the expenses, including food, operations and drugs. Outpatient services range from HKD60 to HKD100.
http://www.ha.org.hk/visitor/ha_visitor_index.asp?Parent_ID=108&Content_ID=349&Dimension=100
There are also no difference or restrictions in property investments for foreigners/PRs/citizens, except maybe on securing bank financing. Other social benefits such as Social Security Assistance are the same too as long as you've lived in HK for over 7 years.
Basically I wasn't aware of any govt policies which differentiate foreigners/PRs/citizens, and there's no distinction between PRs and citizens except for the passports they hold. -
tamarind:
Wow, should I go ahead and list down all the govt policies against PRs and foreigners? Higher school fees, higher medical bills, higher maid levy, no baby bonus, no child-care holidays, lower priority in registering primary schools and maybe many more I'm not aware of. On the other hand, PRs pay their taxes like everyone else (maybe higher as most are professionals earning above-average salaries), have no voting rights or any say in any govt policies, but are obliged to send their sons to NS.
Who is discriminating you ?minnie2004:
I hope I'm not offending any Singaporeans. I just want to live in a peaceful and harmonious society without all the hatred, racism and discrimination, where ever that is.
What can you call these except for discrimination? These policies are far from being considered \"fair\". In fact it is another govt policy to \"discriminate\" foreigners in order to make them become citizens.
Becoming a citizen is not something you can force upon someone. You can't force someone to love your country just like you can't force someone to love you. What you attract is just someone who become a citizen for the sake of benefits, or someone who marries you for your $$. -
Cheval:
In Asia, we often take differentiation or even discrimination for granted.
True. The most extreme case being Malaysia. That's why you see so many expats leaving the country. Personally I won't live or make any investment in that country. -
minnie2004:
Wow, should I go ahead and list down all the govt policies against PRs and foreigners? Higher school fees, higher medical bills, higher maid levy, no baby bonus, no child-care holidays, lower priority in registering primary schools and maybe many more I'm not aware of. On the other hand, PRs pay their taxes like everyone else (maybe higher as most are professionals earning above-average salaries), have no voting rights or any say in any govt policies, but are obliged to send their sons to NS.
Who is discriminating you ?tamarind:
[quote=\"minnie2004\"]
I hope I'm not offending any Singaporeans. I just want to live in a peaceful and harmonious society without all the hatred, racism and discrimination, where ever that is.
What can you call these except for discrimination? These policies are far from being considered \"fair\". In fact it is another govt policy to \"discriminate\" foreigners in order to make them become citizens.
Becoming a citizen is not something you can force upon someone. You can't force someone to love your country just like you can't force someone to love you. What you attract is just someone who become a citizen for the sake of benefits, or someone who marries you for your $$.[/quote]
Oh I see. You call these policies discrimination. Thanks for the insights. The government should probably listen to the PRs and think about other ways to attract them to become citizens. Do you have any suggestions ?
You cannot compare where you come from, Hong Kong, to Singapore. Hong Kong is part of China. Singapore is on its own, surrounded by countries that will not always be friendly. If anything happens, no one will help us. There are many reasons why the government cannot have the same policies as Hong Kong.
Who oblige you to send your son to NS ? PRs have all the freedom not to send their sons to NS.
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