Pei Hwa Presbyterian Primary

[limnieng]

cherlynang:

I asked my dd, she say devotion is sang after national anthem. Hence cannot come later. They switch the sequence. Any non-christian encounter this before?

Yes, that's another thing that doesn't quite sit right with me. How can the P say PHPPS adheres to the stipulation by MOE to be a secular school, promise not to proselytize, and then make adjustment to school procedures that forces all students from various religions to do devotion!! To me, that's just religiously insensitive and wrong!!

Coupled with her stance during the P1 presentation, I find her management of the school worrying.

[Jennifer]

limnieng:

cherlynang:

I asked my dd, she say devotion is sang after national anthem. Hence cannot come later. They switch the sequence. Any non-christian encounter this before?

Yes, that's another thing that doesn't quite sit right with me. How can the P say PHPPS adheres to the stipulation by MOE to be a secular school, promise not to proselytize, and then make adjustment to school procedures that forces all students from various religions to do devotion!! To me, that's just religiously insensitive and wrong!!

Coupled with her stance during the P1 presentation, I find her management of the school worrying.

Both my boys were from PH. We did not have any issue with the Christian Values sessions, even though we are not Christians. In my opinion, it is good to have an open mind to learn about the teachings of other religions, this way we grow to be understanding and be respectful of other religions practices.

You can always call and speak to the form teacher to voice your concerns.

[mummychua]

limnieng:

cherlynang:

I asked my dd, she say devotion is sang after national anthem. Hence cannot come later. They switch the sequence. Any non-christian encounter this before?

Yes, that's another thing that doesn't quite sit right with me. How can the P say PHPPS adheres to the stipulation by MOE to be a secular school, promise not to proselytize, and then make adjustment to school procedures that forces all students from various religions to do devotion!! To me, that's just religiously insensitive and wrong!!

Coupled with her stance during the P1 presentation, I find her management of the school worrying.

our family is not religious but i do understand why the school do the national anthem before devotion. that's probably to get all students in at the same time. otherwise parent will start opting out and get their kids to sch at a later time. I'm not sure if it's possible, perhaps you could request to have your kids sit out of devotion and do quiet reading instead?

[aobisi]

mummychua:

aobisi:

hi,


me is so excited as we are registering our DD in 2017 for 2018 in-take. but would like to seek opinions from all daddies & mummies here.

my wifey is ex-student and we are relocating near my parent as they helped to take care of my 3 children 5yrs, 3yrs & 1yrs, from central area to redhill area.

does it make sense to apply for PHPP? i am finding a hard time justifying why our child should go through the long daily commute.

-- ao

For me it doesn't make sense to send kids to a school more than 2km away from your place. let's assume that PHPPS will continue to have p1 in the afternoon session. sch off at 6.30pm, your child will have to commute home, assuming it takes 1hr, reach home at 7.30pm, shower, eat dinner by then it will be 8plus or 9pm. Homework? Do it next morning? will the grandparents be able to help?

hi, thanks so much for your response. i share the same sentiment. no doubt PH is a good school, but i just can't convincing myself on that. aside to long commute, still have CCA, additional lesson, etc.. :slapshead:

[limnieng]

mummychua:

limnieng:

[quote=\"cherlynang\"]I asked my dd, she say devotion is sang after national anthem. Hence cannot come later. They switch the sequence. Any non-christian encounter this before?

Yes, that's another thing that doesn't quite sit right with me. How can the P say PHPPS adheres to the stipulation by MOE to be a secular school, promise not to proselytize, and then make adjustment to school procedures that forces all students from various religions to do devotion!! To me, that's just religiously insensitive and wrong!!

Coupled with her stance during the P1 presentation, I find her management of the school worrying.

our family is not religious but i do understand why the school do the national anthem before devotion. that's probably to get all students in at the same time. otherwise parent will start opting out and get their kids to sch at a later time. I'm not sure if it's possible, perhaps you could request to have your kids sit out of devotion and do quiet reading instead?[/quote]I'm a P1 parent, so our child starts school in the afternoon. The national anthem is sang after school. However, from what I gathered and information from my child, there is some sort devotion service, religious talk and hymn singing at 12:30pm before class starts.

I emailed the following to the school yesterday but they have yet to respond:

\"Pei Hwa is a government-aided school with religious affiliation, and thus it is understandable that there are devotion service before class.

However, MOE clearly stipulates that such religious activities have to be optional due to the multi-religious nature of our society. The school is also obliged to inform parents of any such activities, and furthermore provide the option for our children to not participate. According to a forum letter dated 8 Jan 2014 written by the Deputy Director-General of Education (Schools), schools also have to provide ‘alternative learning programmes for students who opt out’.

From my discussion with other parents and the information provided to me by my child, the children are being forcefully kept (by means of no other options expressly provided) in the school hall to listen to talks on ‘Jesus’ and engage in the singing of hymns starting at 12:30pm before class starts. I find this to be oppressive and in direct contradiction to MOE’s directives. It also offends the religious sensitivities of both child and parents.

I also refer to the new principal’s (Mdm Elsie Tan) presentation on the first day of school, where she euthusiastically express her religious affiliation and joy at being back at a mission school, but also promises not to proselytize. Yet this current arrangement of compulsory devotion service before class seems to be at odds with what was conveyed.

I do hope my above understanding is a case of miscommunication. If not, can the school please clearly inform parents of the option of not participating in devotion service, and how we are able to exercise this option.

Thank you.\"

Today my child came back and asked me how could the clever fish evolved to be a dinosaur if God created everything (We've been reading a children's book called \"The world's cleverest fish\" to her since young that explains evolution). I asked her why she would ask me that, and she said that's what she was told during the afternoon devotion service. I told her that's a story that some people in the world believe but that she would have to decide for herself. She then asked me what I believe. I said I believe there's evolution. She then said she wants to change a daddy because I contradict what the school says.

I hope the school understands the severity of this problem, and takes the MOE's directive to be a secular school seriously. If not, I'll be forced to escalate the issue.

[Jennifer]

If the school admin dept is still manned by the same group of staff, then I won't be surprised if you do not get a reply at all.


Do call up to request to meet the Form Teacher to bring up your concerns n to understand exactly the school policy on excusing non-Christians pupils during devotion and what options are available to your child, or whether you can request for alternatives.

If all else fails, then your option might be to transfer to a non-mission school.

As for your child wanting to change parent due to one incident, I like to say, many times, little children see the formal school setting as more respectful and might say things which upset the parents at times.

I remembered telling my boys to go n live with their teachers as they were more obedient in school under the supervision of teachers than at home :rotflmao:

[limnieng]

Jennifer:

If the school admin dept is still manned by the same group of staff, then I won't be surprised if you do not get a reply at all.


Do call up to request to meet the Form Teacher to bring up your concerns n to understand exactly the school policy on excusing non-Christians pupils during devotion and what options are available to your child, or whether you can request for alternatives.

If all else fails, then your option might be to transfer to a non-mission school.

As for your child wanting to change parent due to one incident, I like to say, many times, little children see the formal school setting as more respectful and might say things which upset the parents at times.

I remembered telling my boys to go n live with their teachers as they were more obedient in school under the supervision of teachers than at home :rotflmao:

Thanks Jennifer for your response.

I'm not that upset about my child's outburst, I understand they're dealing with instructions (sometimes contradictory) from different people.

However, I must disagree that I have to adhere to school policy on this matter. This is not simply a matter of schools having the freedom to determine how they want to run their school. This is an issue that violates MOE's directive that all school have to be secular schools and refrain from proselytising regardless of religious affiliation!

Government schools with religious affiliations are still public institutions, and if they are allowed to proselytize to their pupil regardless of the pupils or parents' religion, and then say \"if you don't like it, get out!\", that akin to hijacking governmental resource and infrastructure (i.e. taxpayer's money and the government school system) to promote individual religious agenda. To tell parents and students that the option is either to accept the school's proselytising or to get out is blatant bigotry in a public institution.

Allow me to repost an extract from the PM's National Day Rally speech in 2009:

\"Our schools are another example where we have common space, and where all races and religions interact. In government schools, but even in mission schools. Even in church schools run by religious groups, there are clear rules which MOE has set so that students of all faiths will feel comfortable. You might ask: Why not allow mission schools to introduce prayers or Bible studies as compulsory parts of the school’s activity or as part of school assembly. Why not?

Why not let those who are not Christian or do not want a Christian environment go to a government school or go to a Buddhist school? Well, the reason why not is because if we do that, then we will have Christians in Christian schools, Buddhists in Buddhist schools, Muslims in schools with only Muslim children and so on. And I think that that is not good for Singapore.

Therefore, we have rules to keep all our schools secular and the religious groups understand and accept this. Take for example SJI. It is a St Joseph’s Catholics brother school, but it has many non-Catholic students including quite a number of Malay students who study there. And one year the Josephian of the year in 2003 was a Malay student, Salman Mohamed Khair. And he told Berita Harian that initially his family was somewhat worried about admitting him to a Catholic school and he himself was worried, afraid because he did not know what to expect but he still went because of SJI’s good record. He said “Now, I feel fortunate to be in SJI. Although I was educated in a Catholic environment, religion never became an issue”.

So indeed that is how it should work and I know it works because I understand that Malay students in SJI often attend Friday prayers at Ba’alwi Mosque nearby, still wearing their school uniforms. And SJI thinks it is fine, the mosque thinks it is find, the students think it is fine and I think it is fine too. That is the way it should be.\"

So I think MOE and the government's stance on this issue is very clear, and if my understanding on what PHPPS is doing is accurate, it is in direct violation of school guidelines and causing harm to the social fabric of our multi-religious society.

[Jennifer]

I do understand your point of view.


Hope you and the school can reach a solution soon.

[limnieng]

Jennifer:

I do understand your point of view.


Hope you and the school can reach a solution soon.

Thanks Jennifer.

It is interesting though that you said you understand my point of view, which actually means that you understand but don't agree with it, which is fine.

But I'm actually very interested to hear another point of view on this matter of no proselytising activities in governmental schools based on MOE's directives. I'm open to the possibility that my view may be deficient.

Hope to hear from you.

[phtthp]

limnieng:

I'm not that upset about my child's outburst, I understand they're dealing with instructions (sometimes contradictory) from different people.

However, I must disagree that I have to adhere to school policy on this matter. This is not simply a matter of schools having the freedom to determine how they want to run their school. This is an issue that violates MOE's directive that all school have to be secular schools and refrain from proselytising regardless of religious affiliation!

Government schools with religious affiliations are still public institutions, and if they are allowed to proselytize to their pupil regardless of the pupils or parents' religion, and then say \"if you don't like it, get out!\", that akin to hijacking governmental resource and infrastructure (i.e. taxpayer's money and the government school system) to promote individual religious agenda. To tell parents and students that the option is either to accept the school's proselytising or to get out is blatant bigotry in a public institution.

Allow me to repost an extract from the PM's National Day Rally speech in 2009:

\"Our schools are another example where we have common space, and where all races and religions interact. In government schools, but even in mission schools. Even in church schools run by religious groups, there are clear rules which MOE has set so that students of all faiths will feel comfortable. You might ask: Why not allow mission schools to introduce prayers or Bible studies as compulsory parts of the school’s activity or as part of school assembly. Why not?

Why not let those who are not Christian or do not want a Christian environment go to a government school or go to a Buddhist school? Well, the reason why not is because if we do that, then we will have Christians in Christian schools, Buddhists in Buddhist schools, Muslims in schools with only Muslim children and so on. And I think that that is not good for Singapore.

Therefore, we have rules to keep all our schools secular and the religious groups understand and accept this. Take for example SJI. It is a St Joseph’s Catholics brother school, but it has many non-Catholic students including quite a number of Malay students who study there. And one year the Josephian of the year in 2003 was a Malay student, Salman Mohamed Khair. And he told Berita Harian that initially his family was somewhat worried about admitting him to a Catholic school and he himself was worried, afraid because he did not know what to expect but he still went because of SJI’s good record. He said “Now, I feel fortunate to be in SJI. Although I was educated in a Catholic environment, religion never became an issue”.

So indeed that is how it should work and I know it works because I understand that Malay students in SJI often attend Friday prayers at Ba’alwi Mosque nearby, still wearing their school uniforms. And SJI thinks it is fine, the mosque thinks it is find, the students think it is fine and I think it is fine too. That is the way it should be.\"

So I think MOE and the government's stance on this issue is very clear, and if my understanding on what PHPPS is doing is accurate, it is in direct violation of school guidelines and causing harm to the social fabric of our multi-religious society.

currently, are there any Malay students from Muslim family, or any Indian students from Hindu family, studying inside Pei Hwa Presbyterian primary, but taking Chinese as 2nd language ?

(these Malay & Indian students : possible that one of their parents may be a Chinese, can be a Chinese father or a Chinese mother)

during devotion time early morning, where do these students go & occupy their time ?
surely there must be an option to opt out, if students & families totally feel un-comfortable, attending devotion time